Adkpk
Addicted to ArboristSite
After going over my mistake over and over again I came to the conclusion that wind was the culprit to my mishap. Seemed like an easy tree to bring down but live and learn.
Dropped into high tension
- Thread starter ciscoguy01
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After going over my mistake over and over again I came to the conclusion that wind was the culprit to my mishap. Seemed like an easy tree to bring down but live and learn.
juststumps
ArboristSite Guru
all electricity causes muscle contractions..
dc,, contracts
ac contracts,, but it flips back and forth...
hence the thrown away thing...
tree md
Addicted to ArboristSite
Yeah, and high tension lines don't flip back in forth, they grab...
ciscoguy01
Addicted to ArboristSite
Wind
Yea, I don't think that helped a bit either, however, the tree was only 24', don't think it was up high enough to be affected. My cousin told me to wait for a windy day when it would be in my favor though, but, then again, same thing, I just plain made a bad judgement call. As for the wife, she was over 20' away, and I sent her runnin' just in case. Before a tree even start to really fall, I'm usually long gone and not hanging around to see anything. Hence why I had her runnin also...
Yea, I don't think that helped a bit either, however, the tree was only 24', don't think it was up high enough to be affected. My cousin told me to wait for a windy day when it would be in my favor though, but, then again, same thing, I just plain made a bad judgement call. As for the wife, she was over 20' away, and I sent her runnin' just in case. Before a tree even start to really fall, I'm usually long gone and not hanging around to see anything. Hence why I had her runnin also...
juststumps
ArboristSite Guru
i'll chill bro,, its your life !!!! your one of the lucky ones....
a few questions,,
how did you get knocked of your a$$ with 110 ??
why did you go back and **** around with 240 ,, and get hit again ??
i don't like claims like this!!!!!! i got hurt less with 240 than 110,, so 110 is bad... you won't get hurt as bad with 240....
you just GOT LUCKY !!!
but, i'm chilling out... not my problemo....just hope people don't follow your mind set....
clearance
Addicted to ArboristSite
High voltage, not high tension. there ain't much tension in any powerline, at all. They are rather slack in fact. I wonder where this term came from. When I was young I thought that radial arm saws where "radio alarm saws"
Today at work we were talking about accidents, voltages, gradients and so forth. The utility inspector and all of us utility tree guys, interesting as always, anyways, stay safe, if you are not trained, stay away from doing treework around powerlines.
Today at work we were talking about accidents, voltages, gradients and so forth. The utility inspector and all of us utility tree guys, interesting as always, anyways, stay safe, if you are not trained, stay away from doing treework around powerlines.
Dadatwins
Addicted to ArboristSite
Very true, actually ANY overhead line is to be considered energized, does not have to be a power line. There was a Virginia lineman that was killed a few years ago from leaning on a metal guyline from a street pole. He leaned on the guyline on the ground and it shorted up top against a hot line and it was all over. Freak accident but anything is possible. Be careful.
ciscoguy01
Addicted to ArboristSite
Omfg
That is great!!!! Dude, that is like A1 footage there. As for a couple things, I work on utility poles all the time, since I work for a cable company.... That dude that got fried from leaning on the Guidewire did a VERY bad thing. We ALWAYS use a voltage detecter on the pole BEFORE climbing it. I even test mine before every climb to make sure the dang thing is working, ALWAYS.... Everyone does dumb things, I just wouldn't wanna be close if something went wrong. One thing I do know is electric wires are aluminum, which means they are not near as strong as other lines, i.e. we use 10,000lb rated guide wires for our lines and phones etc... Their power lines won't hold 1/2 that weight and will snap alot easier... On the video, the electric company should've had something in place that would act as a breaker. About a week ago my buddy came here, from NYSEG(that's our electric company) and said it only will arc for a few seconds then get kicked. They have stuff in place in case of this. Not sure about where your at, butttt, they should've had some sort of failsafe in place.
As far as for Andy getting zapped by 110 and then by 208/220, if you got cut by your chainsaw, would you cry like a girl and not touch another one (wellllll, you might, but not me or most)? I'd hope not, you'd just try and be a little more careful right??? I think that's what the dude was saying. He's been zapped by both, I've been hit by 110, heck, I think everyone has at least once. If not, try it, it's really not that bad. VERY unlikely you'll die. Never been hit by 220, dont' really have an incling to either. Over in Europe everything is 220, because it's safer. Higher voltages tend to be. That's what Andy was saying. People sometimes just get going so far on a tyrade and ready to persecute w/out trying to find the point of what was being said. Now, lets all have a beer and relax.
Dude
That is great!!!! Dude, that is like A1 footage there. As for a couple things, I work on utility poles all the time, since I work for a cable company.... That dude that got fried from leaning on the Guidewire did a VERY bad thing. We ALWAYS use a voltage detecter on the pole BEFORE climbing it. I even test mine before every climb to make sure the dang thing is working, ALWAYS.... Everyone does dumb things, I just wouldn't wanna be close if something went wrong. One thing I do know is electric wires are aluminum, which means they are not near as strong as other lines, i.e. we use 10,000lb rated guide wires for our lines and phones etc... Their power lines won't hold 1/2 that weight and will snap alot easier... On the video, the electric company should've had something in place that would act as a breaker. About a week ago my buddy came here, from NYSEG(that's our electric company) and said it only will arc for a few seconds then get kicked. They have stuff in place in case of this. Not sure about where your at, butttt, they should've had some sort of failsafe in place.
As far as for Andy getting zapped by 110 and then by 208/220, if you got cut by your chainsaw, would you cry like a girl and not touch another one (wellllll, you might, but not me or most)? I'd hope not, you'd just try and be a little more careful right??? I think that's what the dude was saying. He's been zapped by both, I've been hit by 110, heck, I think everyone has at least once. If not, try it, it's really not that bad. VERY unlikely you'll die. Never been hit by 220, dont' really have an incling to either. Over in Europe everything is 220, because it's safer. Higher voltages tend to be. That's what Andy was saying. People sometimes just get going so far on a tyrade and ready to persecute w/out trying to find the point of what was being said. Now, lets all have a beer and relax.
Dude
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I think that's what the dude was saying. He's been zapped by both, I've been hit by 110, heck, I think everyone has at least once. If not, try it, it's really not that bad. VERY unlikely you'll die. Never been hit by 220, dont' really have an incling to either. Over in Europe everything is 220, because it's safer. Higher voltages tend to be. That's what Andy was saying.
Now, lets all have a beer and relax.
Dude
Hey Dude,
I have followed this thread with particular interest, as in most cases, one can learn a lot from other people's experience or mistakes. It's difficult for me to make comments about the tree felling part as other AS members are much more competent in this matter.
However, your comments about the 'low risk' with power lines or even domestic power circuits are not funny at all. I have worked a few years as a sales engineer for a high voltage switchgear manufacturer and everybody working in this business has HUGE respect for safety measures.
Power lines in europe are either 3, 15, 35, 70, 150 or 380 kV and are called "power" lines, because they transmit huge quantities of electrical power over a long distance. (P = U*I) The HV is required to keep electrical current levels to a minimum, while power losses due to electrical resistance of the cable are directly related (P = R.I²), NOT because the HV is safer :censored:
Air is a good electrical insulator, and as a rule of thumb, a distance of 1 cm/kV is required to be safe from producing an arc, BUT this value can be influenced a lot by air density, humidity, etc, so always stay away as far as you can.
The most important fact that most forget is that not a particular voltage kills a person, but the current density that flows through his body. If you get juiced, it all depends on the resistance value of your body AND the power of the energy source whether you get killed or not (and that value depends on the humidity of your skin, the shoes you wear, etc.) and the power strength of the line you touched.
In the case of power lines, one can create a shortcut to earth while entering the conductivity area with an object or a person and an arc will be created. The electrical power will generally travel to earth by taking the road of the shortest electrical resistance. That can be the tree, a truck boom or the person itself, or a combination of it, but as there are so many variables involved, no one can really predict which way the arc will travel in case of an accident (same with lightning) . If the arc will travel trough a person, he will get ‘fried’ in an instant. In most cases however, the arc will choose a tree (direct way to earth) or a steel object as conductor, but the arc creates such a tremendous heat, that anybody in reasonable distance of the arc will face severe burning wounds, if not lethal. The latter are the most common injuries involved with HV accidents, but unfortunately many victims are no longer with us to testimony.
Therefor, it’s important to stay away from power lines at all time if you have no reason to be there. And another thing to know is that any voltage can kill you, provided the conditions are bad enough and the power source is strong enough. I only hope Ciscoguy will not find out that fact the hard way himself one day.
Stay safe.
ciscoguy01
Addicted to ArboristSite
12,470
12,400 phase to phase, 7200V ground to ground is what's on the lines I hit. It would suck to get nailed by that regardless...
12,400 phase to phase, 7200V ground to ground is what's on the lines I hit. It would suck to get nailed by that regardless...
12,400 phase to phase, 7200V phase to ground is what's on the lines I hit. It would suck to get nailed by that regardless...
I believe it would not only suck ....
sawinredneck
Addicted to ArboristSite
I bet you are a real hoot at the parties!!! WOW!!!
The 120: I was helping a friend remodel his kitchen, he killed all the power to the kitchen, everything was dead, I did not double check everything, MY BAD, and that particular outlet was on another circuit. Easy enough mistake to make.
The 240: I was having problems with my heater, my house is all electric, and I thought it was the low voltage transformer for the thermostat. No other way than to check it other than live. I bumped my hand on the input and was grounded with the other.
I already know where the second one is gong, but hey, I work in maintenance for a large company with a lot of computer controlled machines. A lot of times THERE IS NO OTHER WAY to diagnose other than having them live.
ciscoguy01
Addicted to ArboristSite
Good grief Andy, a screwdriver type voltage tester can be had at 2 $, that's even fair to a redneck imo....
PS. I checked my books yesterday evening, and read that any voltage as of 50 V AC (120 DC) is enough to provoke heart malfunction and cause possible death.
God bless America !
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sawinredneck
Addicted to ArboristSite
Good grief Andy, a screwdriver type voltage tester can be had at 2 $, that's even fair to a redneck imo....
PS. I checked my books yesterday evening, and read that any voltage as of 50 V AC (120 DC) is enough to provoke heart malfunction and cause possible death.
God bless America !
I have one of them, NOW!!! Wish I'd had it on the kitchen remodel!!!!!!
No, to test the computer circuts we have to have theml ive, and use a volt meter to check the varing voltages when limit switches are hit, and to see if that PLC is geting the right voltage on the right contact. You also have to be on the phone with the tech at the same time!!! It's a lot of fun!!!!
Hell, the two newest saws, you have to hook up to the internet, be on the phone with the tech, and do all of these test at the same time!! Never seen anything like that!! It was nuts being in KS, having some dude in SC operating the saw while I tested the circuts!!!:jawdrop:
Mitchell
ArboristSite Operative
learning
In the name of education then ill chime in. In my opinion ciscoe, cutting the back cut flush is not or was not your big mistake. At times there is good reason to try for flush cutting the stump. Mainly with dead wood or short fat trees. All the kick back step does is possibly stop the tree from jumping the stump [ if it hits something] into the position you should have vacated anyways. I have rarely seen it happen.
Don't get me wrong you will never go to wrong in adding the kick back step on the stump every time. It just might mean cutting the hinge wood closer to the face cut then you would have had if you cut level; that is a far more perilous situation for you then stump shot [as you found out when you cut to much holding/hinge wood off in your video].
An set back can be recovered from with out to much difficulty if you have left a good band of holding/hinge wood. Just go up 2 to three times the diameter of the tree and re fall it. IN your case even you could have steered it only 15 degrees off strait backwards it would have missed the lines. The big mistake you made was to keep cutting the holding/hinge wood before you knew where the tree was committing to.
On a tree the size you were cutting, you should have been able to get the tree to commit [by standing up] with wedges with a "couple" inches of holding wood remaining. if it isn't re asses before you keep cutting the hing wood. Cut very very slowly with little taps on the throttle and alternate wedging. When you have cut down to about an inch of holding wood, shut the saw off crack the ear muffs and wack the wedges. if you still can't get it to stand up, your unto plan B; refelling with the lean, roping it, jacking it, or knocking it over with another [bigger] tree.
Also, If you think you can get away with cutting a little more hinge wood start taking it out of the center and leave the sap wood.
Hope this is informative
Welllll, if... After notching NE side, I started the backcut. I made the mistake of not backcutting above the notch so it was level to it. (Another bad mistake)I also cut part of the eastern side of the tree to make it swing more westerly when falling... I cut through roughly 80% of the log, both sides included... I started wedging it, using 2 different wedges...
In the name of education then ill chime in. In my opinion ciscoe, cutting the back cut flush is not or was not your big mistake. At times there is good reason to try for flush cutting the stump. Mainly with dead wood or short fat trees. All the kick back step does is possibly stop the tree from jumping the stump [ if it hits something] into the position you should have vacated anyways. I have rarely seen it happen.
Don't get me wrong you will never go to wrong in adding the kick back step on the stump every time. It just might mean cutting the hinge wood closer to the face cut then you would have had if you cut level; that is a far more perilous situation for you then stump shot [as you found out when you cut to much holding/hinge wood off in your video].
An set back can be recovered from with out to much difficulty if you have left a good band of holding/hinge wood. Just go up 2 to three times the diameter of the tree and re fall it. IN your case even you could have steered it only 15 degrees off strait backwards it would have missed the lines. The big mistake you made was to keep cutting the holding/hinge wood before you knew where the tree was committing to.
On a tree the size you were cutting, you should have been able to get the tree to commit [by standing up] with wedges with a "couple" inches of holding wood remaining. if it isn't re asses before you keep cutting the hing wood. Cut very very slowly with little taps on the throttle and alternate wedging. When you have cut down to about an inch of holding wood, shut the saw off crack the ear muffs and wack the wedges. if you still can't get it to stand up, your unto plan B; refelling with the lean, roping it, jacking it, or knocking it over with another [bigger] tree.
Also, If you think you can get away with cutting a little more hinge wood start taking it out of the center and leave the sap wood.
Hope this is informative
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ciscoguy01
Addicted to ArboristSite
Omg
Dude, that is awesome info there. Much better than some of the d1psh1ts who just criticize people on here. You have no idea how much this is appreciated. Thanks for the great info bro. Nowwwww, I'm going to get with my cousin and get learning how to fell correctly also as he has a bachelors in Forestry from Paul Smith's college up here...
eh?
Dude, that is awesome info there. Much better than some of the d1psh1ts who just criticize people on here. You have no idea how much this is appreciated. Thanks for the great info bro. Nowwwww, I'm going to get with my cousin and get learning how to fell correctly also as he has a bachelors in Forestry from Paul Smith's college up here...
eh?
Mitchell
ArboristSite Operative
no worries
no problem
I presume you have learned your own lesson and don't need every single guy on here to re hash it. I know less then most here about aboricultor in general but I suspect more then most about falling. I hope most folks knowledgeable about the aspects of tree care I'm grappling with share the information I need to help folks in my community.
Best is to have some one show you the ropes however, that is not always possible.
Also of note concerning your felling video; if you do cut the the holding wood of one side wholly or substantially don't pound wedges on that side [Unless you have a good lean to that side] bring them around to avoid lifting the tree sideways.
Taking the time to line your pie/undercut/face cuts up in relation to the site lines on your saw will eliminate the need to use a dutchman.
Practice face cuts on stumps. Practice cutting level as it makes lining up cuts much easier. Every beginner I have seen when trying to drop the pie out, droops the tip of the bar below level when starting the cut, making the cut sweep past the face cut on a humbolt or it comes up short on a convential. Convential cuts are easier to make but humblolts are safer. Aim for a shallow pie/face cut [25%] so if you have to correct it you have room.
If you are stuck with using a dutchman to bring the tree into leed you generally still should leave some holding wood on the thin side.
Keep in mind the literature and folks argue about what exactly is a dutchman. I know of three versions. A regional thing no doubt. All versions agree that it pulls the tree away away from the direction the pie cut aims by manipulating holding wood strength accross the diameter.
no problem
I presume you have learned your own lesson and don't need every single guy on here to re hash it. I know less then most here about aboricultor in general but I suspect more then most about falling. I hope most folks knowledgeable about the aspects of tree care I'm grappling with share the information I need to help folks in my community.
Best is to have some one show you the ropes however, that is not always possible.
Also of note concerning your felling video; if you do cut the the holding wood of one side wholly or substantially don't pound wedges on that side [Unless you have a good lean to that side] bring them around to avoid lifting the tree sideways.
(Another bad mistake)
Taking the time to line your pie/undercut/face cuts up in relation to the site lines on your saw will eliminate the need to use a dutchman.
Practice face cuts on stumps. Practice cutting level as it makes lining up cuts much easier. Every beginner I have seen when trying to drop the pie out, droops the tip of the bar below level when starting the cut, making the cut sweep past the face cut on a humbolt or it comes up short on a convential. Convential cuts are easier to make but humblolts are safer. Aim for a shallow pie/face cut [25%] so if you have to correct it you have room.
If you are stuck with using a dutchman to bring the tree into leed you generally still should leave some holding wood on the thin side.
Keep in mind the literature and folks argue about what exactly is a dutchman. I know of three versions. A regional thing no doubt. All versions agree that it pulls the tree away away from the direction the pie cut aims by manipulating holding wood strength accross the diameter.
Fast Freddy
ArboristSite Lurker
A degree from Paul Smith's don't mean ???? in the real world. We have had probably a dozen graduates from that poor excuse of a school over the years-what they know about climbing or felling is laughable. Have three times hired grad's of that school to climb-i hand them a rope and they ask me what they are supposed to do with it. They are not even good for dragging brush cause they think it's beneath them. Too much book learning and not enough hand's on. Oh, they are good with latin names-whoopee doo.
ciscoguy01
Addicted to ArboristSite
Really??/
Anddddd how bout 63yrs of working in the woods as a primary job??? I'm sure you'd know more than him though. :monkey:
Anddddd how bout 63yrs of working in the woods as a primary job??? I'm sure you'd know more than him though. :monkey:
