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jcappe

ArboristSite Guru
Joined
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I came across this elm yesterday while cutting. The right section is right over the atv trail and is hanging literally by the bark and a few strands of wood. Both sections are touching the ground in each direction so I was thinking of cutting what I can reach of them ( I should be able to get most of the left side) and then going for the main stem? I didn't touch it yesterday because I was by myself but would like to get it down so it doesn't konk me or one of my friends on the head when we go under it? How would you go about it?

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I would personally drive my dozer up to it with the blade raised high. Put a little pressure on it then work under/behind the blade and cut most of the way through it.. then push it over.
 
Good idea, Can't believe I didn't think of that.....one problem...... I don't have a dozer. :poke: If you get some time this week would you mind running over and doing that for me? :) How have you been? Haven't seen much of you on here lately.
 
I just did one similar to that by tying into the main stem and pulling it towards the camera. I left a little strap at the back of the back cut so the tree didn't start to fall until I pulled on it with the skidsteer. Be sure to put the rope on before you start to cut on the tree. My tree was in an open area so the broken branches didn't get tangled in other trees but yours looks to be in a semi dense area so you might want to notch and back cut the broken branches to break when the tree falls. You could also tie onto the broken branches and pull them down one by one before dropping the stem.
 
If it's really hanging by that little then I would say throw a rope over it and pull it down.

For the other one... how high up is that? Is the main trunk pretty solid yet?

If so, after pulling the right one down, get a ladder and lean up again the tree from the opposite of the remaining one. Make sure the ladder is leaning on the tree higher than the section, and survey the area to ensure that there is no way the broken section can knock the ladder down after you cut it. Then go up the ladder, reaching around the tree (this is where a small/light saw helps a lot) and cut it down.

That's just my un-expert thought on the matter. I'm sure some safety guys will come along and point out where I went wrong.
 
It's quicker to point out where you went right.......Nowhere!

If you don't have anything useful to say then leave the thread. Personal insults aren't necessary.

So you don't think it would be right to pull the right half down if it's only hanging by a little bark? Just what should he do then Mr. Expert?

Also, it appears to me that the left half is only about 6-7' off the ground but I know pics can be misleading (that is why I asked). Are you saying that it would be unsafe to use a ladder properly positioned on the opposite side of the tree to cut the left half down? Once again, what would you propose Mr. Expert?
 
When the piece is cut loose......and your ladder is on the opposite side of the tree........Just what direction do you imagine the butt of the limb is going to move?

It is going to move towards the tree......likely going past the tree .....and into the ladder!

Bad advice is worth less than no advice good buddy.

Hmmm... you must have reading problems....

"survey the area to ensure that there is no way the broken section can knock the ladder down after you cut it"

Read that very slowly... repeat, read it very slowly until you understand what it means... repeat again for good measure. ;)

Also, you still haven't advised as to how you would do it. Rather than just making a blanket statement that my suggestion was 100% wrong, why don't you admit that I was at least partially right. Or do you have a problem with pulling the right section down with a rope as well? Please, point out the wrong in that as well. I'm dying to hear this "good advice" you have.

ETA, and until we get a better understand of just how high this is I don't think you can accurately make a statement that the butt WILL go towards the tree. Sure it could in some instances, but not always. That is why I asked how high it was.
 
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It's tough to say what is safer without being there. What I would try to do is rope it and pull with my utility tractor, but not everyone has one of those. With that being said, I'll tell you about a red maple I just did.

I started form the treetop that was touching the ground by carefully cutting away all the smaller leafy branches and worked my way up the wood toward the trunk. When I got to the point that it was just the main vertical trunk and the broken part leaning toward the ground at about a 30° angle, I tested the strength of the remaining wood in the break by roping it and giving it a few good yanks--it wasn't going anywhere. Finally, I notched the main trunk and put a small back cut (lots of holding wood) in it before pulling it over with the tractor. At that point I probably could have pulled it over by hand, but I used the tractor because it was there.
 
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I can access the area with an atv and possibly the small tractor and loader (32hp) Don't mean to start an argument. I've just never had to cut one like this and was looking for advice on the safest way. I'll have to look at it closer but the left branch was well over my head by probably 4 or 5 foot so it would be approx. 10-12 ft high. I think the main stem is pretty strong yet. Could I do something similiar to Eric and cut a notch out of the opposite side and push it with the loader after making a shallow cut on the back side? I think I will try and get rid of the right branch before trying to do anything with them main stem or left side.
 
Hmmm... you must have reading problems....

"survey the area to ensure that there is no way the broken section can knock the ladder down after you cut it"

Read that very slowly... repeat, read it very slowly until you understand what it means... repeat again for good measure. ;)

Also, you still haven't advised as to how you would do it. Rather than just making a blanket statement that my suggestion was 100% wrong, why don't you admit that I was at least partially right. Or do you have a problem with pulling the right section down with a rope as well? Please, point out the wrong in that as well. I'm dying to hear this "good advice" you have.

ETA, and until we get a better understand of just how high this is I don't think you can accurately make a statement that the butt WILL go towards the tree. Sure it could in some instances, but not always. That is why I asked how high it was.

It's really pretty simple......DO NOT CUT FROM A LADDER.

You can "survey" until the cows come home, and you still won't know that the ladder isn't going to get knocked out from under you.

Oh....the butt WILL go toward the tree when it's cut free.

It's doubtful that the upper section can be pulled free with only a rope.

On the bright side tho.....It's not too difficult. Spike up, (or even use the ladder if you wish). Get tied in safely to the stem. Remove ladder. Cut broken tops free. Fell the pole.

That's just my expert thoughts on the matter.....I'm sure some countryboy will come in here and try to get a fella killed w/ some git'r dun tactics...

PS....I'm a deer guttin, fish filet'n, wood cuttin, red necked country boy too, but cutting from a ladder you just don't do...Go read in injuries and fatalities to see why.

PPS.....My neck is only figuratively red....my long hair keeps if from the sunburn.
 
I can access the area with an atv and possibly the small tractor and loader (32hp) Don't mean to start an argument. I've just never had to cut one like this and was looking for advice on the safest way. I'll have to look at it closer but the left branch was well over my head by probably 4 or 5 foot so it would be approx. 10-12 ft high. I think the main stem is pretty strong yet. Could I do something similiar to Eric and cut a notch out of the opposite side and push it with the loader after making a shallow cut on the back side? I think I will try and get rid of the right branch before trying to do anything with them main stem or left side.

That's one reason why I cut the leaning branch on my maple first (essentially I shortened it). I wanted to increase predictability of what will happen if/when I notched the trunk and pulled it over.
 
It's really pretty simple......DO NOT CUT FROM A LADDER.

You can "survey" until the cows come home, and you still won't know that the ladder isn't going to get knocked out from under you.
True enough, there in no way to know with 100% certainty what it's going to do. You take a risk any time you go into the wood. How do you know that a tree isn't going to fall on you the instant you get out of your truck?

You look the situation over and minimize risk wherever you can. There are lots of cases where cutting from a ladder is acceptable and just as safe as spiking up and climbing. You have to know your capabilities and your limits.

But that point is moot now because the op said its 4-5 feet overhead; even I won't recommend cutting from a ladder at that height.

Oh....the butt WILL go toward the tree when it's cut free.

You can say with 100% certainty that the butt will go towards the tree? Good to see that you have all the answers... for all of us that are living in the real world, you just have to make judgement calls and try to minimize risk where you can. For those with all the answers, well, you already have all the answers, you know exactly what the tree is going to do so you know exactly how to cut it. So for you, why don't you tell use exactly how each piece of that tree is going to fall if he cuts it a certain way?

It's doubtful that the upper section can be pulled free with only a rope.
If it's only hanging by a bit of bark and a few strands of wood then it can. I've seen it done many times and many members here have done so (and even posted about it) previously.

On the bright side tho.....It's not too difficult. Spike up, (or even use the ladder if you wish). Get tied in safely to the stem. Remove ladder. Cut broken tops free. Fell the pole.

Not everybody has spikes and climbing gear. And for an untrained climber, it would probably be more dangerous than cutting on a ladder (if the branch was as low as it looked in the picture).

That's just my expert thoughts on the matter.....I'm sure some countryboy will come in here and try to get a fella killed w/ some git'r dun tactics...

So now you're trying to insult me with my title?

Man it sure seems that over the last week everybody here has turned to nothing but insults. I used to like this place, but now...
 
Yeah, you'll have to excuse TreeCo. He's a bitter, crusty old fart that would rather criticize and belittle people than help them with his considerable and respectable knowledge. He's the kind of guy that people are always happy to see leave the party early.
 
You look the situation over and minimize risk wherever you can. There are lots of cases where cutting from a ladder is acceptable and just as safe as spiking up and climbing.

Just plain wrong....But there are RARE cases where cutting from a ladder is acceptable. This isn't one of them.

But that point is moot now because the op said its 4-5 feet overhead; even I won't recommend cutting from a ladder at that height.

You use the ladder or spikes to get above the low one....then cut it.

You can say with 100% certainty that the butt will go towards the tree? Good to see that you have all the answers... for all of us that are living in the real world, you just have to make judgement calls and try to minimize risk where you can. For those with all the answers, well, you already have all the answers, you know exactly what the tree is going to do so you know exactly how to cut it. So for you, why don't you tell use exactly how each piece of that tree is going to fall if he cuts it a certain way?

If I were there to watch, I'd be happy to tell you what each piece was going to do as it's cut. But the issue here isn't knowing with certainty where it will go....It's about knowing with certainty that it won't get the cutter, and from a ladder you just can't know that with certainty. SO YOU DON'T CUT FROM A LADDER.

If it's only hanging by a bit of bark and a few strands of wood then it can. I've seen it done many times and many members here have done so (and even posted about it) previously.

OK. Great. So go try. I've spent enough time trying to rip stuff lots smaller than that. Sometimes it works. Lots of times it's not worth the effort and the wear and tear on ropes and gear. Sometimes you're introduced to danger that was never expected due to the force you're applying.


Not everybody has spikes and climbing gear. And for an untrained climber, it would probably be more dangerous than cutting on a ladder (if the branch was as low as it looked in the picture).

Hmmm....so if you don't have the knowledge and gear to do it safely.....hmmmm.....well then screw safety, get the ladder. Or maybe find someone who has the knowledge and gear to ground it safely.

So now you're trying to insult me with my title?

Man it sure seems that over the last week everybody here has turned to nothing but insults. I used to like this place, but now...

Naw....I was trying to insult you for advising a guy to put himself in a dangerous spot. If that makes you not like this place....well, I'll get over it.
 
Hmmm....so if you don't have the knowledge and gear to do it safely.....hmmmm.....well then screw safety, get the ladder. Or maybe find someone who has the knowledge and gear to ground it safely.


Naw....I was trying to insult you for advising a guy to put himself in a dangerous spot. If that makes you not like this place....well, I'll get over it.

I don't think you're getting what I'm saying here.

"Safety" is a relative term. You're never "safe". Everything has varying degrees of risk. Each person must evaluate the level of risk that they're assuming when doing things like this.

In this person's case they've evaluated that there is a certain risk that the tree could fall on them while riding underneath it (remember, the tree crosses a trail). They've decided that the risk to themselves for cutting this tree down is worth mitigating the repetitive exposure to the risk of riding under the tree.

In this person's case, they may not be able to afford to hire a climber to take the tree down properly. People do things like this everyday and rarely do you hear of injuries. As a matter of fact, I'll bet that you think ladders are so dangerous because you only hear of the bad happenings. Whereas, you think climbing is so much safer because you're exposed to a lot of successful climbing stories if you're in the tree industry. That is what the professionals use.

Now I know what you're thinking, "The professionals climb because it's the only safe way to do it". You're wrong, the professionals climb because there is "less" risk by climbing, but it's not completely safe. The professionals can afford to outfit themselves with climbing gear and do the training because they will use it every day and it will easily pay for itself, especially because there are some jobs that ladders really are dangerous on. For somebody that doesn't cut trees for a living the climbing isn't economical. So when possibly, using a ladder with some common sense is a slightly more risky alternative. Is it completely safe? No. Is it extremely dangerous? Not if you use some common sense. In the event that your common sense tells you that using a ladder IS dangerous then hire a climber or leave it alone.

The reason ladders have a bad name while cutting is because people don't use common sense all the time. Cutting a branch off 20' up a tree certainly has a LOT more risk than 6' up a tree. The size of the branch also plays into the risk; as well as the shape of the branch, horizontal/vertical etc. In this case, if the tree-branch were 6-7' off the ground as I thought the picture looked, it isn't "loaded" in any weird way, and it's a good straight branch it should be a straight drop to the ground after cutting. It's not going to spring back past the tree. Now, being as it's 10-12' above the ground it very likely could drop in a way as to do that. There is more assumed risk cutting from a ladder at that height. (hence why I said I wouldn't recommend it at that height).

So going back to the risk thing (still assuming the branch was low); the cutter, in this case has to evaluate the level of risk that the butt will kick back as he has no other option to remove the other risk of riding under the tree. It's all a balancing act.

Is the repetitive risk of riding under the tree > the expense of hiring a climber to remove it? If so, hire a climber. If not proceed to the next.

Is the repetitive risk of riding under the tree > the risk of cutting it down by himself? If so, then cut it down.

Wasn't that simple?

BTW, if he really thought the risk was great enough that he needed to hire a climber then he wouldn't be here asking about it.

So we go back to cutting it down himself. How would you do it without heavy equipment (dozer) and without climbing gear (we'll assuming that he doesn't have any).

BTW, on pulling tops out like that, yeah, they take a lot more force than expected to pull them out but if it's really only hanging by a little bark like he said it should come down pretty easy. I've I doubt a 4 wheeler would do it just because it's not heavy enough to stay on the ground with a cable pulling up on it at an angle like that, but the op's tractor he mentioned should do quite well at it.

My uncle cuts wood for a 2nd job (has his own sawmill) and I've cut plenty of wood in my day as well. I can tell you that a top like that will come out easy as pie if he has the right equipment and knows how to pull it. I've seen it done in person hundreds of times and a lot of people no here could say the same thing.
 
What have we become?

Just because we are old.. and SOMETIMES crusty...

AND... since we try to maintain SAFETY (so we can keep doing this profession more than ONCE)....

I offer the following compromise for "safe" ladder use:

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Now... What's so wrong with cutting widow-makers from a ladder? Hmmmm?
 
On a more serious note:

Countryboy - The original poster stated that both sections are touching the ground. If that is the case, the the simple physics of how wood reacts dictates that as they are cut free from the stem, the "brush" at the tips will resist being pushed away from the stem (it would be like folding a spring backwards). They WILL push back toward the stem. It's a matter of how much. Will it knock the ladder away? Maybe... Maybe not... Is there a high probability of Darwinism in action? Definitely!

Those of us that do this type work on a regular basis know how to recognize the risk you talk about. This is a classic "hey y'all watch this" moment. There is no reason to be on a ladder cutting this. There is nothing stable above the ladder that you could safely tie into (just in case the ladder fell).

There are a lot of ways this could be handled. A ladder is in no way an even remotely safe alternative.

Please consider your experience level as a "qualified instructor", the experience level of the "student", your ability to clearly communicate that experience and safely transfer your vast knowledge of the situation to the "student" prior to having him embark on a potentially life threatening exercise.

To use your thought process in a previous post:

See the tag line quote on my signature?

"Read that very slowly... repeat, read it very slowly until you understand what it means... repeat again for good measure."
 

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