How I baby my 2 stoke motors.... 30-1 instead of 50-1
- Thread starter preventec47
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Tomos770
ArboristSite Guru
preventec47
ArboristSite Operative
Here is Quaker State's "specific for AIR COOLED" 2 stroke oil tech specs.
it is FB and FC but not FD. I dont think there is any technical spec that is designated
a hot or air cooled 2 stroke oil product. We are led to believe an FC oil is better than an FB oil and that a FD rated oil is better than a FC oil but only in the areas that they
test for. From what I can tell they do not do any of the testing in HOT air cooled motors so how can these ratings have anything to do with the temp of the engine
in a way we can think any oil is better than another in an air cooled motor ?
https://www.shell-livedocs.com/data/published/en-US/8398dbfe-e86c-439f-b212-db95fa644f15.pdf
it is FB and FC but not FD. I dont think there is any technical spec that is designated
a hot or air cooled 2 stroke oil product. We are led to believe an FC oil is better than an FB oil and that a FD rated oil is better than a FC oil but only in the areas that they
test for. From what I can tell they do not do any of the testing in HOT air cooled motors so how can these ratings have anything to do with the temp of the engine
in a way we can think any oil is better than another in an air cooled motor ?
https://www.shell-livedocs.com/data/published/en-US/8398dbfe-e86c-439f-b212-db95fa644f15.pdf
preventec47
ArboristSite Operative
Thank you for that info
Here I find what may be the tech spec I was looking for ie for hot air cooled motors
| TC | Current | Designed for various high-performance engines, typically between 200 and 500 cc, such as those on motorcycles and snowmobiles, and chain saws with high fuel-oil ratios - but not outboards. Two-cycle engine oils designed for API Classification TC address ring-sticking, pre-ignition and cylinder scuffing problems. |
In 40 years of repairing 2 cycle equipment I have never seen a motor fail from properly mixed (as per manufacturer specs) fuel. Dirty air filter, dirty fuel, water in fuel, DULL CHAIN, or anything that causes a lean condition. or overheat causes failure.
After many many hours a part may fail. All parts have a designated lifetime. If the unit is being properly maintained, it will last. You cannot compensate for bad maintenance with a richer mix.
This does not include a failure due to a defective (manufacturer) part. Nothing will compensate for that.
After many many hours a part may fail. All parts have a designated lifetime. If the unit is being properly maintained, it will last. You cannot compensate for bad maintenance with a richer mix.
This does not include a failure due to a defective (manufacturer) part. Nothing will compensate for that.
preventec47
ArboristSite Operative
FANTASTIC INFO. EVERYONE READ
excerpt : What does ATP-TC and TCW3 mean? Specifications for 2-stroke oils are developed from the design of the engine and its intended use (no surprise). Since this type engine has a wide variety of applications its no surprise that the specifications for the oils might vary also. For marine and PWC application there are 2 widely accepted standards for certifying 2-stroke engine oils. These are, by no means, not the only standards for 2-stroke engine oils. The European (ISO) and the Japanese (JASCO) standards have been developed, but these standards are not widely accepted in the country (yet). The standards most used in this country are the National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMATCW3) standard and the American Petroleum Institute (API API-TC) standard. Both of these standards address the oil ability to prevent wear, keep the engine clean and biodegradability. Since these standards were written for different types of 2-stroke engines it stands to reason these standards would be different. Hence, the oils developed from these standards would also be different. The NMMA TCW3 standard was designed by the various manufacturers of outboard motors (Mercury, OMC, Yamaha etc.). These manufacturers so not utilize power valves, limit their max rpms to about 6800 and have excessive cooking capacity. They also must be able to operate at lower rpms for long periods of time without oil fouling the spark plugs. Although it’s true the performance of this type engine has increased in the last several years, the peak engine temperatures are still relatively low. The use of synthetic base oil in TCW# formulations has extended the useful range of these oils; their detergent system (Ashless) is designed for lower operating conditions. This is one of the reasons Bombardier specifically prohibits the use of these oils in their Rotax engines. The API API-TC standard was developed for Air-cooled, high rpm, high output 2-stroke engines operating under severe load conditions. Although this standard is no longer reviewed and updated since 1993 b the API, it still is in effect today. This standard most accurately addresses the condition Rotax and 2-stroke racing motorcycles and snowmobiles operate under. Almost all these oils are formulated with synthetic or synthetic blend base oils and all use a low ash type detergent. If you walk into a store that handles a variety of 2-stroke oils, it is relatively easy to find TCW3 certified oil. The manufacturer proudly displays that certification on each container. API-TC certified oils, on the other hand, are very difficult to find. There are two main reasons for this. First, many small API-TC oil manufacturers can’t or won’t spend the money (about $75,000) for the testing and certification process. Second, most engines requiring API-TC oils are for racing applications (Motocrossers and Crosscountry motorcycles) and don’t offer warranties with their engines anyway. The owner/operators of these machines know what oils work and don’t work. They do not need the API-TC certification on the bottle to help them decide what oil to use. There are many really good API-TC type oils on the market that have never been certified as such. Bombardier/Rotax is the only manufacturer that APITC certified oils. The TCW3 market is about 10 times the size of the API-TC market. Outboard motor manufacturers require the use of TCW3 certified oils to maintain their warranty. With this great volume in oil sales at stake, it’s easy to see why TCW3 manufacturers can afford to certify their oils.
excerpt : What does ATP-TC and TCW3 mean? Specifications for 2-stroke oils are developed from the design of the engine and its intended use (no surprise). Since this type engine has a wide variety of applications its no surprise that the specifications for the oils might vary also. For marine and PWC application there are 2 widely accepted standards for certifying 2-stroke engine oils. These are, by no means, not the only standards for 2-stroke engine oils. The European (ISO) and the Japanese (JASCO) standards have been developed, but these standards are not widely accepted in the country (yet). The standards most used in this country are the National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMATCW3) standard and the American Petroleum Institute (API API-TC) standard. Both of these standards address the oil ability to prevent wear, keep the engine clean and biodegradability. Since these standards were written for different types of 2-stroke engines it stands to reason these standards would be different. Hence, the oils developed from these standards would also be different. The NMMA TCW3 standard was designed by the various manufacturers of outboard motors (Mercury, OMC, Yamaha etc.). These manufacturers so not utilize power valves, limit their max rpms to about 6800 and have excessive cooking capacity. They also must be able to operate at lower rpms for long periods of time without oil fouling the spark plugs. Although it’s true the performance of this type engine has increased in the last several years, the peak engine temperatures are still relatively low. The use of synthetic base oil in TCW# formulations has extended the useful range of these oils; their detergent system (Ashless) is designed for lower operating conditions. This is one of the reasons Bombardier specifically prohibits the use of these oils in their Rotax engines. The API API-TC standard was developed for Air-cooled, high rpm, high output 2-stroke engines operating under severe load conditions. Although this standard is no longer reviewed and updated since 1993 b the API, it still is in effect today. This standard most accurately addresses the condition Rotax and 2-stroke racing motorcycles and snowmobiles operate under. Almost all these oils are formulated with synthetic or synthetic blend base oils and all use a low ash type detergent. If you walk into a store that handles a variety of 2-stroke oils, it is relatively easy to find TCW3 certified oil. The manufacturer proudly displays that certification on each container. API-TC certified oils, on the other hand, are very difficult to find. There are two main reasons for this. First, many small API-TC oil manufacturers can’t or won’t spend the money (about $75,000) for the testing and certification process. Second, most engines requiring API-TC oils are for racing applications (Motocrossers and Crosscountry motorcycles) and don’t offer warranties with their engines anyway. The owner/operators of these machines know what oils work and don’t work. They do not need the API-TC certification on the bottle to help them decide what oil to use. There are many really good API-TC type oils on the market that have never been certified as such. Bombardier/Rotax is the only manufacturer that APITC certified oils. The TCW3 market is about 10 times the size of the API-TC market. Outboard motor manufacturers require the use of TCW3 certified oils to maintain their warranty. With this great volume in oil sales at stake, it’s easy to see why TCW3 manufacturers can afford to certify their oils.
Tomos770
ArboristSite Guru
Actually the motors for Jaso testing are air cooled.
Spooge is the result of poor tuning and or low load for the most part.
Flash point doesn't measure the temp at which the oil fully combustion. It's only listed on MSDS for storage and shipping purposes.
Darrell Coutts
ArboristSite Lurker
I entirely agree with you on the amsoil at 100/1 ratio. Have used it for years in Stihl chainsaws. Never a problem. Also have used it in a cheap Chinese 2stroke 230volt generator. These had a habit of getting very ratterly in the bearing department after very little use. After many hours of use I retired it and it was by then getting a little ratterly but still going strong. No blocked mufflers. Would I run any 2 stroke motor on anything other amsoil 100/1. No,absolutely not. And yes it has been tested down to ratios of 300/1 before they started having problems.
You say it was getting “rattrerly” after very little use, but still claim that you’d never run anything but amsoil at 100:1….
Pretty much supports the claims that it isn’t enough oil. If it had sat on the shelf more it would still be in great shape with that 100:1 still in the gas tank though
camel2019
ArboristSite Guru
Chinese 2 strokes such as in the generator need a heavy ratio.You say it was getting “rattrerly” after very little use, but still claim that you’d never run anything but amsoil at 100:1….
Pretty much supports the claims that it isn’t enough oil. If it had sat on the shelf more it would still be in great shape with that 100:1 still in the gas tank though
Darrell Coutts
ArboristSite Lurker
Read the post more carefully. My generator had had many hours of use before it had even started getting a little ratterly.You say it was getting “rattrerly” after very little use, but still claim that you’d never run anything but amsoil at 100:1….
Pretty much supports the claims that it isn’t enough oil. If it had sat on the shelf more it would still be in great shape with that 100:1 still in the gas tank though
camel2019
ArboristSite Guru
Is that acceptable do your saws do that too?
My point was that more oil in the gas may have prevented the bearings from going bad at all, yet you’re sold on your 100:1.
If you had 2 identical generators and ran one at 100:1 and ran the other at 32:1 with exactly the same load, exactly the same fuel, and for the exact same amount of time, and your 100:1 lasted as long or better than the other, I’d be all over believing you. But your statement as it sits just makes you a fan boy and your claim has zero merit
Darrell Coutts
ArboristSite Lurker
You have no idea what you are talking about. The quality of the oil is what counts and not the amount. There have been studies done which completely discredits your theory.
run five quarts of walmart brand oil in your car engine for a hour then run 1 quart of amsoil brand for a hour and report back your findings.
Sure thing
camel2019
ArboristSite Guru
Yeah “test” done by the “manufacturer” of the oil don’t think I’d trust it ever especially not in my vintage saws maybe one of them bicycle engine kits that the cylinders are like $15 for.
