had a chat with stihl rep

[zogger]

How do figure we should go about getting that to happen?

Everybody know what the problem is already.

How 'bout some solutions to the problem instead?

Vote with your wallet, don't buy ethanol degraded fuel

It's an election year, make sure your rep and his or her major opponent know that the US people don't need to be held hostage to the corn lobby and wall street futures speculators for junk science "environmental benefits". How much pollution is involved with trashing a small engine device and having to replace it or do major repairs, because of this crap fuel?

 

[blsnelling]

As stated by Bloodontheice, its old fuel plain and simple, use ethanol blends in small quantities and use it fast, problem solved.

The problem is old fuel, exacerbated by the alcohol content drawing in moisture. E10 does not kill saws. OLD E10 might. I don't like it in my fuel either, but the fuel is not the entire problem, it's the operator.

 

[Whitespider]

How do figure we should go about getting that to happen?
Everybody know what the problem is already.
How 'bout some solutions to the problem instead?

Good God man, the solutions are so simple…

1. First and foremost… STOP DRINKIN’ THE KOOL-AID!
2. Stop buying the stuff… They ain’t gonna’ make it if they can’t sell it. And I ain’t gonna’ listen to anyone tellin’ me that’s all they can get in their area, cause it just ain’t so. It may take a bit of work to find it, and it may not be convenient… but nobody said it was gonna’ be easy.
3. Stop voting for the politicians that support the government subsidized Ethanol program and hand out your tax dollars to it. Let your representatives in government know you won’t stand for any more of this nonsense.
4. Get the real facts. Educate yourself about Ethanol, about it’s chemical properties, about it’s efficiency, about it’s pollution factor (both producing it and using it), learn how much it’s actually costing us (subsidies, production, trickle down costs, impacts on the economy, etc.)… then scream loud and often whenever you can. Call the liars exactly what they are to their faces… LIARS!

Don’t you get it? The Ethanol program is a joke. You’re being hosed in the drive-through. You’re being ripped-off. The “Green” crowd, along with help from their friends in government, has pulled one of the biggest scams ever played. If someone was picking your pocket you wouldn’t stand still for it… yet you’re willing to bend over for this? C’mon, you’re being screwed man. Ethanol ain’t “green”, and it ain’t saved us one single barrel of oil. The whole program is geared to make a few people rich off tax dollars from the gullibility of the masses. Just wait until your box of corn flakes cost $50.oo a box… With the corn crop failing this year, and the Ethanol program sucking up what little there is, what do you suppose beef (or any food) will cost this winter after the costs of feed and fertilizer sky-rocket? Christ man, we are literally burning our food supply… it goes beyond madness.

The problem is old fuel, exacerbated by the alcohol content drawing in moisture. E10 does not kill saws. OLD E10 might. I don't like it in my fuel either, but the fuel is not the entire problem, it's the operator.

I’M CALLING BS AGAIN!
How the hell can the fuel aging cause E10 to become E20, or E30, or E40? How do you know it’s only 10% Ethanol when you buy it?
How do you know the fuel is fresh when you buy it? How do you know when it’s old?
Operator my achin’ butt! My mother doesn’t have a clue about tuning a small engine, or Ethanol, or gasoline for that matter… but she has to put fuel in the lawn mower to cut the grass. Most people don’t tune or fix their stuff; they take it to a shop and pay someone to do it… Then they stop and fill the gas can on the way home. And this includes a whole damn bunch of homeowner/property owner chainsaws. So those “operators” have to pay the price even higher yet for this idiotic Ethanol program? Are you saying it’s their fault because they chose to be a milk delivery man, or a clothing store owner, or a teacher, instead of choosing to be a mechanic… Just how selfish is that thinking?
You Know what? You’re right, “the fuel is not the entire problem”… Ethanol is the “entire” problem. But trying to put part of the blame on the “operator” just ain’t right…
BECAUSE THE “OPERATORS” ARE BEING SOLD A FAULTY PRODUCT WITH GOVERNMENT AIDING AND ABETTING THE CRIMINALS! Heck, the government is giving the criminals money so they can keep the scam alive… Wake up man.

 

[2dogs]

Dude you need to chill. It's the internet, there is room for more opinions than just yours.

You don't win a debate by the number of insults you scream out.

 

[axlr8]

it doesnt turn to 20% or 30% or more from sitting...it is still e10% but....new e10% is 90%gas,10% ethanol.....Now let that sit in a jar marked with volume for 2 months (60days) and see if the volume increases....It most likely has. and that "E10% is still E10%.....but the new volume it has gained....is H20! JEESH! ethanol is hydroscopic(absorbs water and moisture) Just like some oils. C'Mon.....I agree opinions are nice, but no BS...needs to be called! I am with BLSNELLING! I work at a Small Engine Shop....NINE times out of TEN, it is ETHANOL that attracts water, and then I get to tear it apart, add fresh fuel, and purge all water...Problem solved. store engines dry and use less than 30 day old fuel!

 

[Whitespider]

Uuuummmmm…. I didn’t think my post included any insults… or at least none intended for any member here. Still, I’ll apologize to any member who feels they’ve been insulted.

it doesnt turn to 20% or 30% or more from sitting... new e10% is 90%gas,10% ethanol.....Now let that sit in a jar marked with volume for 2 months (60days) and see if the volume increases....It most likely has… but the new volume it has gained....is H20! JEESH! ethanol is hydroscopic(absorbs water and moisture)… store engines dry and use less than 30 day old fuel!

That’s wrong man. When Ethanol absorbs water it increases very little in volume, it increases by weight because it holds the water molecules between the widely spaced Ethanol molecules. When Ethanol is totally saturated (has absorbed the maximum amount of water it can hold at a given temperature) it will only increase in volume by a mere 3 percent (approximately, varies slightly by temperature). A gallon of E10 contains 12.8 ounces (by volume) of Ethanol, but when fully saturated with water it becomes only 13.2 ounces (less than half an ounce-by-volume increase per gallon E10)… Water absorption can’t even make it into E11 (a gallon of E11 would contain 14 ounces-by-volume of Ethanol). Only if the fuel phase separates (the Ethanol drops out of the fuel and the water drops out of the Ethanol) and then the fuel warms enough to pull the Ethanol back into solution with the gasoline (leaving the water behind) is the Ethanol free to absorb more water from the atmosphere. Age is not the cause of phase separation, temperature is. Age can cause the deterioration of gasoline because of the oxygen in the Ethanol… but it can’t make E10 into E20, even accounting for the water absorption.

E20, E30, E40 happens because the fuel has phase separated in the storage tank at the pump (the fuel is already “old” at the pump)… and you then pump a slug of pure Ethanol into your small gas can. Or, depending on the level in the storage tank, pure gasoline is pumped from the phase separated storage tank leaving the Ethanol behind… then “new” warmer E10 is added to the tank, stirring it up and creating E15… and next time E20… and the next time E25… and the next time……….

By-the-way, the correct term is hygroscopic… a hydroscope is an optical device used for viewing objects under water.

 

[lone wolf]

Engine Operation and Failure Modes
Chainsaws use precision engineered, high performance 2-cycle engines revving at 12,000 to 14,000 rpm. The proper mixture of the correct 2-cycle engine oil and gasoline provides fuel to power the engine and carries essential lubrication to the rapidly moving parts. High speeds, friction, and combustion processes all generate heat that must be removed to avoid damaging the engine.
Cooling a chainsaw occurs in two ways. Cylinder fins increase surface area available for transferring heat as the fan forces outside air over the cylinder/fins to remove heat. Heat is also dissipated by the inflow of cool air and fuel. As the air and fuel enter the combustion chamber, it absorbs heat energy prior to combustion and exiting exhaust gases carry away heat as well.
Most damage to chainsaw cylinders and pistons is directly related to engine overheating due to either excessive heat generation and/or failure to remove heat produced during operation.
Lean Seizure — This common failure mode occurs when the oxygen-to-fuel mix ratio is too lean and leads to overheating. Several factors contribute to lean seizure — a lean fuel-to-air mix burns hotter, saws runs faster increasing friction heat, lower fuel flow provides less cooling and reduced lubrication.
Increased heat production, combined with reduced cooling, leads to piston/cylinder scoring and engine failure. (Typically, a lean seizure is evidenced by scarring damage on the exhaust side of the piston and cylinder where temperatures are the hottest.)
The term “lean” is also used to refer to too little oil in the gas mixture. A “lean” oil-to-gas mixture results in more friction heat due to inadequate lubrication of moving parts and can lead to rapid
damage to engine components.
Detonation or Pre-Ignition — Another heat related failure mode is detonation (sometimes called “pre-ignition”). Under normal operating conditions, the sparkplug ignites the fuel mix, initiating a controlled burn that moves through the combustion chamber. This “burn” produces a smooth power stroke to drive the piston down at the proper time.
When overheated, excessive combustion chamber temperature can ignite fuel independent from the spark plug. When this happens, the two “fires” rapidly burn toward one another and collide creating even more heat and disrupting engine timing. The stress on the engine’s moving parts is greatly multiplied and may cause catastrophic failure. (Detonation failure is usually evidenced by physical piston/ cylinder damage and scarring at a location other than the exhaust side.)
Detonation is also a function of the fuel’s octane level. Generally speaking, octane is the characteristic of a fuel to resist detonation. In automobiles, low octane fuel causes “knocking” (detonation) in the engine.
Since automobile engines operate at relatively low rpm, the knocking is of much less consequence than in high speed chainsaw engines. For most operators, the chainsaw’s high rpm and louder ambient noise level mask the occurrence of detonation until symptoms of failure become evident. Many factors may contribute to overheat situations, including dirty cylinder/fins, plugged cooling air intake, improperly vented fuel tank, improperly adjusted carburetor, too little oil in fuel, wrong type of oil in fuel, air in-leakage, or an overheated spark plug.
Now Add Ethanol
Modern chainsaws are designed to run on gasoline (E0), but manufacturers offer assurances that they will operate properly on E10. However, it’s no secret that mixing ethanol with gasoline alters the characteristics of the fuel and potentially contributes to 2-cycle engine failures. Older equipment may be at a significantly greater risk for damage.
Increased Oxygen — Ethanol’s higher oxygen content leans the fuel-to-air mix causing saws to run faster and hotter. The leaner fuel is less effective at lubricating, further increasing heat through friction. Ethanol is also a less effective cooling medium than gasoline. All of these factors make chainsaws run hotter on E10 than they do on E0 — yet properly adjusted modern saws should function properly without failure when using gasoline mixed with 10 percent ethanol.
Fuel Separation — When contaminated with .5 percent water (about four teaspoons per gallon) ethanol will separate from gasoline. This is called phase separation.
Phase separation is most likely to occur when first introducing E10 into a storage tank previously used for non-ethanol fuels. If not thoroughly cleaned and dried before filling with E10, water already in the tank may cause phase separation. Tests have shown that in fuel stored at 70 degrees at 70 percent humidity it will take more than 100 days before the ethanol will absorb enough water from the air to cause phase separation. However, repeated heating and cooling of storage containers, or exposing them to moisture, may increase risk of phase separation.
Ethanol acts as a solvent — When operating a chainsaw on E0, residue can build up in the fuel system. The introduction of the ethanol, which acts as a solvent, dissolves the residue and allows it to pass through the carburetor, plugging the jets and preventing the carburetor from properly mixing the fuel and air. This again leads to a lean air-to-fuel ratio that can cause a failure. It is important to thoroughly clean the fuel system, tank, fuel lines, and carburetor, before switching to the E10 fuel

 

[Tzed250]

Uuuummmmm…. I didn’t think my post included any insults… or at least none intended for any member here. Still, I’ll apologize to any member who feels they’ve been insulted.

You used the Lord's name in vain. Not cool.

 

[Whitespider]

So how does this junk burn the motor up exactly?

Ethanol creates a lot more heat than gasoline when it combusts.
Ethanol sinks less heat than gasoline as it travels through the crankcase and cylinder.
Ethanol carries less energy than gasoline (i.e. the engine must use more fuel-by-volume to make the same power, which in turn makes even more heat).
Excessive heat will cause detonation.
Ethanol dissolves and displaces oils and other lubricants (i.e. it removes the chemical bond between oil and steel allowing the water it carries to attack the metal when you shut-down the engine).
As the Ethanol content increases it causes an engine to run lean(er), amplifying the above problems.

10% Ethanol isn’t so bad… but 20%, or 30% is gonna’ fry an air-cooled two-cycle engine in short order. If the fuel in your saw phase separates and you pull in a slug of 70-80% Ethanol when you start it… man, you can’t shut it down fast enough. If your storage can phase separates you could easily pour E40 into your saw at some point. And don’t forget about the problems at the pump where it’s very possible to start out with E30 when you fill the gas can. Every time you run Ethanol blended fuel in a high RPM two-cycle engine (like a chainsaw) is like playing Russian Roulette with it… it’s just a matter of time. It ain’t that you’ve been lucky so far… it’s just that you ain’t been unlucky yet.

addendum; Ooopps, I see you removed your question and answered it instead while I was posting lone wolf.

You used the Lord's name in vain. Not cool.

I did not!

 

[lone wolf]

Ethanol creates a lot more heat than gasoline when it combusts.
Ethanol sinks less heat than gasoline as it travels through the crankcase and cylinder.
Ethanol carries less energy than gasoline (i.e. the engine must use more fuel-by-volume to make the same power, which in turn makes even more heat).
Excessive heat will cause detonation.
Ethanol dissolves and displaces oils and other lubricants (i.e. it removes the chemical bond between oil and steel allowing the water it carries to attack the metal when you shut-down the engine).
As the Ethanol content increases it causes an engine to run lean(er), amplifying the above problems.

10% Ethanol isn’t so bad… but 20%, or 30% is gonna’ fry an air-cooled two-cycle engine in short order. If the fuel in your saw phase separates and you pull in a slug of 70-80% Ethanol when you start it… man, you can’t shut it down fast enough. If your storage can phase separates you could easily pour E40 into your saw at some point. And don’t forget about the problems at the pump where it’s very possible to start out with E30 when you fill the gas can. Every time you run Ethanol blended fuel in a high RPM two-cycle engine (like a chainsaw) is like playing Russian Roulette with it… it’s just a matter of time. It ain’t that you’ve been lucky so far… it’s just that you ain’t been unlucky yet.

addendum; Ooopps, I see you removed your question and answered it instead while I was posting lone wolf.


I did not!

Thats ok I just want to figure out the best thing to do.

 

[blsnelling]

You're little soapbox rant has some major holes in it.

1. Alcohol is NOT the whole problem. FRESH E10 will NEVER cause running issues in an saw.

2. Many of us do NOT have the option of not buying it. That is ALL that's available around here.

Get over it already. Deal with it. Make a difference where you can.

 

[Tzed250]

I did not!

Good God man, the solutions are so simple…

1. First and foremost… STOP DRINKIN’ THE KOOL-AID!
2. Stop buying the stuff… They ain’t gonna’ make it if they can’t sell it. And I ain’t gonna’ listen to anyone tellin’ me that’s all they can get in their area, cause it just ain’t so. It may take a bit of work to find it, and it may not be convenient… but nobody said it was gonna’ be easy.
3. Stop voting for the politicians that support the government subsidized Ethanol program and hand out your tax dollars to it. Let your representatives in government know you won’t stand for any more of this nonsense.
4. Get the real facts. Educate yourself about Ethanol, about it’s chemical properties, about it’s efficiency, about it’s pollution factor (both producing it and using it), learn how much it’s actually costing us (subsidies, production, trickle down costs, impacts on the economy, etc.)… then scream loud and often whenever you can. Call the liars exactly what they are to their faces… LIARS!

Don’t you get it? The Ethanol program is a joke. You’re being hosed in the drive-through. You’re being ripped-off. The “Green” crowd, along with help from their friends in government, has pulled one of the biggest scams ever played. If someone was picking your pocket you wouldn’t stand still for it… yet you’re willing to bend over for this? C’mon, you’re being screwed man. Ethanol ain’t “green”, and it ain’t saved us one single barrel of oil. The whole program is geared to make a few people rich off tax dollars from the gullibility of the masses. Just wait until your box of corn flakes cost $50.oo a box… With the corn crop failing this year, and the Ethanol program sucking up what little there is, what do you suppose beef (or any food) will cost this winter after the costs of feed and fertilizer sky-rocket? Christ man, we are literally burning our food supply… it goes beyond madness.




I’M CALLING BS AGAIN!
How the hell can the fuel aging cause E10 to become E20, or E30, or E40? How do you know it’s only 10% Ethanol when you buy it?
How do you know the fuel is fresh when you buy it? How do you know when it’s old?
Operator my achin’ butt! My mother doesn’t have a clue about tuning a small engine, or Ethanol, or gasoline for that matter… but she has to put fuel in the lawn mower to cut the grass. Most people don’t tune or fix their stuff; they take it to a shop and pay someone to do it… Then they stop and fill the gas can on the way home. And this includes a whole damn bunch of homeowner/property owner chainsaws. So those “operators” have to pay the price even higher yet for this idiotic Ethanol program? Are you saying it’s their fault because they chose to be a milk delivery man, or a clothing store owner, or a teacher, instead of choosing to be a mechanic… Just how selfish is that thinking?
You Know what? You’re right, “the fuel is not the entire problem”… Ethanol is the “entire” problem. But trying to put part of the blame on the “operator” just ain’t right…
BECAUSE THE “OPERATORS” ARE BEING SOLD A FAULTY PRODUCT WITH GOVERNMENT AIDING AND ABETTING THE CRIMINALS! Heck, the government is giving the criminals money so they can keep the scam alive… Wake up man.

Twice, in the same post.

 

[Hedgerow]

Ethanol creates a lot more heat than gasoline when it combusts.
Ethanol sinks less heat than gasoline as it travels through the crankcase and cylinder.
Ethanol carries less energy than gasoline (i.e. the engine must use more fuel-by-volume to make the same power, which in turn makes even more heat).
Excessive heat will cause detonation.
Ethanol dissolves and displaces oils and other lubricants (i.e. it removes the chemical bond between oil and steel allowing the water it carries to attack the metal when you shut-down the engine).
As the Ethanol content increases it causes an engine to run lean(er), amplifying the above problems.

10% Ethanol isn’t so bad… but 20%, or 30% is gonna’ fry an air-cooled two-cycle engine in short order. If the fuel in your saw phase separates and you pull in a slug of 70-80% Ethanol when you start it… man, you can’t shut it down fast enough. If your storage can phase separates you could easily pour E40 into your saw at some point. And don’t forget about the problems at the pump where it’s very possible to start out with E30 when you fill the gas can. Every time you run Ethanol blended fuel in a high RPM two-cycle engine (like a chainsaw) is like playing Russian Roulette with it… it’s just a matter of time. It ain’t that you’ve been lucky so far… it’s just that you ain’t been unlucky yet.

addendum; Ooopps, I see you removed your question and answered it instead while I was posting lone wolf.


I did not!

E-85 pump!!! Here I come!!!
I'm puttin' that Stihl in the grave!!!
I hate eth...
But I hate that saw more...
:hell_boy:

 

[Whitespider]

FRESH E10 will NEVER cause running issues in an saw...
Make a difference where you can.

OK, I'll ask it again... how about an answer this time.
What constitutes FRESH Ethanol blended fuel?
How do you know you're actually getting FRESH fuel?
And, how do you know you're actually getting E10 and not E20?

I am trying to make a difference where I believe I can.

 

[mikefunaro]

While under optimal conditions E10 gas may not represent an immediate problem for two stroke power equipment, if you take several steps back and consider the average homeowner who does not have significant interest or care for their power equipment, the E10 fuel represents a flawed and incomplete series of decisions that have not been made with the average user in mind.

I think it's unreasonable for gas to only last 30 days, and most people don't want to idle out their equipment at the end of the year (or month, or 3 months, or whatever).

 

[StihlyinEly]

Whitespider, all your bolded text and caps and exclamation points constitute shouting in online forums. Maybe you already know that. Shouting upsets a lot of people in online forums, and every forum has its own personality as a community. Maybe you already know that, too.

Me, I'm used to being shouted at.

We are very lucky here in Minnesota to have non-oxygenated premium grade fuel available at the pump. Very lucky indeed. There are regions, as Brad has truthfully pointed out, where only oxygenated (ethanol) fuel can be had at the pump. In those places, it takes hard work to find non-oxy fuel sources.

As for freshness, one's only real hope of finding "fresh" ethanol fuel is by going to a station that does a lot of volume. The more fuel they go through, the more likely the fuel is to be fresh.

You are passionate about the ethanol lobby. I agree that the ethanol program is essentially a perverse subsidy, an agricultural jobs program, if you will. Perhaps you should run for office on an anti-ethanol platform. If you can get past the corn lobby and can get enough votes to get elected there in corn country, you might do some lasting good.

Or you could become a grassroots organizer and work from the bottom up. Most online forums, as you may know, are populated by people more interested in talking than doing. One of the great things about AS is that there are tons of doers here.

 

[cowroy]

If anyone wants to find a place to get 100% gas there is a website called pure-gas.org

 

[watsonr]

If anyone wants to find a place to get 100% gas there is a website called pure-gas.org

Yep, that's a good link to have.... to bad the closest place is over an hour away. Doesn't work for me when I need to fill-up every 4th day, I do however stop and fill the truck and all the cans I can carry when in that area.

Just waiting now for the price on E10 to skyrocket because of the drought!

 

[starsailor]

You used the Lord's name in vain. Not cool.

I'm sorry but this site is no place for any point of view on religion. Please don't expect anyone here to adhere to your views or religious values. There are other places for that.

 

[Roll Tide]

Yep, that's a good link to have.... to bad the closest place is over an hour away. Doesn't work for me when I need to fill-up every 4th day, I do however stop and fill the truck and all the cans I can carry when in that area.

Just waiting now for the price on E10 to skyrocket because of the drought!

Ive got 3 stations within 5 mins from me that have 100% gas