John Foster
ArboristSite Lurker
I just bought a new Husky chainsaw. Is it alright to use ethanol blended fuels in it because that is all our local station sells?
Thank you...
...john.
Thank you...
...john.
Ethanol Fuels
- Thread starter John Foster
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eyolf
Addicted to ArboristSite
You can get by with it. But you're getting by...
there are a couple of problems with it. The alky absorbs water, which is bad. Blended fuel also degrades much more rapidly than fuels without an oxygenate, especially when stored in a semi-permeable container like a plastic gas can. Milk jugs and other recycled containers are even worse.
Buy your fuel in small quantities often, don't plan on storing it for more than a week or two. Put the old fuel in your lawnmower or tractor.
I don't know about where you live, but some communities have outlets that cater to the outboard, snowmobile, and racing crowds, who usually demand "pure" gas. In the US this is usually labelled "off-road" or sometimes other labels. There is a station near me that is owned by a fellow involved with classic cars...he sells racing gas to his buddies at $4 a gallon, but its good stuff.
there are a couple of problems with it. The alky absorbs water, which is bad. Blended fuel also degrades much more rapidly than fuels without an oxygenate, especially when stored in a semi-permeable container like a plastic gas can. Milk jugs and other recycled containers are even worse.
Buy your fuel in small quantities often, don't plan on storing it for more than a week or two. Put the old fuel in your lawnmower or tractor.
I don't know about where you live, but some communities have outlets that cater to the outboard, snowmobile, and racing crowds, who usually demand "pure" gas. In the US this is usually labelled "off-road" or sometimes other labels. There is a station near me that is owned by a fellow involved with classic cars...he sells racing gas to his buddies at $4 a gallon, but its good stuff.
pallis
ArboristSite Operative
My 6400 Makita manual says not to use ethanol fuel. The saw is stamped 1999. My Solo 650 manual doesn't mention it. It is stamped 2002. Both are coated with Nicosil. Did they improve Nicosil plating so that it is no longer damaged by ethanol?
I buy my fuel at a station that has guaranteed me they don't buy ethanol fuel, but I always wonder how they know for sure what they are getting. I was a warehouse superintendent for the Highway Department in Texas, and part of the job entailed purchasing hundreds of thousand gallons of fuel. This was during the fuel crises of the 80s, and independent companies were buying their fuel wherever they could get it to keep the stations supplied.
I buy my fuel at a station that has guaranteed me they don't buy ethanol fuel, but I always wonder how they know for sure what they are getting. I was a warehouse superintendent for the Highway Department in Texas, and part of the job entailed purchasing hundreds of thousand gallons of fuel. This was during the fuel crises of the 80s, and independent companies were buying their fuel wherever they could get it to keep the stations supplied.
Mange
Addicted to ArboristSite
Wery good question!
The small experience I have with ethanol makes me wonder if it is the same fuel you are talking about. This fuel is a lot different from petrol.
I would think there is a bunch off different "ethanol" fuels.
Mange
The small experience I have with ethanol makes me wonder if it is the same fuel you are talking about. This fuel is a lot different from petrol.
I would think there is a bunch off different "ethanol" fuels.
Mange
Lewis Brander
Addicted to ArboristSite
Fuels:
The best idea, to me, is to buy fresh fuel, store in an air tight metal container and add the right amount of fuel stabilzer. When mixing fuel, ( of course at the right ratio) mix up what you think will be enough fuel to get you through the day. I usually take the fuel from my metal container, mix it and put it in an approved plastic gas container for that days use. If the fuel in my metal container, that I also use in my 4 cycle equipment is to be stored longer than 2-3 weeks, 30days max. I'll usually put that in my truck to get rid of it, especially during the summer. During the winter I'll buy fuel, add fuel stabilizer and usually store it all winter in the metal container in my outside shed untill I need it for whatever use. I feel that fuel can be safely stored longer in cold weather. I usuallly fill my emergency generator during the winter add fuel stabil and leave it all winter. I always make it a point to start it at least once or twice a month throughout the winter and have had no problems there. I drain that fuel, burn it in my truck and add a bit of fuel to run the generator from time to time in the summer. As far as my saws go, when they are to sit for awhile, I'll drain the tanks and idle them dry and leave the gas caps loose to vent the tanks. I believe in using fresh fuel and fuel stabilizer. Don't think I've had too much of a problem with my 2 or 4 cycle equipment since I've started doing this with this so called, 10% alcohol, oxygenated fuel we use in NY, these days. JMO. Lewis.
The best idea, to me, is to buy fresh fuel, store in an air tight metal container and add the right amount of fuel stabilzer. When mixing fuel, ( of course at the right ratio) mix up what you think will be enough fuel to get you through the day. I usually take the fuel from my metal container, mix it and put it in an approved plastic gas container for that days use. If the fuel in my metal container, that I also use in my 4 cycle equipment is to be stored longer than 2-3 weeks, 30days max. I'll usually put that in my truck to get rid of it, especially during the summer. During the winter I'll buy fuel, add fuel stabilizer and usually store it all winter in the metal container in my outside shed untill I need it for whatever use. I feel that fuel can be safely stored longer in cold weather. I usuallly fill my emergency generator during the winter add fuel stabil and leave it all winter. I always make it a point to start it at least once or twice a month throughout the winter and have had no problems there. I drain that fuel, burn it in my truck and add a bit of fuel to run the generator from time to time in the summer. As far as my saws go, when they are to sit for awhile, I'll drain the tanks and idle them dry and leave the gas caps loose to vent the tanks. I believe in using fresh fuel and fuel stabilizer. Don't think I've had too much of a problem with my 2 or 4 cycle equipment since I've started doing this with this so called, 10% alcohol, oxygenated fuel we use in NY, these days. JMO. Lewis.
Erik D. Schmid
ArboristSite Member
This is an older thread, but I thought it would be appropriate to post this here rather than starting a new one. Anyway, Minnesota is about one step away from raising the amount of ethanol in fuels from 10% to 20%. Will this lower ratio have an adverse effect on my older equipment?
Yes, You will have to tune the saw richer to compensate and the issues eyeolf mentioned will be more frequant.
Erik D. Schmid
ArboristSite Member
That's what I thought. Thanks.
The oxygen content should not change with octane assuming both have 20%.
Do not use corn ethanol blended fuel in any small OPE engine period unless you want to dish out bucks to your local small engine shop. Amongst other things the ethanol attracts water big time and in the fall and winter some make/form a gel resembling tapioca which will clog the system. I have had these bad experiences twice and would not even use this stuff in a vehicle either unless there was no alternative.
My young friend at my local OPE shop loves ethanol fuel he claims it brings in lots of service revenue to them.
My young friend at my local OPE shop loves ethanol fuel he claims it brings in lots of service revenue to them.
16:1mix
Addicted to ArboristSite
Moonshine in my tank?
Hello all, from the midwest (Iowa)
This is corn country! And what do we do with all of that corn....make it into moonshine of course
(!)
For fuel purposes....the 'ethonol' that you speak of is corn-alcohol...hillbillies called it moonshine. Whan mixed with unleaded gasoline at a 10% rate it becomes what has been termed "Gasohol" here in the midwest for around 20 years. Other names have popped up such as 'ethonol blended' and other variations. A more recent development is an auto fuel called "E-85". This fuel is 85% ethonol and 15% gasoline. This fuel is not universaly interchangable with gasoline due to its energy content, and a host of other factors, not the least of which it does not like certain metals and plastics! Despite this, the "big three" have offered cars (Ford Taurus is one of them) that can use this fuel without problems.
As for using 10% blends in small engines, it's up to you and the manufacturer. I have used 10% blend since it became available in the 80's and the only problem I have ever had was with an old auto that had been in storage for years. Alcohol is a wonderful solvent and the first thing I did when I got the old car out was to fill the fuel tank with Gasohol and the solvent nature of the alcohol dissolved all kinds of grah-doo in the fuel system. The result was a number of fuel filter replacements, and then it was fine.
While I have used Gasohol in 4 cycle aircooled engines such as mowers, etc I have adopted the policy to not use the blended fuel in anything I have to fuel from a portable container (gas can). The reason, as stated above, is the long term storage of alcohol fuel is not as stable. The fact that alcohol absorbs water has never been a problem as there are products sold to do just that. "HEET" is an example of this. (This product may not be needed in your climate, but it essensial in Iowa winters.) In addition to using standard fuel in all of my gas can fed engines I ALWAYS use Sta-Bil. Last Summer I had a batch of gas go stale in less than a month in my old mowing outfit. The fuel tank had been exposed to the heat of the sun for several weeks and the fuel lost its votalitity. (Without Sta-Bil)
In defense of blended fuels, I've burned little else in my cars for 20+ years without any problems except the car that I took out of long term storage.
There are two ethanol producing plants within 25 miles of where I live. One bushel (56 lbs) of corn makes about 3 gallons of alcohol. After the starches are removed to make the alcohol the remaining parts of grain are a high protein feed supplement for livestock animals. One plant is using 40 semi loads of corn per day of operation.
On of the nearby Ethonal plants has this web site http://www.hawkeyerenewables.com/about.php
Thanks for the interesting conversations guys, I hope this gives a little perspective on the use of alcohol blended fuels!
dave (in Iowa)
eyolf said:
Hello all, from the midwest (Iowa)
This is corn country! And what do we do with all of that corn....make it into moonshine of course
(!)For fuel purposes....the 'ethonol' that you speak of is corn-alcohol...hillbillies called it moonshine. Whan mixed with unleaded gasoline at a 10% rate it becomes what has been termed "Gasohol" here in the midwest for around 20 years. Other names have popped up such as 'ethonol blended' and other variations. A more recent development is an auto fuel called "E-85". This fuel is 85% ethonol and 15% gasoline. This fuel is not universaly interchangable with gasoline due to its energy content, and a host of other factors, not the least of which it does not like certain metals and plastics! Despite this, the "big three" have offered cars (Ford Taurus is one of them) that can use this fuel without problems.
As for using 10% blends in small engines, it's up to you and the manufacturer. I have used 10% blend since it became available in the 80's and the only problem I have ever had was with an old auto that had been in storage for years. Alcohol is a wonderful solvent and the first thing I did when I got the old car out was to fill the fuel tank with Gasohol and the solvent nature of the alcohol dissolved all kinds of grah-doo in the fuel system. The result was a number of fuel filter replacements, and then it was fine.
While I have used Gasohol in 4 cycle aircooled engines such as mowers, etc I have adopted the policy to not use the blended fuel in anything I have to fuel from a portable container (gas can). The reason, as stated above, is the long term storage of alcohol fuel is not as stable. The fact that alcohol absorbs water has never been a problem as there are products sold to do just that. "HEET" is an example of this. (This product may not be needed in your climate, but it essensial in Iowa winters.) In addition to using standard fuel in all of my gas can fed engines I ALWAYS use Sta-Bil. Last Summer I had a batch of gas go stale in less than a month in my old mowing outfit. The fuel tank had been exposed to the heat of the sun for several weeks and the fuel lost its votalitity. (Without Sta-Bil)
In defense of blended fuels, I've burned little else in my cars for 20+ years without any problems except the car that I took out of long term storage.
There are two ethanol producing plants within 25 miles of where I live. One bushel (56 lbs) of corn makes about 3 gallons of alcohol. After the starches are removed to make the alcohol the remaining parts of grain are a high protein feed supplement for livestock animals. One plant is using 40 semi loads of corn per day of operation.
On of the nearby Ethonal plants has this web site http://www.hawkeyerenewables.com/about.php
Thanks for the interesting conversations guys, I hope this gives a little perspective on the use of alcohol blended fuels!
dave (in Iowa)
eyolf
Addicted to ArboristSite
Great points, Dave. Way back when, when I posted my original comments, I neglected to mention that *sometimes*, with *some* oils, oil suspension can be a problem...this from a local fuel jobber.
Not as often will one find that oxygenated fuels are a big problem with small 4-strokes, like lawnmowers. Especially if you don't store fuel in them over the off-season. Two-strokes are another story, as many modern air-cooled two-strokers are designed to be run near the ragged edge of destruction...50:1 mix ratio, heat, extreme revs. It pays to be careful what you feed 'em.
Minnesota legislature has been talking about upping the "corn" rate to 20%, but it's been an uphill battle. At 20%, most current autos will have trouble with fuel system parts, and some do not have the flexibility within their engine control sytems to compensate for the extra alky. Of course, many older engines just won't handle it at all without extensive mods, and the automakers have pretty much told Mn that we'd be on our own...the carmakers would refuse to honor warranties.
I'm against it, myself. Offer a high-ethanol concentration fuel and encourage automakers to develop a few new cars to run it...maybe a "green" type of car. Testing could be done in a metro area where it would be easy enough to supply the fuel and services required.
Not as often will one find that oxygenated fuels are a big problem with small 4-strokes, like lawnmowers. Especially if you don't store fuel in them over the off-season. Two-strokes are another story, as many modern air-cooled two-strokers are designed to be run near the ragged edge of destruction...50:1 mix ratio, heat, extreme revs. It pays to be careful what you feed 'em.
Minnesota legislature has been talking about upping the "corn" rate to 20%, but it's been an uphill battle. At 20%, most current autos will have trouble with fuel system parts, and some do not have the flexibility within their engine control sytems to compensate for the extra alky. Of course, many older engines just won't handle it at all without extensive mods, and the automakers have pretty much told Mn that we'd be on our own...the carmakers would refuse to honor warranties.
I'm against it, myself. Offer a high-ethanol concentration fuel and encourage automakers to develop a few new cars to run it...maybe a "green" type of car. Testing could be done in a metro area where it would be easy enough to supply the fuel and services required.
16:1mix
Addicted to ArboristSite
eyolf said:
I would oppose that too! The automakers all seem to concede that the 10% blend is acceptable in everything and are already offering "Flex Fuel" cars for up to the E85 standard. Mandatory 20% sounds like it would be a problem to me! I would at least like the option of feeding conventional gasoline to my engines. I didn't state it directly, but by inference that I do not use blended fuels in my 2-stroke engines either. Alcohol is such a fantastic solvent that I certainly do not need it diluting the lubricating oil in the fuel mix!
Iowa has a tax break of several cents per gallon for ethanol-blended fuel. As a result Gasohol is generally cheaper throughout Iowa. That sells a lot of blended fuel here but I’m willing to pay the extra few cents for the fuel that I need for the things I feed from the gas can such as the mowers, tractors, trimmers, chainsaws, back-up electric generator, etc.
jimbo1490
ArboristSite Guru
It's completely illogical, but not too suprising that the state of MN would be considering this change if it's for 'environmental' reasons since MN is not currently in any EPA air quality non-attainment listings, though Minneapolis-St Paul had previously been a non-attainment area for CO. They cleaned up without going to the new fuel, though. Note that US air quality has been on the upswing for 30 years or so, especially in the big cities. There are currently NO NOx non-attainment zones, for instance. The possible exception to all this cheer is of course Southern CA, which is still a mess, showing up on all the different non-attainment area maps for CO, particles and etc.(but not NOx). But changing fuels in MN is not going to help CA one little bit; it probably won't help MN's air either since it's good now.
Now if they want to do it to reduce dependency on foreign oil, that's reasonable in my view, given that we've foresworn recovering or even looking for oil in our own country.
The fact that alcohol absorbs water in fuel is more of an advantage than a problem. If your fuel would not mix with even a tiny bit of water, then any water that happened to get into the fuel tank would become stationary in the carbeurator, stopping the engine until the water was removed manually.
Jimbo
Jimbo
Now if they want to do it to reduce dependency on foreign oil, that's reasonable in my view, given that we've foresworn recovering or even looking for oil in our own country.
The fact that alcohol absorbs water in fuel is more of an advantage than a problem. If your fuel would not mix with even a tiny bit of water, then any water that happened to get into the fuel tank would become stationary in the carbeurator, stopping the engine until the water was removed manually.
Jimbo
Jimbo
Ethanol is nothing but a massive kick back, pork scheme.
Ethanol is nothing but a massive kick back, pork scheme. It also sucks as a fuel oxygenate, not to mention that the whole idea of oxy fuels being useful is based on non fuel injected cars the number of which are a slight.
eyolf
Addicted to ArboristSite
MN ethanol program has little to do with epa; it's all politics and paying off the corn producers. the only epa part would be to effectively force Luddites like me into buying new cars and trucks...I'm actually proud of driving worthless old junk to keep my cost per mile down! I put the extra cash away in my retirement instead.
The water in ethanol fuels is troublesome in two-strokes in different ways, dependaant upon concentration. At low concentrations the water remains in suspension and causes little harm except for slowly corroding the zinc, magnesium and aluminum in your fuel system. At slightly higher concentrations, it can condense out in the intake stream; this can be a bad thing for the engine internals, dislodging carbon, and I've heard some say even causing microscopic cracks in the nickasyl or chrome bore lining. Power will be down because of a lean mixture, but boiling the water droplets off in the combustion chamber will sometimes rob enough heat to keep your engine alive. Of course, there is a great danger of losing the oil film due to the wash effect and smearing some material off the side of the piston. If the concentration is high enough, water droplets will cause annoyance when they shut off fuel flow in the carb, but there is also an in-between point where water causes intermittent, variable metering troubles.
AS the fuel is stored, it picks up more and more water, especially in plastic containers. Also, the plastic containers permit some of the highly volatile molecules to escape, as well as allow air back in. Some of the escaping molecules are those involved in raising the anti-knock rating or making certain the fuel vaporizes well enough to start cold. A little of the gas/alky mix also polymerizes and oxidizes into new, undesireable compounds, some of them higher alcohols and esters that are essentially non-flammable in normal engine conditions, (building up a layer of crap inside the engine) or worse, into compounds that have little or no antiknock ability.
I try very hard not to use alky fuel in my tiny motors. In Mn, I buy off-road fuel intended for snomobilers, boating, etc. Spendy, but who burns up that much in chain saws, trimmers, etc? Just got my wife one of those cute little Stihl (our first Stihl!) mini-tillers, so theres "one more mouth to feed", but how much can it take?
The water in ethanol fuels is troublesome in two-strokes in different ways, dependaant upon concentration. At low concentrations the water remains in suspension and causes little harm except for slowly corroding the zinc, magnesium and aluminum in your fuel system. At slightly higher concentrations, it can condense out in the intake stream; this can be a bad thing for the engine internals, dislodging carbon, and I've heard some say even causing microscopic cracks in the nickasyl or chrome bore lining. Power will be down because of a lean mixture, but boiling the water droplets off in the combustion chamber will sometimes rob enough heat to keep your engine alive. Of course, there is a great danger of losing the oil film due to the wash effect and smearing some material off the side of the piston. If the concentration is high enough, water droplets will cause annoyance when they shut off fuel flow in the carb, but there is also an in-between point where water causes intermittent, variable metering troubles.
AS the fuel is stored, it picks up more and more water, especially in plastic containers. Also, the plastic containers permit some of the highly volatile molecules to escape, as well as allow air back in. Some of the escaping molecules are those involved in raising the anti-knock rating or making certain the fuel vaporizes well enough to start cold. A little of the gas/alky mix also polymerizes and oxidizes into new, undesireable compounds, some of them higher alcohols and esters that are essentially non-flammable in normal engine conditions, (building up a layer of crap inside the engine) or worse, into compounds that have little or no antiknock ability.
I try very hard not to use alky fuel in my tiny motors. In Mn, I buy off-road fuel intended for snomobilers, boating, etc. Spendy, but who burns up that much in chain saws, trimmers, etc? Just got my wife one of those cute little Stihl (our first Stihl!) mini-tillers, so theres "one more mouth to feed", but how much can it take?
