general chainsaw motor timing question

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B_Turner

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Something I've wondered about for awhile is how most modern chainsaws deal with spark timing.

Do some saws have no provision for dynamically changing the timing (based on rpm)? On those that do advance the timing with rpm, at what rpm does the advacing begin, and how much does it advance it (in degrees)? (Typically)

Just wondering.
 
I am curious about this also.

Do they use CDI ignitions?

are there built in timing curves into the CDI unit? as well as a rev limit?

If so, is it possible to move the ignition pickup, and slightly advance the ignition timing?
 
Some saws have multi-point igntion "curves". Basically, Easy start - Retarded, and then advance up to the max point "safe limit" (determined by a slew of factors including by manufacturing variation, engine life, expected gas quality etc etc).. Some advance quicker then back off a bit at the end ("flatten curve"). Stihl's later ignitions are mostly 3 or 4 point right now.

Yes, you can often advance the timing slightly, but with care. For a work saw, I'd just leave it all alone.


I can't remember the numbers... but it's real obvious with a timing light.
 
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A little history first...
Back in the points/condenser days, there was no timing advance on most small engines. For a lawnmower engine that runs in the 1000 to 3500 RPM range it didn't matter that much. I don't think Briggs has put electronic timing advance in their modules even now. But for a saw engine that idles at 2800 and runs up to 13000 RPM at WOT, the timing should be close to TDC for easiest starting, and advance to as much as 20 to 30 degrees of advance at full throttle. This was not possible with points so the engineer just picked a setting as a compromise, say at 17 degrees advanced. This made starter kickback possible if you didn't pull really hard and fast, and still kept the engine from performing as good as it would have with more advance at WOT under load. Then CDI (capacitor discharge ignition) came along. Many engines can be converted to CDI with a kit to replace the points, but the timing is still static at some fixed setting. The industry has been using CDI for over 25 years now, but microprocessor controlled timing did not come along until about the last 10 years or so, maybe less. I can only speak knowledgeably about STIHL, and they have advance curves in just about every engine being built as far as current models that are less than probably 8 years since introduction is concerned. I don't think some of the older designs, like the MS 660 or MS 440 have it, but the MS 361, MS 441, and any recent models do. This allows easy starting with very little chance of the starter handle being jerked out of your hand, yet allows full advance as far as 25 to 30 degrees as RPM goes up, so you get better performance, better fuel economy, and lower emissions.
I would guess that most major brands have a chip in the module, but I would be surprised to see the el-cheapo imports doing it.
It is easy to check, just hook up an auto timing light and watch the flywheel while you rev the engine up and down. If the flywheel fins appear to move you have an advance curve, and if they don't then the timing is fixed.
If you guys want more on how these modules work let me know and I will post more details.
 
A little history first...
Back in the points/condenser days, there was no timing advance on most small engines. For a lawnmower engine that runs in the 1000 to 3500 RPM range it didn't matter that much. I don't think Briggs has put electronic timing advance in their modules even now. But for a saw engine that idles at 2800 and runs up to 13000 RPM at WOT, the timing should be close to TDC for easiest starting, and advance to as much as 20 to 30 degrees of advance at full throttle. This was not possible with points so the engineer just picked a setting as a compromise, say at 17 degrees advanced. This made starter kickback possible if you didn't pull really hard and fast, and still kept the engine from performing as good as it would have with more advance at WOT under load. Then CDI (capacitor discharge ignition) came along. Many engines can be converted to CDI with a kit to replace the points, but the timing is still static at some fixed setting. The industry has been using CDI for over 25 years now, but microprocessor controlled timing did not come along until about the last 10 years or so, maybe less. I can only speak knowledgeably about STIHL, and they have advance curves in just about every engine being built as far as current models that are less than probably 8 years since introduction is concerned. I don't think some of the older designs, like the MS 660 or MS 440 have it, but the MS 361, MS 441, and any recent models do. This allows easy starting with very little chance of the starter handle being jerked out of your hand, yet allows full advance as far as 25 to 30 degrees as RPM goes up, so you get better performance, better fuel economy, and lower emissions.
I would guess that most major brands have a chip in the module, but I would be surprised to see the el-cheapo imports doing it.
It is easy to check, just hook up an auto timing light and watch the flywheel while you rev the engine up and down. If the flywheel fins appear to move you have an advance curve, and if they don't then the timing is fixed.
If you guys want more on how these modules work let me know and I will post more details.

Give us everything you have..........Pictures and text.....:cheers: :cheers:



.
 
I find it interesting. I'll probably put a timing light to some of my saws just for curiousity sake.

I don't know if it's related, but I've always noticed some saws, like my 066, can sort of yank the starter handle out of my hand if I am not "positive" enough when I start it dead cold. Not a problem, but on a really cold morning it can smart without a glove. My 395 never does that.

My sense is my new 880 is like my 066 in that regard, preferring me to have the piston in the right position and then a very positive pull. (It starts just fine, though.)

What really got me to thinking about saw timing advance issues is when I bought the new 3120. The thing had monster torque, and I've been told in part it was due to timing changes Husky put in effect in the 3120 when they lowered the ignition limit. It may me realize I had no idea what sort of timing curves any of my saws have....
 
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IWhat really got me to thinking about saw timing advance issues is when I bought the new 3120. The thing had monster torque, and I've been told in part it was due to timing changes Husky put in effect in the 3120 when they lowered the ignition limit. It may me realize I had no idea what sort of timing curves any of my saws have....


066 "yank"? Ha - try an 064 sometime.

If you kill the top end RPM, you can advance the ignition earlier... and stay in the "safe zone".
 
great info!

I would like to see a plotted chart , or curve with a 3 or 4 point ignition.

the ones IM used to messing with, are TDC for starting, then ramp up ( 30 degrees for snappy bottom end) , and start to ramp back down and retard at the upper rpms to limit exhaust gas temps I guess and keep from melting down.
 
Interesting thread, I'd never given any thought to the advance of ignition timing on a small engine of any type.

Two thumbs up!
:greenchainsaw:
 
Here is some stuff from the Bronze training.
A typical CDI module may look something like this on the inside, simplified of course:

attachment.php


As the flywheel goes by the armature, the magnetic lines of flux travel up through the armature and induce current flow in the primary windings. The energy is stored in the capacitor, and the diode prevents the AC current from bleeding off. When the chip tells the transistor when to close, the capacitor discharges and the current flow in the primary cuts through the secondary and fires the plug. I don't know what kind of voltages are at work in the primary, but it typically has around 200 turns of wire in it, but the secondary has like 20,000 turns so you get a step up transformer effect, so a module can develop 15k volts depending on the design. Since the capacitor stores the energy, the flywheel can roll on by the module, and the chip will decide when to fire the plug by comparing how often the flywheel comes by to a built in quartz clock, to determine RPM. It changes the timing based on the software it was programmed with when it was made.
At 12,000 rpm the plug is firing the spark plug 200 times a second, so all this is happening really fast but they tell me electrons move at the speed of light, and microprocessors can think really fast, so I guess it is all relative.
Here is the timing curve used to illustrate a typical curve for a module with a rev-limiter in it, shown by the red line. The blue line is a module with no advance. STIHL does not use an ignition rev-limiter in any saws, but they do in most all line trimmer engines.

attachment.php


So at cranking speed the timing is virtually nil, but as soon as the engine fires and the RPM comes up, the module advances the timing for a smooth idle, and then continually advances the timing as RPM goes up until the rev-limiter setting is reacher. Then it starts backing the timing down, which will prevent the RPM from going any higher. Early module designs just took away every other spark to limit RPM. When you look at this with a timing light on a running engine, it is a smooth curve, not angled like this picture.

attachment.php


This is an early module, without the full blown microprocessor that is used now. There is a little chip on the backside of the board that makes the changes. The primary is wound around the left leg of the armature, with the secondary wound around the primary. There are some plastic separators between the windings, but the primary and secondary are each one continuous piece of wire. Each is grounded to the armature, with the primary attached to the "switch", either the points or the transistor. The other end of the secondary is attached to the spark plug. The capacitor is between the legs of the armature under the circuit board, so you can't see it here. The transistor is the little black spot you can see hanging off the end of the board between the legs of the armature. The winding on the right leg is the power supply for the circuit board, and on the board is a DC regulator to make the voltage right for the board and the chip.
You can't go in and reprogram the chip (PROM: programmable read only memory) like you can on a car computer. The software is loaded when the module is made. I just hope the OEM's will come up with a reasonably priced tester that will allow us to verify the timing curve for troubleshooting purposes. About the only option now is to replace a suspect module with a known good one, which isn't all that bad for a dealer, but it would be nice to know for sure if a module has a fault.
 
Nice info...

In addition to the trimmers and cutoff saws, there are a couple of older modules out there have have rev limiting - one is the current 088.

A diagnostic port would be real nice... Luckily most die by getting "stuck" in full retard.
 
How can this be not sticky?
So, changing a point and condenser to an universal electronic ignition will give a saw a total new life. It will be easier to start (10 BTDC instead of 28). Smoother idle (meaning you will have to lower the idle after changing), better power at load, and no excessive rpm to kill the saw.

Why am I not able to find any timing curve charts for any of those unverisal ignition modules (nova, megafire, atom)? Why aren't the manufacturers showing them? Or at least tell us the BTDC at load. They are not flat, aren't they?
 
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How can this be not sticky?
So, changing a point and condenser to an universal electronic ignition will give a saw a total new life. It will be easier to start (10 BTDC instead of 28). Smoother idle (meaning you will have to lower the idle after changing), better power at load, and no excessive rpm to kill the saw.

Why am I not able to find any timing curve charts for any of those unverisal ignition modules (nova, megafire, atom)? Why aren't the manufacturers showing them? Or at least tell us the BTDC at load. They are not flat, aren't they?

Very likely. I recently equipped a Mac 250Super with a nova ? module that I got from PES+ and it became a different animal ; excellent start and better throttle response. My impression : it ran much better.
 
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