Echo CS-590 timberwolf vs. Echo CS-600P

[Chris-PA]

Yes, they tune them too lean, easy fix. Steve

I have to assume they are using a cat muffler and limiter caps too?

You should not have to fix something you just bought.

 

[zogger]

I have to assume they are using a cat muffler and limiter caps too?

You should not have to fix something you just bought.

Nope, we shouldnt, but that is what the dealer prep is now for most all new saws. Disappears into mysterious backroom wink wink nudge nudge...secret alleged dealer only carb tool action....saw comes out with realistic carb settings instead of the fed mandated guaranteed to fry it at some point setting.

Meanwhile, back at the left and right coasts, ship after ship comes in after running bunker fuel across oceans, each ship making more air nasties than every saw ever built...

 

[echoshawn]

Nope, we shouldnt, but that is what the dealer prep is now for most all new saws. Disappears into mysterious backroom wink wink nudge nudge...secret alleged dealer only carb tool action....saw comes out with realistic carb settings instead of the fed mandated guaranteed to fry it at some point setting.

Meanwhile, back at the left and right coasts, ship after ship comes in after running bunker fuel across oceans, each ship making more air nasties than every saw ever built...

I was happy my dealer did the 'secret backroom' adjustments. One more reason to only buy from a servicing dealer, not a big box..
Well, unless you're gonna send it off to some hack in Tennessee to grind on it, then buy cheap so you can send pie with it :hmm3grin2orange:
and stuff.....

 

[mountainlake]

I have to assume they are using a cat muffler and limiter caps too?

You should not have to fix something you just bought.

All new saws every brand come with limiter caps and need to adjusted by either the dealer or you. Some Echo's have cat muffs, some don't but the ones that do sure run a lot better without them. Other brands use cat muffs also. Steve

 

[Chris-PA]

Nope, we shouldnt, but that is what the dealer prep is now for most all new saws. Disappears into mysterious backroom wink wink nudge nudge...secret alleged dealer only carb tool action....saw comes out with realistic carb settings instead of the fed mandated guaranteed to fry it at some point setting.

Meanwhile, back at the left and right coasts, ship after ship comes in after running bunker fuel across oceans, each ship making more air nasties than every saw ever built...

Rant follows:

Well, I know about bunker fuel and what comes out of coal fired power plants, and the various inequities of the emissions rules. Nonetheless, 2-stroke OPE have been some seriously high output polluters in aggregate based on the fundamental defects of their engine design and the crappy fuel systems that are used. Both of these things can be corrected by better design, and have been - strato address the former.

I'm predisposed to like Echo stuff, as I have some of their stuff and it is well made. However, here is a company that did not invest in product development and has not ponied up for the royalties for what others developed. They are passing off old tech 2-strokes set too lean, with limiter caps and a cat as a band-aide - on a fuel system that is inherently unable to compensate for variations in temperature, atmospheric changes, variations in fuel characteristics or even load. One of two things will happen with these saws:

1. Someone will "fix" them, which will defeat the emissions control and turn them back into polluters again

2. More likely they will be run as-is, with strong odds they will burn themselves up, wasting the hard earned money of the people who buy them due to no fault of theirs.

Echo knows this. I've spent too much money on various similarly poorly engineered products - mowers and generators with non-adjustable carbs that did not work until I redesigned them, etc. I regard this as an unethical business practice on Echo's part. The technology is developed and even the cheapest plastic Poulan has it - there is no excuse for Echo to pawn off obsolete junk at this price point. Maybe they could try packing the adjuster screws with epoxy next.

My job title at work is Principal Hardware Engineer. Part of my responsibility is making sure bad ideas and poorly executed junk doesn't get out - I have no patience for such stuff.

/Rant

 

[Hedgerow]

Rant follows:

Well, I know about bunker fuel and what comes out of coal fired power plants, and the various inequities of the emissions rules. Nonetheless, 2-stroke OPE have been some seriously high output polluters in aggregate based on the fundamental defects of their engine design and the crappy fuel systems that are used. Both of these things can be corrected by better design, and have been - strato address the former.

I'm predisposed to like Echo stuff, as I have some of their stuff and it is well made. However, here is a company that did not invest in product development and has not ponied up for the royalties for what others developed. They are passing off old tech 2-strokes set too lean, with limiter caps and a cat as a band-aide - on a fuel system that is inherently unable to compensate for variations in temperature, atmospheric changes, variations in fuel characteristics or even load. One of two things will happen with these saws:

1. Someone will "fix" them, which will defeat the emissions control and turn them back into polluters again

2. More likely they will be run as-is, with strong odds they will burn themselves up, wasting the hard earned money of the people who buy them due to no fault of theirs.

Echo knows this. I've spent too much money on various similarly poorly engineered products - mowers and generators with non-adjustable carbs that did not work until I redesigned them, etc. I regard this as an unethical business practice on Echo's part. The technology is developed and even the cheapest plastic Poulan has it - there is no excuse for Echo to pawn off obsolete junk at this price point. Maybe they could try packing the adjuster screws with epoxy next.

My job title at work is Principal Hardware Engineer. Part of my responsibility is making sure bad ideas and poorly executed junk doesn't get out - I have no patience for such stuff.

/Rant

I still really like the 600p...
And stuff...
I like it better than the 361 Stihl...

 

[mountainlake]

These 30 t0 90cc saws might put out pollution BUT not much volume. how are you going to turn off forest fires and volcanos. Steve

 

[7sleeper]

Nope, we shouldnt, but that is what the dealer prep is now for most all new saws. Disappears into mysterious backroom wink wink nudge nudge...secret alleged dealer only carb tool action....saw comes out with realistic carb settings instead of the fed mandated guaranteed to fry it at some point setting.

Meanwhile, back at the left and right coasts, ship after ship comes in after running bunker fuel across oceans, each ship making more air nasties than every saw ever built...

Actually these ships run on a two stroke engine! They use the worse of worse of sludge leftover from the oil refinery.

7

 

[zogger]

Rant follows:

Well, I know about bunker fuel and what comes out of coal fired power plants, and the various inequities of the emissions rules. Nonetheless, 2-stroke OPE have been some seriously high output polluters in aggregate based on the fundamental defects of their engine design and the crappy fuel systems that are used. Both of these things can be corrected by better design, and have been - strato address the former.

I'm predisposed to like Echo stuff, as I have some of their stuff and it is well made. However, here is a company that did not invest in product development and has not ponied up for the royalties for what others developed. They are passing off old tech 2-strokes set too lean, with limiter caps and a cat as a band-aide - on a fuel system that is inherently unable to compensate for variations in temperature, atmospheric changes, variations in fuel characteristics or even load. One of two things will happen with these saws:

1. Someone will "fix" them, which will defeat the emissions control and turn them back into polluters again

2. More likely they will be run as-is, with strong odds they will burn themselves up, wasting the hard earned money of the people who buy them due to no fault of theirs.

Echo knows this. I've spent too much money on various similarly poorly engineered products - mowers and generators with non-adjustable carbs that did not work until I redesigned them, etc. I regard this as an unethical business practice on Echo's part. The technology is developed and even the cheapest plastic Poulan has it - there is no excuse for Echo to pawn off obsolete junk at this price point. Maybe they could try packing the adjuster screws with epoxy next.

My job title at work is Principal Hardware Engineer. Part of my responsibility is making sure bad ideas and poorly executed junk doesn't get out - I have no patience for such stuff.

/Rant

I understand what you are saying, and I have a similar rant..the patent system is freeking broken. Software patents (what total complete nonsense), business methods patents(beyond a joke), allowing miniscule minor changes to be patented (stuff that falls into the obvious category), etc. Its crap. Also, emission credits, the big guys can ship saws that pollute more, some of them, because they accumulate enough emissions brownie points with other devices. Thats political junk science and cronyism and so on.

The way it is going, we will wind up with just two small engine two stroke OPE companies, and cartel pricing (I think cartel type pricing is already there). I think the second and third tier companies are doing the best they can given the cards they are dealt.

 

[Chris-PA]

I understand what you are saying, and I have a similar rant..the patent system is freeking broken. Software patents (what total complete nonsense), business methods patents(beyond a joke), allowing miniscule minor changes to be patented (stuff that falls into the obvious category), etc. Its crap. Also, emission credits, the big guys can ship saws that pollute more, some of them, because they accumulate enough emissions brownie points with other devices. Thats political junk science and cronyism and so on.

The way it is going, we will wind up with just two small engine two stroke OPE companies, and cartel pricing (I think cartel type pricing is already there). I think the second and third tier companies are doing the best they can given the cards they are dealt.

Another way to look at it is simply that the market for chainsaws was massively overinflated by the availability of easy credit. That credit has gone away, permanently, and so a lot of that now excess capacity will go away too. Like a lot of the consequences of debt, this has not been dealt with yet. But it will be, and the loss of the weaker companies will be some of those consequences. OPE was just a bubble too - POP!

 

[echoshawn]

I understand what you are saying, and I have a similar rant..the patent system is freeking broken. Software patents (what total complete nonsense), business methods patents(beyond a joke), allowing miniscule minor changes to be patented (stuff that falls into the obvious category), etc. Its crap. Also, emission credits, the big guys can ship saws that pollute more, some of them, because they accumulate enough emissions brownie points with other devices. Thats political junk science and cronyism and so on.

The way it is going, we will wind up with just two small engine two stroke OPE companies, and cartel pricing (I think cartel type pricing is already there). I think the second and third tier companies are doing the best they can given the cards they are dealt.

The mention of emissions credits reminded me of what my dealer told me. To start, they're a former Husqvarna dealership, and he's an old school husky and stihl guy. They still sell Jonsreds as well.

He that Echo, especially during the grey cased equipment days, did really detune the saws to save credits for their other OPE (trimmers, blowers, etc).

He said that they have now refocused their efforts on saws, and I think the 600P shows they're actually becoming more serious about saws again.

Was also told they're designing a new, big displacement saw to replace the cs-8000... He said 90-100cc range.

I know it's heresay, but they've always shot me straight over the years. Even before they became the echo dealer, they were my shop of choice.

 

[Hedgerow]

Another way to look at it is simply that the market for chainsaws was massively overinflated by the availability of easy credit. That credit has gone away, permanently, and so a lot of that now excess capacity will go away too. Like a lot of the consequences of debt, this has not been dealt with yet. But it will be, and the loss of the weaker companies will be some of those consequences. OPE was just a bubble too - POP!

Bubbles are ok... They just happen, and always will... If a business feels they can venture into a market and make a buck, I say go for it... It's their money... They may succeed, they may fail...
I like having choices as a consumer...
I've never bought a saw on credit though...
:msp_sneaky:

 

[cjtreeclimber]

Echo Chainsaw Fix
What are cat muffs?
What’s top and bottom end?
What color on my plugs am I looking to judge
If tis running lean or rich?
All my saws are Echos. Only adjusted the cs 400 so far.
I guess I have to do them all asap before they burn up? :confused2:

 

[zogger]

Echo Chainsaw Fix
What are cat muffs?
What’s top and bottom end?
What color on my plugs am I looking to judge
If tis running lean or rich?
All my saws are Echos. Only adjusted the cs 400 so far.
I guess I have to do them all asap before they burn up? :confused2:

All that info is here and there in a thousand threads. Bottom line is, H screw in particlar should be at least to full rich up against the stops, on a lot of saws anyway. I know my huskies and one running echo are all past where the limiters would allow richening. If you want to go beyond the stops, have to remove limiters if so equipped. Plugs should be light tan, closer to whitish is too lean, darker than light tan, judgement call on too rich. You can google up reading spark plugs to get some color pictures.

 

[Hedgerow]

All that info is here and there in a thousand threads. Bottom line is, H screw in particlar should be at least to full rich up against the stops, on a lot of saws anyway. I know my huskies and one running echo are all past where the limiters would allow richening. If you want to go beyond the stops, have to remove limiters if so equipped. Plugs should be light tan, closer to whitish is too lean, darker than light tan, judgement call on too rich. You can google up reading spark plugs to get some color pictures.

I like my spark plugs sorta black and drippy, with carbon buildup all over em'...
:after_boom:

 

[zogger]

The mention of emissions credits reminded me of what my dealer told me. To start, they're a former Husqvarna dealership, and he's an old school husky and stihl guy. They still sell Jonsreds as well.

He that Echo, especially during the grey cased equipment days, did really detune the saws to save credits for their other OPE (trimmers, blowers, etc).

He said that they have now refocused their efforts on saws, and I think the 600P shows they're actually becoming more serious about saws again.

Was also told they're designing a new, big displacement saw to replace the cs-8000... He said 90-100cc range.

I know it's heresay, but they've always shot me straight over the years. Even before they became the echo dealer, they were my shop of choice.

A bigger echo, and not the antique one they sell overseas? Im in, will start saving my nickles today...I like my 8000 a lot, a bigger more modern one would be great!

 

[rmh3481]

Rant follows:

Well, I know about bunker fuel and what comes out of coal fired power plants, and the various inequities of the emissions rules. Nonetheless, 2-stroke OPE have been some seriously high output polluters in aggregate based on the fundamental defects of their engine design and the crappy fuel systems that are used. Both of these things can be corrected by better design, and have been - strato address the former.

I'm predisposed to like Echo stuff, as I have some of their stuff and it is well made. However, here is a company that did not invest in product development and has not ponied up for the royalties for what others developed. They are passing off old tech 2-strokes set too lean, with limiter caps and a cat as a band-aide - on a fuel system that is inherently unable to compensate for variations in temperature, atmospheric changes, variations in fuel characteristics or even load. One of two things will happen with these saws:

1. Someone will "fix" them, which will defeat the emissions control and turn them back into polluters again

2. More likely they will be run as-is, with strong odds they will burn themselves up, wasting the hard earned money of the people who buy them due to no fault of theirs.

Echo knows this. I've spent too much money on various similarly poorly engineered products - mowers and generators with non-adjustable carbs that did not work until I redesigned them, etc. I regard this as an unethical business practice on Echo's part. The technology is developed and even the cheapest plastic Poulan has it - there is no excuse for Echo to pawn off obsolete junk at this price point. Maybe they could try packing the adjuster screws with epoxy next.

My job title at work is Principal Hardware Engineer. Part of my responsibility is making sure bad ideas and poorly executed junk doesn't get out - I have no patience for such stuff.

/Rant

Echo was the first manufacturer to build a several million $ emission lab in Illinois.

 

[zogger]

I like my spark plugs sorta black and drippy, with carbon buildup all over em'...
:after_boom:

thats just because you love running seafoam in everything once you have those carboned out devices..hey, every boy needs a fetish!

 

[Miles86]

Echo Chainsaw Fix
What are cat muffs?
What’s top and bottom end?
What color on my plugs am I looking to judge
If tis running lean or rich?
All my saws are Echos. Only adjusted the cs 400 so far.
I guess I have to do them all asap before they burn up? :confused2:

Hey;

If you don't have this tool, get one: Dremel variable speed, with the metal cutting discs.
Read threads on "omitting" the cat converter (hint: that's why the dremel is needed.)

Everyone on earth should be given a dremel tool when they are born.

 

[Hedgerow]

thats just because you love running seafoam in everything once you have those carboned out devices..hey, every boy needs a fetish!

You busy about October this year??? You need to come visit Arkansas...

And I like a little seafoam on ice once in a while...