Granberg Chisel Bit File-N-Joint

[shootingarts]

I agree with everything you said. But, you just had to be there...I mean I've done business with him for yrs. If he didn't want to do the job in the first place, he should have manned up and said so. So as it is, after a long relationship with him, I've got a knot in my stomach thinking about it. I think I'm gonna go back in, ask for my stuff back and offer to pay him for the 'talking about it' part.

Yeah, I do hear what you are saying. Sounds like you considered the guy a friend. There is a pretty good plan "B" I just suggested in a reply to Phil. http://www.cnczone.com/forums/

High grade aluminum isn't that expensive in the small sizes we need and I also have access to "drops" of industrial grade plastics that are also plenty big for our wants. Price is free to me when I need a piece or two but I would say $20-$30 bucks or so plus shipping to the machinist for enough to make a dozen or two of the guides, say fifty bucks plus shipping on the outside. If I can find it I already have enough 6061t6 aluminum to make a half-dozen to a dozen of them myself, end pieces and inserts. Need to spend a long day in my friend's shop when he isn't busy but I'm not even up to the drive right now. The mileage is catching up with me.

Hu

 

[Philbert]

3D printing?

Philbert

 

[shootingarts]

Good ideas or bad, they are coming!

Kevin,

There is some stuff called cerro-safe. Would be a little expensive but it is a metal that melts at below the boiling point of water. Might need to be dressed slightly or just as you suggest used inside a piece of something else and the file cast into it. I like that idea, a simple solution to what is actually a fairly complex problem.

The cerro-safe is about 20-25 dollars a half pound depending where you buy but it is very easy to recover and use over and over. Twenty dollars worth would do a halve dozen files or more, then when they are dull melt it down and do it again.

This is the ad for it for sale in Brownell's, using it because there is a fair amount of good technical info in the ad, I doubt they compete with any of our sponsors either. http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-t...rosafe-reg-chamber-casting-alloy-prod384.aspx

I'm getting pumped again! I have been considering making the inserts disposable but you have taken it a step further than I did. That is how this may come together for us, a few thoughts from one, a few from another.

Hu

 

[Real1shepherd]

Yeah, I do hear what you are saying. Sounds like you considered the guy a friend. There is a pretty good plan "B" I just suggested in a reply to Phil. http://www.cnczone.com/forums/

High grade aluminum isn't that expensive in the small sizes we need and I also have access to "drops" of industrial grade plastics that are also plenty big for our wants. Price is free to me when I need a piece or two but I would say $20-$30 bucks or so plus shipping to the machinist for enough to make a dozen or two of the guides, say fifty bucks plus shipping on the outside. If I can find it I already have enough 6061t6 aluminum to make a half-dozen to a dozen of them myself, end pieces and inserts. Need to spend a long day in my friend's shop when he isn't busy but I'm not even up to the drive right now. The mileage is catching up with me.

Hu

Hu, I got an email from Philbert right before I went back to the machinist to get my stuff back. It was a timely, 'magical' suggestion(see post #100) to make the barrels/bushings out of tubing and then to just fill in with epoxy...throwing the file away after it's used up and starting over again with new file & new tubing/epoxy. That not only eliminates a set of set screws from Bob's design, it eliminates the entire process of milling the slots for the file. ....since we're trying to do this on the cheap and not tax a machinist's time.

So given that, I went back to the machinist and he's happy & I'm happy...simple. He'll still charge me right @$100 I'm betting.....just because he didn't want to do this in the first place. If this works and it should, I'm out $100, the miniscule price of the tubing & epoxy in the future and I can deal with that.

If all of this comes together and the sharpener works, I can ask him about doing a run of the end pieces, modifying the hand-piece and milling the bushings/barrels. You'd have to buy a current G-106B and send. If he's not the least bit interested, then I'm done and I have this prototype; 'The FrankenG-106B'.

Kevin

 

[Real1shepherd]

Good ideas or bad, they are coming!

Kevin,

There is some stuff called cerro-safe. Would be a little expensive but it is a metal that melts at below the boiling point of water. Might need to be dressed slightly or just as you suggest used inside a piece of something else and the file cast into it. I like that idea, a simple solution to what is actually a fairly complex problem.

The cerro-safe is about 20-25 dollars a half pound depending where you buy but it is very easy to recover and use over and over. Twenty dollars worth would do a halve dozen files or more, then when they are dull melt it down and do it again.

This is the ad for it for sale in Brownell's, using it because there is a fair amount of good technical info in the ad, I doubt they compete with any of our sponsors either. http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-t...rosafe-reg-chamber-casting-alloy-prod384.aspx

I'm getting pumped again! I have been considering making the inserts disposable but you have taken it a step further than I did. That is how this may come together for us, a few thoughts from one, a few from another.

Hu

 

[Real1shepherd]

Hu, I like how all our idea are coming together...should be a model of how the Internet could work! Indeed the cerro-safe sounds like a better long-term solution over epoxy each time for a new file. Wow....Brownell's is a blast from the past for me.....haven't seen one of their catalogs in over 25yrs....good stuff! It does say that when the stuff finally cools/sets days later it will slightly expand(200hrs later it expands .0025). I don't know if that will be a problem inside the tubing or not....the machined ends will have a specific diameter....just thinking out loud?

Kevin

 

[shootingarts]

I was thinking I'd be sure the file and end assembly was outside the guide from that magic one hour to twenty-four hour period to let it grow to max. I don't know if it will be an issue or not. Might need a quick polish on the outside of the tubing with a little sandpaper or file but letting me custom fit behind the machinist wouldn't be a negative in my book. After shooting benchrest a little many years ago I'm pretty much hopelessly obsessive about snug fits. Kinda thinking that the rigid copper tubing or a fitting might be what I use for my sleeve to have dissimilar metals and less chance of galling. Probably almost zero chance of galling there anyway but It'll look purty too!

Putting our heads together does seem to be working and glad you and the machinist found some harmony. I hate losing old friendships these days even if they are not real close and sometimes ten minutes in a machine shop can save us hours at home.

Final thought is to find something or have someone with a cad program draw a circle with the degree marks needed the size that turns out to be needed. Stamp right through the paper temporarily glued on and we should be in business.

Hu

 

[Real1shepherd]

I was thinking I'd be sure the file and end assembly was outside the guide from that magic one hour to twenty-four hour period to let it grow to max. I don't know if it will be an issue or not. Might need a quick polish on the outside of the tubing with a little sandpaper or file but letting me custom fit behind the machinist wouldn't be a negative in my book. After shooting benchrest a little many years ago I'm pretty much hopelessly obsessive about snug fits. Kinda thinking that the rigid copper tubing or a fitting might be what I use for my sleeve to have dissimilar metals and less chance of galling. Probably almost zero chance of galling there anyway but It'll look purty too!

Putting our heads together does seem to be working and glad you and the machinist found some harmony. I hate losing old friendships these days even if they are not real close and sometimes ten minutes in a machine shop can save us hours at home.

Final thought is to find something or have someone with a cad program draw a circle with the degree marks needed the size that turns out to be needed. Stamp right through the paper temporarily glued on and we should be in business.

Hu

That's an excellent idea on the hash marks...just glue them right on! I'm just guessing though on memory....that they were about two degrees each...might have been five. Unfortunately, that's where the G-107 elusive instructions would come in handy. Everything about this project would be nearly perfect with a copy of those original use instruction.

Yeah, .0025 isn't a lot of expansion and may just need a slight 'polish'. Hell, I used to make bullets for black powder...you could use pure lead as well, methinks?

Kevin

 

[Real1shepherd]

3D printing?

Philbert

Yeah, I already thought of that but there are few places yet that fool with small orders/runs. The equipment I'm told starts at about $300,000, so I don't really blame them. In time this process will rule everything. Nearly extinct machinery can be made whole again with new parts etc. It would be a real boon to any collector with devices that have moving parts...the possibilities are endless. They're even experimenting with human organs and this process...

Kevin

 

[shootingarts]

That's an excellent idea on the hash marks...just glue them right on! I'm just guessing though on memory....that they were about two degrees each...might have been five. Unfortunately, that's where the G-107 elusive instructions would come in handy. Everything about this project would be nearly perfect with a copy of those original use instruction.

Yeah, .0025 isn't a lot of expansion and may just need a slight 'polish'. Hell, I used to make bullets for black powder...you could use pure lead as well, methinks?

Kevin

The hash marks can either be on a disk and radiating out from center or find the circumference of the adapter and do a little cyphering to print out a strip of degree marks. The paper won't last and potential for various issues so I would just stamp right through the marks and remove the paper to begin with.

Years ago I had a very large document printer available and calibrated the size of the printout of my cad drawings and such to draw some perfect patterns to make some square to round transitions for around 1/4" plate and large diameter pipe. That was a pretty big deal in the early nineties! The engineer had came to me just to get some drawings to work off of and then have to draw everything on the steel. They never dreamed I could give them perfect patterns until I offered. Of course I was the only one in the whole department that could give them anything at all without some serious research. I had been a sheet metal mechanic in a former life and square to round transitions were duck soup. PO'ed the house people, they wanted the overtime and the lowly contractor got it because he was the only one that could do the work on a rush job. I would have been just as happy spending my weekend fishing.

Hu

 

[Philbert]

3D printers start at $30,000 and dropping.

A number of tech schools have them and are always looking for student projects.

Philbert

 

[Real1shepherd]

3D printers start at $30,000 and dropping.

A number of tech schools have them and are always looking for student projects.

Philbert

Price is dropping then...that's a GOOD thing, because it will revive the NLA problem of most parts.

Kevin

 

[shootingarts]

3D printers start at $30,000 and dropping.

A number of tech schools have them and are always looking for student projects.

Philbert

The local vo-tech instructor is good to know if they are active. The instructor at my local vo-tech went to local industry on his own and raised the funds to buy a quarter million dollar NC lathe, telling them that was where things were headed and they would need people trained to run NC in the future. Pretty far-sighted old gentleman, that state of the art NC machine used punch cards!

The local vo-tech will sometimes make things that aren't practical to have made in a machine shop. When I was taking CAD classes at LSU I was offered a side project for someone that needed a drawing to convert to NC. When it was complete the doctor that was head of the engineering department told me he could get me a few hundred for the drawing. I told him I would rather have a letter of reference from him. Never did need the letter of reference he gladly agreed to but someone I met doing the research for the project led to a job. Fresh out of school I worked three weeks as a junior draftsman, two days as a journeyman draftsman, and moved up to mechanical designer! Started off well paid for the position and doubled that pay in a month's time. That is fast tracking in anybody's book. The side projects can be a very good deal for everybody concerned.

Hu

 

[shootingarts]

Kevin,

Any updates on the machine work?

I tried to buy some K series chain from Stihl already square filed to have an easy starting point and test chain. Black a tooth on the new chain and adjust the file until it hits all surfaces then put a hash mark there as a baseline. Unfortunately the distributer has no LK chain of any flavor, full comp, half skip, or full skip. I did get to look over some RSL square ground chain but since I really didn't want it I couldn't file on it or get it dirty playing with it.

The dealer knew I had very specifically requested RSLK and that is what he ordered from the distributor. The distributor substituted the RSL. Different chassis entirely and not a change I was willing to accept until I look at the offerings from Carlton and see what the race chain boys are using for a starting point. Obviously I'm not cutting racing chain but I do want to clear a lot of chips in a hurry, noodling I get long shavings. Have to see which way to go, may wind up with RSL but not before doing some homework.

Hu

 

[Real1shepherd]

Hu,
Haven't been back in...flat broke...working hard to finish a big job and get paid. Probably next week late on seeing what the machinist has done.

Somewhere along the line, Bailey's quit sending me Oregon skip-tooth chisel and starting sending WoodlandPro 43RCS, .404. I've used it exclusively the last five yrs or more. It seems to be the equal of the old Oregon pro/commercial chain...I can't fault it. They show suggested sharpening angles for their chain on the back of the box. They just happen to be exactly the angles I use on the G-107 for .404 chain.....so, I've been doin' something right all these yrs.

It's round chisel skip though...but after the first sharpening it's converted to square file..no problem.

Kevin

 

[shootingarts]

Kevin,

Thanks for the update! I have been there with the boom and bust deal, I think most have. Annoying to be broker than the ten commandments while knowing you have already earned all or most of a big paycheck.

I'm going to try to investigate differences in the design of the cutter itself before buying more chain. I have two loops of RSC which is the same as RSL except round ground. I could convert it easily enough but I want the RSC too. I think I am going to have to set up to spin my own chain, not going to be happy with putting a lot of work into chain that isn't the best it can be.

I am aware a missing cutter isn't the end of the world but I'm used to doing a bunch of things that each give a tiny gain to add all of them up for a pretty big improvement. With my circle track cars I might have done eight or ten things that each by themselves would not be a noticeable improvement. All of them together might make the car a tenth of a second a lap faster. That doesn't seem like much but multiply that tenth of a second by the laps ran and it could be huge, the difference between a fifth to tenth place finish on a short track and a small paycheck and a top three finish and a nice check. Working on the same theory with the saw, I'm doing my best to not give up a little here and a little there, I want the sum to be significant.

Hu

 

[Real1shepherd]

Hu,
For me, it's a function of $$$ with all the ground rocks around here waiting patiently to kill your chain and the 43RCS has proven in the woods, to be the equal of the Oregon pro chain I used to use. I can't fault it and believe me, I've tried. But then, I'm not fallin' ten hrs a day in the woods like I used to....so maybe this chain wouldn't hold up like the old Oregon pro chain....but I can't say that with any certainty.

Kevin

 

[Magic_Man]

Did this machine work ever happen ?

 

[Real1shepherd]

No...machinist and I have been friends for yrs....this nearly ended that, so I took all my stuff, ideas and pics home. The member who did the machine work with the pics did an exemplary job.

What I did do was buy a new File 'n Joint base which was exactly like that old one and that cured 50% of my problems. Where Granberg screwed up originally was the cheapness of the pot metal used in the thinner parts of the file holder itself. Mine is functional, but cobbled together. Granberg just figured you'd buy another...but then they dropped the unit all together in the 80's.

If I was still loggin', I would have bought a Silvey grinder and be done with it. There are units out there that are supposed to do square file chisel chain, but many of them look cheap. And the ones that aren't are over $700. More like a $1,000+ if you want a pro model.

Kevin

 

[Magic_Man]

No...machinist and I have been friends for yrs....this nearly ended that, so I took all my stuff, ideas and pics home. The member who did the machine work with the pics did an exemplary job.

What I did do was buy a new File 'n Joint base which was exactly like that old one and that cured 50% of my problems. Where Granberg screwed up originally was the cheapness of the pot metal used in the thinner parts of the file holder itself. Mine is functional, but cobbled together. Granberg just figured you'd buy another...but then they dropped the unit all together in the 80's.

If I was still loggin', I would have bought a Silvey grinder and be done with it. There are units out there that are supposed to do square file chisel chain, but many of them look cheap. And the ones that aren't are over $700. More like a $1,000+ if you want a pro model.

Kevin

Sorry to hear it didn't work out with the machinist. Freindships are far more valuable than a file jig.