Help with rope choice ?

[Harmon]

Bevis sorry for the bum steer on Wesspur, when they say "will match competitors prices" perhaps the amazon mongolith is not included as a competitor. They have worked with me in the past and I never considered amazon as a place to buy decent rope with work ratings. Or anything really. At any rate that stable braid will work real good for what you seem to be up too.

EchoCharlie, as far as spliced eyes go, I don't think anyone feeds the entire rope through the eye. Maybe in the midwest. Yep, clevis are heavy and a guy might lose the pin. The answer is steel carabiners. Even if I don't have an eye on the end, if I am lowering more than a couple branches I am gonna tie a steelie on the end of the line because tying a running bowline thirty times makes as much sense as feeding 200' of line through the eye. That and you can still tie whatever you want in the end of a rope with a splice, your tail will just have an eye in it.

So when you say "bowline on a bight" is that the same thing as "running bowline"?

 

[EchoRomeoCharlie]

Bevis sorry for the bum steer on Wesspur, when they say "will match competitors prices" perhaps the amazon mongolith is not included as a competitor. They have worked with me in the past and I never considered amazon as a place to buy decent rope with work ratings. Or anything really. At any rate that stable braid will work real good for what you seem to be up too.

EchoCharlie, as far as spliced eyes go, I don't think anyone feeds the entire rope through the eye. Maybe in the midwest. Yep, clevis are heavy and a guy might lose the pin. The answer is steel carabiners. Even if I don't have an eye on the end, if I am lowering more than a couple branches I am gonna tie a steelie on the end of the line because tying a running bowline thirty times makes as much sense as feeding 200' of line through the eye. That and you can still tie whatever you want in the end of a rope with a splice, your tail will just have an eye in it.

So when you say "bowline on a bight" is that the same thing as "running bowline"?

I don't like side loading carabiners...even steel ones.

Rigging limbs I usually use a knot that I'm not even sure of the name to be honest. Taught to me by a old tree climber, basically you act like you're tying a running bow, but instead where you would tie the bow, you twist the rope twice, feed a bight of the working end through the loop, eat up the rest of the tail in a quick chain sinnet, then feed the tail through the last loop. Moderately faster than a running bow, but I can tie a bow in a second or two after doing it a thousand times. Not quite as fast as a biner, but again, I don't personally like side loading biners so I don't consider that an option for me. I know lots of people do it and it works for them.

Bowline on a bight is a midline bowline knot. This is the knot I tie at the truck/tractor. One could also tie an alpine butterfly or a farmers loop, but the BOAB is faster for me and I know for a fact they untie easily.

 

[CUCV]

I'm with you Echo, not a huge fan of side loading carabiners. The contract climbers I've been using lately are all about using them and I think I may grab a Notch Rapid Rig to alleviate this concern. The Arborist I learned from would tie hundreds of bowline a day and I'd untie hundreds a day without blinking an eye. I'm all about biners with loopies when the loads are right.

Stable braid has been my staple rope for rigging and tree pulling. I do almost all my tree pulling with 1/2" line and really like the control of using a 5:1 system as it gives you a good feel of the loads being applied. I've used some Sterling Atlas rope lately and it is also a great rope. I just ordered some 9/16 Notch Krazen as it has great stats. and comes in at a good price point, time will tell how I like it. I've only broken 1/2" Arborplex skidding logs when the truck had a running start. It's a great economy rope but doesn't have the stats of Stable braid. Sherrill Tree, Wesspur and Treestuff all run sales on Stable braid from time to time.

 

[bevis]

So now im needing a suggestion for throw line with a weighted bag. is 1/8 paracord good for this job ?

 

[ElevatorGuy]

So now im needing a suggestion for throw line with a weighted bag. is 1/8 paracord good for this job ?

Following.

 

[Philbert]

So now im needing a suggestion for throw line with a weighted bag. is 1/8 paracord good for this job ?

Most people want a light, stiff, slippery / 'slick' line that will not hang up on branches, in bark, in crotches, etc. Look at the special lines that are sold for this purpose.

Paracord is strong, but might be the opposite of what you would want.

Philbert

 

[Harmon]

Havent tried it but it might be too stretchy as a throw line.

 

[EchoRomeoCharlie]

Havent tried it but it might be too stretchy as a throw line.

Agree.

Paracord is stretchy, and you don't want a bunch of stretch in a throw ball line if the line gets stuck. It's bad enough when the ball comes back at you, add in a bunch of energy stored in the rope. On top of that, it's not a super tight braid and will pick pretty bad on bark. I've never tried it, but I do use paracord quite a bit for other things, and this is just my thoughts on it. I also think even the thin paracord is too thick for throw line.

I would highly suggest buying line that is specifically designed for throwline. It's not that expensive at all. I think weaver sells a throw line with a ball for like $25. Buy 2. Double bagging/Double lining can help in brushy trees, not to mention if you get one line stuck, you have another to get the job done with.

Two is one, one is none.

EDIT: A 180' length of Zing-It which is what I use and like is $26. Throw balls are whatever, get the cheaper branded ones. Wesspur has a kit with a cube, two balls, and line for $60. Not bad.

 

[bevis]

Interesting. The Samson 5/8 stable braid I bought on amazon from aardvark trading for $175 / 150' is really Baileys.
UPS shipping states Baileys in California. Who knows. Maybe aardvark trading sells on amazon and has it drop shipped from baileys .

 

[old CB]

Like EchoRomeo says--Zing-it is great product. You don't need a cube, though. My throwline lives in a plastic cat-litter bucket. I keep a throwbag on either end of my throwline.

 

[Ryan'smilling]

Watch that video. He's got more great stuff as well.

 

[old CB]

I don't get it with the fiddle block setups. Seems like a lot of gear, and then you need somebody on the end of it to pull while you run the saw.

I've been using a come-along to pull trees with forever. Simple, easy to use, dependable, one-person setup. In the rare circumstance where the come-along cable (wire-rope) is not long enough, you can add a short length of rope to your main line, attached with a friction hitch.

 

[sean donato]

I don't get it with the fiddle block setups. Seems like a lot of gear, and then you need somebody on the end of it to pull while you run the saw.

I've been using a come-along to pull trees with forever. Simple, easy to use, dependable, one-person setup. In the rare circumstance where the come-along cable (wire-rope) is not long enough, you can add a short length of rope to your main line, attached with a friction hitch.

I've come to like come a longs and the rope a longs for pulling trees over, well and the 12k winch if and when I can get it in position.

 

[Philbert]

I bought on amazon from aardvark trading for $175 / 150' is really Baileys.

There’s a lot of that on Amazon and eBay. Sometimes it is in the fine print. Sometimes not. Sometimes ’drop shipped’. Price can vary too.

Philbert

 

[bevis]

the Samson rope is really nice. I think I could have gotten away with just ordering 1/2 inch though. I measured the Samson rope a friend gave me. he gave me a 15 foot piece. It was blue and measured
5/8" so that's what I thought was 5/8. Nope, the Samson 5/8 measures about 3/4". oh well, I have 150' of big ass rope. if I order any more, I'll order 1/2 inch.

 

[Dave1960_Gorge]

That looks to be sold straight from Samson, so that's probably the best possible option from buying straight from Amazon. That's not a terrible price for 150' of 5/8" stable braid either. Might be worth a shot.

150 ft might be kind of short. Ideally, you want to tie it 2/3 of the way up the tree, and have a narrow angle between the winch ( or tractor) and the ground, say no more than 30 to 40 degrees. Otherwise you are actually directing a lot of force into the ground. So a 200 -250 rope would be better. I bring a 300 ft rope (5/8) Amsteel if I am going to rig a big tree for pulling; this gives you the option of being farther away and using redirects with pulleys for greater advantage or a straight pull to the drop zone.

Even if your gear is well above safe work load (1/10 breaking strength), the more wobbling the tree does on the stump the more likely it will break off the hinge prematurely and go with the weight— and if you are lucky split the difference with your lay and still miss the target you are trying to avoid.

 

[EchoRomeoCharlie]

150 ft might be kind of short. Ideally, you want to tie it 2/3 of the way up the tree, and have a narrow angle between the winch ( or tractor) and the ground, say no more than 30 to 40 degrees. Otherwise you are actually directing a lot of force into the ground. So a 200 -250 rope would be better. I bring a 300 ft rope (5/8) Amsteel if I am going to rig a big tree for pulling; this gives you the option of being farther away and using redirects with pulleys for greater advantage or a straight pull to the drop zone.

Even if your gear is well above safe work load (1/10 breaking strength), the more wobbling the tree does on the stump the more likely it will break off the hinge prematurely and go with the weight— and if you are lucky split the difference with your lay and still miss the target you are trying to avoid.

Longer rope isn't going to be a bad thing if one can afford it(cept the weight and time spent dealing with the extra rope), but I guess this is regional...around here(midwest), a 100ft tree is pretty rare. Most are in the 60-80 foot range. So even on a 100 footer, 70 foot up, using 140 foot long rope after knots on a straight pull is 28º angle at the pulling device...so...pretty solid and you'll be out of the fall zone by 20ish feet when you start. Longer wouldn't be bad, but for someone that's probably not going to be dumping 100+ footers, it would be plenty IMO.

Also my opinion, amateurs probably shouldn't be dealing with tree's that need to be pulled in the 100+ foot range...Getting a rope 70 feet up isn't easy in most trees without climbing or basal tying...which would need significantly more rope for sure.

 

[Dave1960_Gorge]

Longer rope isn't going to be a bad thing if one can afford it(cept the weight and time spent dealing with the extra rope), but I guess this is regional...around here(midwest), a 100ft tree is pretty rare. Most are in the 60-80 foot range. So even on a 100 footer, 70 foot up, using 140 foot long rope after knots on a straight pull is 28º angle at the pulling device...so...pretty solid and you'll be out of the fall zone by 20ish feet when you start. Longer wouldn't be bad, but for someone that's probably not going to be dumping 100+ footers, it would be plenty IMO.

Also my opinion, amateurs probably shouldn't be dealing with tree's that need to be pulled in the 100+ foot range...Getting a rope 70 feet up isn't easy in most trees without climbing or basal tying...which would need significantly more rope for sure.

Agree about amateurs . There is also the issue regarding side lean ( or side weight ) of the crown vs where you want the tree to go, and the nature of the wood itself. You can face a tree towards the lay, and pull it in the direction, but once the hinge breaks....

I learned the hard way on a dead pine about 3 1/2 ft in diameter. I faced it towards the lay, and put a rope in it about 30 degrees on the far side of the lay. I figured that would work to counteract a lean going the other way, plus it had no crown and was only 70 ft tall. It had a lean about 60 degrees to the other side of the lay, but not a really heavy lean and I had shortened it to a 70 ft “stub” (spent a day up there limbing and chunking the big beetle killed ponderosa).

I figured I could fell it 90 degrees off its lean. Nope.

The stub started to go correctly, just with wedges—-my partner running a winch couldn’t catch up taking slack from the rope; I had a redirect through a pulley because of where I could park.

The hinge broke and then it fell with the weight —- falling about halfway between where gravity wanted it ( on a driveway) and the far side of a road, where it was “supposed” to go. I could see it change course in mid air—- oh no!

It hit diagonally across the road and dented the asphalt the whole way.

I had failed to balance the brittleness of the wood with the lean and weight; even though I increased the amount of holding wood, it was not enough. All the rope did was start it going when it was still tight; could have done that with wedges alone (probably did!).

Unless you have your rope tied to a hot rod 600 hp F-350 with nobbies, and you floor it, I kinda doubt it is possible to redirect a big piece of wood when it is falling the wrong way.

I actually helped a logger try and do this in the case of a big pine with a split in the butt; I hung his wire rope high in the tree, and he made an undersized face and just touched the back cut—— we missed a house, but it still fell way off. Dozers don’t go that fast...

In the case of my stub, the solution would have been to rope it 180 degrees from the lean and then cut it like I did.

Taught me not to trust hinges in cottonwood or dead pine unless the trees are absolutely vertical.

 

[Oldtoolsnewproblems]

I'm no pro, but a bowline cuts your rope breaking strength in half. It's definitely the easiest knot to untie after heavy loading and I use it for 95% of my knots anyways. Double figure 8 has a much lower penalty, I think it's 80%, but you should do your own research if you're doing something dangerous

 

[EchoRomeoCharlie]

I'm no pro, but a bowline cuts your rope breaking strength in half. It's definitely the easiest knot to untie after heavy loading and I use it for 95% of my knots anyways. Double figure 8 has a much lower penalty, I think it's 80%, but you should do your own research if you're doing something dangerous

Bowline is 70-75% of full line strength. Figure 8 loop is 75-80%. ( https://rescueresponse.com/much-strength-rope-loose-tie-knot/ )

Figure 8 is definitely better strength if tied and dressed perfectly, however tying a running figure 8 follow through is significantly slower for a 5-10% strength increase. If 10% difference is going to make or break your system, you need bigger rope in the first place.