Falling with Dutchman
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dutchman
There are some who use it to walk a tree off the stump in a direction it is not leaning/likely to fall. That said there are warning signs of when not to use it. If the tree is hollow it will not twist/step in the right direction before it releases, it has no solid stump to ride/walk on. Small diameter trees do not work well, not enough meat to work with. A tree with widowmakers is likely to drop a limb on your head if it is asked to make an abrupt change in direction during it's fall. You are much more likely to pinch the saw in as the tree can move or you want it to lean out during the cut. If you cannot read a tree or can't calculate the distance/direction the top of the tree will move due to the closing of the kerf on your saw cuts at the bottom, stay away from the duchman cut. If you are not good/well practiced at using the duchman cut always have a saw, wedges and hammer handy. The saw to plunge cut into the kerf that has closed in order to set the wedges in to tip the tree over in the right direction should you miscut the dutchman and the tree stops moving. The dutchman is all about angles, subtle angles, cut into the tree or stump, used to walk the tree off the stump in the intended direction. For those that don't carry them, you should have hammer and wedges with you when falling trees irregaurdless of the cut you use.
It should be pointed out this is considered a dangerous practice. It is not for the faint of heart or inexperienced thrill seeker. It takes practice and is not a recommended cut for everyday use. In most places they tell you you'll be fired for using it.
There are some who use it to walk a tree off the stump in a direction it is not leaning/likely to fall. That said there are warning signs of when not to use it. If the tree is hollow it will not twist/step in the right direction before it releases, it has no solid stump to ride/walk on. Small diameter trees do not work well, not enough meat to work with. A tree with widowmakers is likely to drop a limb on your head if it is asked to make an abrupt change in direction during it's fall. You are much more likely to pinch the saw in as the tree can move or you want it to lean out during the cut. If you cannot read a tree or can't calculate the distance/direction the top of the tree will move due to the closing of the kerf on your saw cuts at the bottom, stay away from the duchman cut. If you are not good/well practiced at using the duchman cut always have a saw, wedges and hammer handy. The saw to plunge cut into the kerf that has closed in order to set the wedges in to tip the tree over in the right direction should you miscut the dutchman and the tree stops moving. The dutchman is all about angles, subtle angles, cut into the tree or stump, used to walk the tree off the stump in the intended direction. For those that don't carry them, you should have hammer and wedges with you when falling trees irregaurdless of the cut you use.
It should be pointed out this is considered a dangerous practice. It is not for the faint of heart or inexperienced thrill seeker. It takes practice and is not a recommended cut for everyday use. In most places they tell you you'll be fired for using it.
Stumper
One Man Band
Dutchmen are useful for altering fall direction rather than simply letting the lean take the tree where it most wants to go. Steering with a conventional notch and hinge generally suffices but there are occassions when you need more radical steering, a twist in the falling path to guide around an overhead obstacle while clearing another lower obstacle, etc. A step dutchmen is often useful for making a mild alteration in a not quite perfectly aimed face that you don't want to deepen/recut. All dutchmen types can be useful techniques but they need a good understanding of the procedure, physics involved and the properties of the wood being felled.
Yes Clarence, some arborists understand and use Dutchmen(though most have never heard of the term). I agree with Spydy that the common stepcut used in jumping branches is a utilization of Dutchman principles and it is commonly used by guys who have never even considered altering fall direction with kerfs, 'steps', or 'swings' using multiple face cuts.
Yes Clarence, some arborists understand and use Dutchmen(though most have never heard of the term). I agree with Spydy that the common stepcut used in jumping branches is a utilization of Dutchman principles and it is commonly used by guys who have never even considered altering fall direction with kerfs, 'steps', or 'swings' using multiple face cuts.
Lumberjack
Banned
I used onetoday to help swing a uprooted tree's spar.
I had removed the top of the tree that was against the lines. The tree was over concrete, likely the foundation from a shed or other building. I used a large open face with a dutchmen to swing the spar without using a rope, worked like a charm, got a good 60 degrees of swing, no damage to the concrete, all is well.
I had removed the top of the tree that was against the lines. The tree was over concrete, likely the foundation from a shed or other building. I used a large open face with a dutchmen to swing the spar without using a rope, worked like a charm, got a good 60 degrees of swing, no damage to the concrete, all is well.
jp hallman
ArboristSite Guru
TheTreeSpyder said:
What tha'...what are you saying? I'm sorry. I can't begin to comprehend what they hell you're talking about here.
jp hallman
ArboristSite Guru
Dutchman is pretty simple. Leave a "chunk" of wood in the face-cut that will cause the tree to go where you'd like it to fall.
I use a swing dutchman regularly. The short pine here is very easy and forgiving to swing. For me it is usefull to get around another tree that is in the line of fall and can also save a lot of wedgeing time and work.
I would not swing a tree over a house. Over a barbwire fence, yes all day long if I had a need. I would not swing a tree over a house. Did I just say that?
You can tell from looking at stumps that most all production cutters use some form of a swing cut at least some of the time. Some will not admit it for good reasons.
For myself, a swing dutchman is pretty much just like in Dent"s book with approx. the lower third of the hinge area severed before the back cut ever starts. I have seen pics on here where the hinge wood was intact all the way across the stump on a "swing dutchman". I am always learning new things but I dont see how that could swing very much.
The thing about these cuts and why they are a bad idea in a lot of situations is because of the things that can go wrong. One of the worst is if you have misread the leans of the tree. If you are cutting and not watching your saw is pinched and the tree is falling right towards your head.
There are different degrees of it. If I cant afford to let it get away from me and fall to the head lean I would never use it.
Sorry Spyder but I cant understand your posts either. So many flourishey words that I get part way into it and just give up. But I am a little slow to comprehend a lot of things.
I would not swing a tree over a house. Over a barbwire fence, yes all day long if I had a need. I would not swing a tree over a house. Did I just say that?
You can tell from looking at stumps that most all production cutters use some form of a swing cut at least some of the time. Some will not admit it for good reasons.
For myself, a swing dutchman is pretty much just like in Dent"s book with approx. the lower third of the hinge area severed before the back cut ever starts. I have seen pics on here where the hinge wood was intact all the way across the stump on a "swing dutchman". I am always learning new things but I dont see how that could swing very much.
The thing about these cuts and why they are a bad idea in a lot of situations is because of the things that can go wrong. One of the worst is if you have misread the leans of the tree. If you are cutting and not watching your saw is pinched and the tree is falling right towards your head.
There are different degrees of it. If I cant afford to let it get away from me and fall to the head lean I would never use it.
Sorry Spyder but I cant understand your posts either. So many flourishey words that I get part way into it and just give up. But I am a little slow to comprehend a lot of things.
Stumper
One Man Band
jp, It is just Spydeyspeak-everyone gets headaches from it but if you muddle through you WILL think. Regarding your second post-What you are describing is a step Dutchman-most common (intentional) and easily used Dutchman. There are others that are more complex-and more dramatic in effect.--ANd as Spydey was alluding to-they all (including he simple step) work by closing a portion of the face(or kerf) early in the fall causing the tree's energy/momentum to work to create a reaction to the sudden obstruction.
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
zen and then some
I'm glad to see that the Zen of Falling Master has broken two more.
If you really want to befuddle yourselves, go to his web site. There is some intelligent stuff there, but it can take awhile to sort it out. It is worse than reading a Forest Service redacted report.
You can always fight fire with fire. Come up with your own terminology and jump back and forth with philosophical thoughts.
For instance:
"To me, the leveraged weight and direction of the tree is power. Face Open/ Faced Closed giving binary commands as to use that leveraged tree power for push force or pull force. Walking a back-cut down to first folding empowers the hinge/face mechanics. From here the power is taken and used either to push or pull. An open/ tensioned side of face giving most pull force from the leveraged weight power of tree; a closed/ compressed face using the same power for push force. A tree is the largest, heaviest and stiffest form of life; these are the 3 main multipliers for leveraging; so we play with the forces of leveraged power in a beast; like no other" could become.
Where the tree leans is important.
I'm glad to see that the Zen of Falling Master has broken two more.
If you really want to befuddle yourselves, go to his web site. There is some intelligent stuff there, but it can take awhile to sort it out. It is worse than reading a Forest Service redacted report.
You can always fight fire with fire. Come up with your own terminology and jump back and forth with philosophical thoughts.
For instance:
"To me, the leveraged weight and direction of the tree is power. Face Open/ Faced Closed giving binary commands as to use that leveraged tree power for push force or pull force. Walking a back-cut down to first folding empowers the hinge/face mechanics. From here the power is taken and used either to push or pull. An open/ tensioned side of face giving most pull force from the leveraged weight power of tree; a closed/ compressed face using the same power for push force. A tree is the largest, heaviest and stiffest form of life; these are the 3 main multipliers for leveraging; so we play with the forces of leveraged power in a beast; like no other" could become.
Where the tree leans is important.
jp hallman
ArboristSite Guru
I understand what a Dutchman is. I've cut em' in before(I fell trees for a living)...I just thought I'd lost it wading through spydey's post. Had to keep checking back to see if I was still on the correct site.<snicker>Stumper said:
jp hallman said:
I think I'll go get myself checked for Attention Deficit Disorder...I couldn't make it all the way through spydey's post without becoming really confused. I think he said some good things but I'm not sure and now my head hurts
clearance said:
Dent's book will explain a dutchman better than just about anyone I've heard of. Sometimes they're kinda fun to play around with but keep a good escape path .
Tree Sling'r
Addicted to ArboristSite
I use a dutchmen for falling all the time - mostly the big stuff. Doug Fir works best - it has the strongest holding wood to hold on the up hill side while your low wood is sawed off to accomidate the dutchmen. I use them when there are two different directions that the tree could go. I use my dutchmen to accomidate the down hill lean while my under cut faces the direction of the lay. They are quite simple and in my book no dangerous than any other method of felling. They save jacking - wedging and most importantly wood. But like everything else there is a time and a place for this method.
BlueRidgeMark
Addicted to ArboristSite
I get the impression that Spydeyspeak is the result of an intelligent and broadly educated person attempting to communicate in something other than his native language. Worse yet, the 2nd language he's trying to use is English - a very difficult language to learn, from all I've heard.Is that correct?
In any case, the Flash illustrations and other diagrams are very educational.
Ekka
Addicted to ArboristSite
I have never heard of a dutchman (in the wood world not geographic for the smarties) till I got on these sites with you yanks.
I would like to see pics and especially video of the different types and what ya'll going on about.
We might have some other name or whatever, but I'm not sure if you are over cutting your notch, step cutting, leaving bits in the gob or what??
So please, some-one really good with this could you please get some pics or video ... maybe even diagrams.
Thankyou
I would like to see pics and especially video of the different types and what ya'll going on about.
We might have some other name or whatever, but I'm not sure if you are over cutting your notch, step cutting, leaving bits in the gob or what??
So please, some-one really good with this could you please get some pics or video ... maybe even diagrams.
Thankyou
TackleTree
ArboristSite Operative
I think that due to the vast amount of terminology meaning the same thing, a thread or forum with definitions of all the terminology might help get everyone on the same page. Just an idea.
A Dutch(man) is a cut face; that causes an early close in face. This is achieved by placing a rock or block in the face to cause early closing, cutting the face to be more open on one side than the other, kerfing in on face/ crossing facecuts.
The most often used Dutchman is accidentally and dangerously by crossing FaceCuts. This small kerf opening makes what Dent calls a "Face, within a Face"; whereby the almost immediately closing/ accidentally made 'inner face' / dutchman becomes the ruling mechanics; no matter how wide your intended face was the dutchman closes early. In the BarberChair Warning i tried to show as others before have; how this accidental crossing of FaceCuts can lead to a deadly BarberChair. But, also too; how i theorize that is more likely to happen when the horizontal cut crosses the slanted one. For, when the slanted crosses the horizontal cut; the early close force is leveraged across the fibers; just like the flexxing of a hinge. Whereby when the Horizontal cut bypasses the Slanted cut in Face; the closing force pushes directly up(/inline with) the column of fibers/ the direction in which they don't flex; but give raw push back instead. Likewise if trying to use the Kerf Dutch force, the push would come more from a horizontal than slanted kerf.
In the building example of an obstruction in the distance of path, rather than in the face/close to pivot on path; i said the buildings would be off to the side. For even if the tall building incurred early in travel was straight ahead; it too would get crushed or seize tree travel. Just like if Dutchman is full across it can cause a seize in travel; that can become a BarberChair. But, if building or Dutchman is incurred early and is off to side, it can steer tree; by not confronting tree fully; but rather confronting tree on 1 side and offering the other side as relief/ path of least resistance to the loaded force of tree moving forward(unleashed when BackCut reduced holding leverage enough to make tree a moving force).
When we make FaceCut(s); we are putting off the closing force until later; Only using the closing force of the power; at finish to tear off the hinge. Generally this closing force is too late to affect steering direction; for the tree is already committed. Dutching does opposite, makes the closing earlier instead of delayed earlier. While it still can force the tearing off/away of hinge; the spar is still at a softer angle/ not as committed and this early closing can effect steering. The differance is the same as any other obstruction in path. If building is encountered on one side late/ 8' off of ground when tree is all the way bent over and speeding; building can get crushed. But if building is encountered in falling path early, while tree is hardly bent forward, not moving as fast, not as leveraged and 60' tree brushes 50' building as tree just starts to move forward; tree can be more easily pushed to the side by the building. The 1st scenario is like a regular open face, the 2nd would be like using a Dutchman to steer; only a Dutchman in felling is something blocking path close to hinge pivot/ in face.
That is what these were supposed to be:
Dutch Push in Face
Dutch Push Archives
When the tree's BackCut 'activates' the tree/empowers motion; we have loaded force available to use. That means either push or pull force. The tree force is a primary force of such and such a (finite) value. The subsequent motion + controls at hinge restricting/ redirecting motion are jsut responding force values matching the potential falling force. The Tapered hinge to opposite side of lean and to rear; accentuates the use of the Pull force strategic use of the available power. A Dutchman on 1 side operates similarly, just uses opposite strategy. It takes available force and controls on the same side as lean , forward of hinge (where tapered is opposite side, rear) to give the same force expressed as push (where tapered is pull). So working together tapered hinge and side dutchman can cover all available bases; using force for both push and pull at once to steer.
The more the lean forward and sidelean offer force loading, the more these strategies are empowered. So, the 'worse' it is; the better they (try) work. Thus, this stategy works well for me on horizontal limbs to be moved horizontally; because they are in most leveraged position, and you want to ride the most leveraged path. Though note, that for the Tapered Hinge to work, it needs elastic fiber that can stretch to give it's pull force through. And likewise, the Dutchman strategy side needs solid(but not necessarily elastic fiber/can be dead if till solid) faces; to give most resistance to close/ hardest push back. Thus, if something is drier or dead(but not decayed/ rotted); i might add or depend more on push of Dutch, as opposed to pull of Tapered.
i don't try to befuddle anyone really. What is said to be felt as jumping around; i try to offer as the connecting threads of all this; a view of this all as balancing opposites to maximum use. Whether that be push/ pull, tapered/ dutchman, male/ female, +/-, equal / opposite, antanane/ ground, yin/ yang etc.; just from different disciplines to cross lessons over from;some of which might be more familiar.
The most often used Dutchman is accidentally and dangerously by crossing FaceCuts. This small kerf opening makes what Dent calls a "Face, within a Face"; whereby the almost immediately closing/ accidentally made 'inner face' / dutchman becomes the ruling mechanics; no matter how wide your intended face was the dutchman closes early. In the BarberChair Warning i tried to show as others before have; how this accidental crossing of FaceCuts can lead to a deadly BarberChair. But, also too; how i theorize that is more likely to happen when the horizontal cut crosses the slanted one. For, when the slanted crosses the horizontal cut; the early close force is leveraged across the fibers; just like the flexxing of a hinge. Whereby when the Horizontal cut bypasses the Slanted cut in Face; the closing force pushes directly up(/inline with) the column of fibers/ the direction in which they don't flex; but give raw push back instead. Likewise if trying to use the Kerf Dutch force, the push would come more from a horizontal than slanted kerf.
In the building example of an obstruction in the distance of path, rather than in the face/close to pivot on path; i said the buildings would be off to the side. For even if the tall building incurred early in travel was straight ahead; it too would get crushed or seize tree travel. Just like if Dutchman is full across it can cause a seize in travel; that can become a BarberChair. But, if building or Dutchman is incurred early and is off to side, it can steer tree; by not confronting tree fully; but rather confronting tree on 1 side and offering the other side as relief/ path of least resistance to the loaded force of tree moving forward(unleashed when BackCut reduced holding leverage enough to make tree a moving force).
When we make FaceCut(s); we are putting off the closing force until later; Only using the closing force of the power; at finish to tear off the hinge. Generally this closing force is too late to affect steering direction; for the tree is already committed. Dutching does opposite, makes the closing earlier instead of delayed earlier. While it still can force the tearing off/away of hinge; the spar is still at a softer angle/ not as committed and this early closing can effect steering. The differance is the same as any other obstruction in path. If building is encountered on one side late/ 8' off of ground when tree is all the way bent over and speeding; building can get crushed. But if building is encountered in falling path early, while tree is hardly bent forward, not moving as fast, not as leveraged and 60' tree brushes 50' building as tree just starts to move forward; tree can be more easily pushed to the side by the building. The 1st scenario is like a regular open face, the 2nd would be like using a Dutchman to steer; only a Dutchman in felling is something blocking path close to hinge pivot/ in face.
That is what these were supposed to be:
Dutch Push in Face
Dutch Push Archives
When the tree's BackCut 'activates' the tree/empowers motion; we have loaded force available to use. That means either push or pull force. The tree force is a primary force of such and such a (finite) value. The subsequent motion + controls at hinge restricting/ redirecting motion are jsut responding force values matching the potential falling force. The Tapered hinge to opposite side of lean and to rear; accentuates the use of the Pull force strategic use of the available power. A Dutchman on 1 side operates similarly, just uses opposite strategy. It takes available force and controls on the same side as lean , forward of hinge (where tapered is opposite side, rear) to give the same force expressed as push (where tapered is pull). So working together tapered hinge and side dutchman can cover all available bases; using force for both push and pull at once to steer.
The more the lean forward and sidelean offer force loading, the more these strategies are empowered. So, the 'worse' it is; the better they (try) work. Thus, this stategy works well for me on horizontal limbs to be moved horizontally; because they are in most leveraged position, and you want to ride the most leveraged path. Though note, that for the Tapered Hinge to work, it needs elastic fiber that can stretch to give it's pull force through. And likewise, the Dutchman strategy side needs solid(but not necessarily elastic fiber/can be dead if till solid) faces; to give most resistance to close/ hardest push back. Thus, if something is drier or dead(but not decayed/ rotted); i might add or depend more on push of Dutch, as opposed to pull of Tapered.
i don't try to befuddle anyone really. What is said to be felt as jumping around; i try to offer as the connecting threads of all this; a view of this all as balancing opposites to maximum use. Whether that be push/ pull, tapered/ dutchman, male/ female, +/-, equal / opposite, antanane/ ground, yin/ yang etc.; just from different disciplines to cross lessons over from;some of which might be more familiar.
Jim1NZ
ArboristSite Guru
Although hard to comprehend, its great spider! You go to such an effort to teach others thanks.
I would much rather learn reading your posts any day than some BS about guys spiking trees
I would much rather learn reading your posts any day than some BS about guys spiking trees
Ekka
Addicted to ArboristSite
HEy Jim, do they use that term in Kiwiland ... you know, Dutchman?
Jim1NZ
ArboristSite Guru
I have never heard of it before. Its very interesting though, would really like to see some video!!!
The closest thing i have seen is what they call a jump cut, similar to the dutch cut but the kurf is cut alway through the scarf. More like a overcut scarf but on purpose
The closest thing i have seen is what they call a jump cut, similar to the dutch cut but the kurf is cut alway through the scarf. More like a overcut scarf but on purpose
