EPA targets families that generate heat off the grid using traditional wood-burning s

[Whitespider]

I’ve already read that deerlakejens… more than once. Let me quote directly from it (bolding and underlining are mine)…

There has been much concern over chronic exposure of bird species to DDT and effects on reproduction, especially eggshell thinning and embryo deaths . The mechanisms of eggshell thinning are not fully understood. It is thought that this may occur from the major metabolite, DDE, and that predator species of birds are the most sensitive to these effects… The implications of these for long-term survival and reproduction of wild bird species is unclear.

That is the only thing said about thin egg shells in that document, and… sorry, but that’s a far cry from “fact”. It’s almost as though they went out of their way to say as little as possible about the issue without promoting or debunking either side of the argument. And the only reference to that section of the document is the “World Health Organization”… Give me a break… no wonder they didn’t elaborate further!

Ya’ know, studies have shown that deer reproduction changes with habitat and competition. When deer populations are high and/or competition for resources is high the doe’s will drop mostly single offspring with higher percentages of males. When deer populations are low and/or competition for resources is low the doe’s will drop a higher percentage of twins and higher percentages of females. This is nature’s way of preventing over-population.

Maybe, just maybe, as humans have taken more and more of predatory bird habitat and resources Mother Nature has stepped in to do her job. Maybe, just maybe, as competition for resources has increased these birds aren’t getting the proper diet, or their diet has changed in subtle ways because of human intrusion. Maybe, just maybe, this is nothing more than nature’s way of things… … … Naw, you’re probably right… it just has to be the fault of big, bad chemical corporations… and the only thing that can save us from ourselves is Big Brother.

 

[olyman]

Hardly. You are so obsessed with there only being black and white.

I support cleaner burning stoves. How could anybody not? Do you purposely want to pollute the air in your community? Make it hard for some people to breathe? Are you one of those folks who burns tires?

The government HAS to step in when the basic right of folks to breathe clean air outside, or inside, on their own property, is affected by a jerk who does not have the good sense to be a good neighbor and not burn on a day when the smoke is hanging close to the ground--inversion.

Are you a bad or a good neighbor, Olyman? Isn't it the Christian thing to do--thinking of others also?

Leftist Subversive? :msp_tongue:

Laws get made because there are people who do the wrong thing. To quote Paul Harvey, "There can be no self government without self discipline." or something like that.

ah yes,,the great failsafe american gov,,run now by mostly leftists harbingers of hatred towards real americans....right...So tell me,,you seem to state your a Chrstian,,by using it against me,,wheres that leave uuuuuuuuuuuuuuu??? Burn tires??? Dont think so,,but then,,leftists like to change arguments to fit their extremely narrow agenda...im glad,,that they put the equal opportunity clause in the us gov regulations...

 

[olyman]

Ok, I realize you can find all you want to support your argument on such "trustworthy" websites like junkscience. I'm gonna defer to the US fish and wildlife's info on DDT and it's related compounds here as they've been studying it's effects since 1945 combining tests in the field with lab tests and reviews of other research. They know more about the subject than you or I ever will:

Environmental Contaminants Program Home Page, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service

a history of their news releases here:

Environmental Contaminants Program Home Page, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service

Now I'll let this ridiculous thread get back to it's bashing of the EPA, the far left, and our rights to make our neighbors breathe our smoke.

ahahahhaahahahhahhahahah..whites references,,are all lies,,and yours are all truth..have heard that more than once on this forum,,ANd guess who ALWAYS, thinks their right??? hint,it aint the conservatives..and guess who squeals the most??

 

[olyman]

Really? So another Federal agency is “trustworthy”? Let’s see… an agency that has its leader appointed by a politician, the sitting president… and approved by more politicians, congress… gets its funding from politicians, again congress… and is controlled directly by politicians. Yep, I’ll just bet everything I own that there ain’t gonna’ be any political or special interest bias or influences on that website.

Listen… DDT may cause egg shell thinning in wild predatory birds, or it may not. Simply it’s an unproven theory. If we start banning everything that “might” be dangerous or harmful based on theory… well, I guess we’ll just have to ban…….. EVERYTHING!

I don’t get my information from “websites” and opinion pages. I “trust” studies done by people who at least appear to have no axe to grind, don’t get funding from government, are not part of or affiliated with any special-interest groups, and who try just as hard to disprove one side as the other. The egg shell thinning from DDT is nothing but a theory, never scientifically proven, and is only accepted mostly by special-interest tree-hugger types. In the unbiased world of science a “theory” only becomes accepted as fact after ALL OTHER possibilities have been eliminated and the predictions put forth by the theorist have come true. This can take years, decades or even lifetimes… such as Einenstein’s Theory of Relativity, in which only certain parts have become accepted as fact and much of it is still regarded as only theory. There are two simple facts, both of which have come to light after the DDT ban and appear to toss the DDT theory totally out the window, but the tree-huggers just ignore them because it doesn’t “fit” their agenda… they believe that just because their agenda is noble we should all side with them regardless of the facts.

1. Egg shell thinning began many years before the use of DDT.
2. Egg shell thickness has not increased after the ban of DDT (except possibly in some spotty, localized areas, which proves nothing).

Because there is no scientific proof that egg shells have thickened after the DDT ban it is ignorant folly to claim the EPA saved the birds.
Just another case of sheep being led by wolves…

and theres plenty of left leaning sheep.............

 

[olyman]

So, spider, how's your groundwater there in Iowa? When I lived there in the 80's, groundwater contamination from overuse of pesticides was a major issue or is there a conspiracy theory that refutes that as well? I worked for an integrated pest management service that helped growers use science rather than marketing information in making application choices that saved them money and the environment from unnecessary contaminants. Getting Nixon to enact the EPA legislature was a huge coup for those who spent years putting it together when it was obvious that private business had no interest in being responsible for their long term impact. Whether you think it's worth while or not, your kids will be appreciative of the reforms. If you happened to live around any of the EPA Superfund sites, you would see the extreme examples of corporate irresponsibility. The administration of some of these cleanups have become local boondoggles but that is another story. By the way, shooting of predators certainly has an impact on predators in more populated areas but there are multiple studies, especially of eagles and ospreys, that show the incidence of failed nests and DDT was a fact. Sorry, you are flat out wrong on that issue.

According to who??? Only YOUR studies???? big deal......

 

[olyman]

I’ve already read that deerlakejens… more than once. Let me quote directly from it (bolding and underlining are mine)…

That is the only thing said about thin egg shells in that document, and… sorry, but that’s a far cry from “fact”. It’s almost as though they went out of their way to say as little as possible about the issue without promoting or debunking either side of the argument. And the only reference to that section of the document is the “World Health Organization”… Give me a break… no wonder they didn’t elaborate further!

Ya’ know, studies have shown that deer reproduction changes with habitat and competition. When deer populations are high and/or competition for resources is high the doe’s will drop mostly single offspring with higher percentages of males. When deer populations are low and/or competition for resources is low the doe’s will drop a higher percentage of twins and higher percentages of females. This is nature’s way of preventing over-population.

Maybe, just maybe, as humans have taken more and more of predatory bird habitat and resources Mother Nature has stepped in to do her job. Maybe, just maybe, as competition for resources has increased these birds aren’t getting the proper diet, or their diet has changed in subtle ways because of human intrusion. Maybe, just maybe, this is nothing more than nature’s way of things… … … Naw, you’re probably right… it just has to be the fault of big, bad chemical corporations… and the only thing that can save us from ourselves is Big Brother.

yah, and big brother,,run by mostly college educated idiots,,that have zero concept of reality

 

[Locust Cutter]

yah, and big brother, run by mostly college educated idiots, that have zero concept of reality

You forgot Responsibility, Accountability and morality grounded in reality, learned via-experience and good upbringing. On BOTH sides of the Aisle. I don't trust anyone with access to millions of dollars and commercial coercion. I have nothing against the rich, no axe to grind. I'm concerned with my family and my ability to provide for them as the Husband and Father that I believe they deserve and feel I should strive to be. In that guise, (not to be a pacifist) can we agree to disagree about whether the Gov't really has our best interests in mind and the reasons and merits thereof? If nothing else out of the same respect that we wish we received more often. opcorn:

 

[Chris-PA]

What a sad commentary this thread is. I will not open it again, and I hope it's deleted.

 

[olyman]

Yes it is.

Mirror keeps looking at yah,dont it??? Leftists are a enviromental disaster...Scourge like you,,are what throw the threds way off,,with your "enviromental" "concerns"..What a joke..

 

[olyman]

What a sad commentary this thread is. I will not open it again, and I hope it's deleted.

Nothing wrong with your posting,but the "enviroMENTAL" types, always have to have their "concerned" view point known,,loud and clear,and most times,,its clear off track..with a lot of thrown in twisted "facts". As what a couple people did to whites posts....

 

[CTYank]

I'm not sure what you mean by "eventually" but it took me all of 10 seconds to find this 51 page EPA report on wood stove emissions. It seems like a pretty complete list to me.

Wood Stove Emissions: Particle Size and Chemical Composition



Again, I'm not sure what conclusion you think I jumped to from parroting something I heard, nor how you even know what I have or haven't heard. I made a statement and asked a question.



I live downwind from a turkey farm so I'm pretty sure a charcoal kiln would be a welcome improvement.

I will say that the headline is sensational but would we be discussing this if it were not? In case you haven't noticed, journalism is sensational by nature so this headline goes with the territory. No, the EPA is not going to come to my house and confiscate my ancient Taylor T-450 but the EPA's position is widely used by local govt. to enact anti-wood burning statutes. The EPA is helping local govt. target families who burn wood.

EPA stove regulations unfairly impact the poor who are incapable of building their own stoves and unable to afford an expensive EPA stove. These poor shivering families are forced to buy expensive fossil fuels to heat their homes making them unable to even save up money for an EPA wood stove. In some cases they have to choose between buying food and buying propane because cheap wood heat is denied to them. So, in regulating wood stove emissions the EPA is actually decreasing the poor families ability to survive and at the same time increasing the use of fossil fuels.

You've got your pulse-rate up, quite confusing some very simple statements. And over-reacting about others. Discussion fruitless.

You cant really be serious about Cain- and who needs that political crap here? Non-funny joke.

 

[Ayatollah]

What a sad commentary this thread is. I will not open it again, and I hope it's deleted.

People have different and or opposing views, and some are passionate about them; It's more interesting to learn about them than it is disturbing. If we all thought exactly alike, this world would be a pretty boring place, and human evolution would probably slow to a crawl.
I'm just surprised to discover so many people are wrong.:msp_biggrin: