mtfallsmikey
Addicted to ArboristSite
I got to run both 441/460 before I bought the 460....I just wanted a little more oomph to run a little bigger bar, glad I did.
Just Curious Why?
- Thread starter salmonhead
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Don't know that much about Dolmars. It could be on some models there are significant changes, quality levels, or feature differences (Chevy versus Buick?) that justify the cost difference.
But if you look at a STIHL 460 vs 440 (not 441), 660 vs. 650, 250 vs 230, etc., it appears to just be a larger piston & cylinder - same amount of alloy, just redistributed. Same amount of machining. That aside from the tremendous engineering, tooling, support, and marketing costs to create a smaller displacement, lower powered version, possibly to compete with a Husky model at a certain price point or power range.
If the larger models squeeze out the extra power via more sophisticated, more expensive tooling, carbs, alloys, coating, etc., that would make more sense. That might be true of the Dolmars you mention. Does not seem to be the case with the STIHL families above.
Philbert
I think most people would have the bigger cylinder if given a choice.
I think a good example of this is the 070/090. 070's are a lot less common than the 090's.
It's rarity of the 070 that's keeping me from converting mine into an 090.
I think a good example of this is the 070/090. 070's are a lot less common than the 090's.
It's rarity of the 070 that's keeping me from converting mine into an 090.
Brain fart.
Slamm
Addicted to ArboristSite
You buy a 441 because it is an OVERALL better saw. It is similiar in power/speed, but gets much, much better fuel mileage which means more wood on the ground in a given day or year.
The 441 has better air filtration, better fuel mileage and better anti-vibe, and it modds very nicely too.
That is why you buy a 441 over a 460.
Just the facts,
Sam
salmonhead
ArboristSite Lurker
makes sense Slamm,
That is what I was looking for.
That is what I was looking for.
Slamm
Addicted to ArboristSite
Sorry Brad I didn't read your post. You know I like the 441, LOL. I'm just tired of it getting a bad rap or little respect, just because it is "newer" (its not new really anymore). That doesn't make the 460 a bad saw, its a great saw, but its older technology.
You know this,
Sam
It does beg the question of when we will see a 461 with similar advantages and the larger bore. All things equal, I would want the higher power-to-weight ratio.
Philbert
That wasn't intended for you Slamm
Yes, it's a great saw that got started on the wrong foot for some reason. I never even got to run one until last year. No one that I knew had one, even at GTGs. Then Big Jake brought one to Bill Poors GTG last Jan and I was impressed. It was not the anemic saw everyone made it out to be. Then I had the opportunity to mod one for The WestSpartan. I was way more than impressed with the results. This saw in no way deserves any of the bad rap it's had over the last couple of years. It's truely a great saw.salmonhead
ArboristSite Lurker
Brad,
didnt mean to step on your toes there. I had read yours too last night. I should have included your name also in the response. I certainly respect and appreciate all your input. It's obvious you are very skilled around saws.
didnt mean to step on your toes there. I had read yours too last night. I should have included your name also in the response. I certainly respect and appreciate all your input. It's obvious you are very skilled around saws.
olyeller
ArboristSite Guru
Availability
Here's the reason I chose to buy a new 460 over a 441: The 460 is a highly regarded saw that will soon be taken off the market thanks to the pure-air eco-Nazis. The 441 will be around for many years to come. If I didn't like the 460, I knew I could sell it easily and then buy a 441 whenever I wanted to.
By the way, I like my 460 a lot and probably will never sell it.
Olyeller
Here's the reason I chose to buy a new 460 over a 441: The 460 is a highly regarded saw that will soon be taken off the market thanks to the pure-air eco-Nazis. The 441 will be around for many years to come. If I didn't like the 460, I knew I could sell it easily and then buy a 441 whenever I wanted to.
By the way, I like my 460 a lot and probably will never sell it.
Olyeller
nanuk
ArboristSite Guru
marketing gimmick!
the cost of manufacture is the same....
It's all marketing hype that gets the price points! Call it a RIP OFF!
Just buy the 6400, install the 7900 OEM top end, and sell the 6400 top end to recuperate some costs. You'd still be money ahead, I think.
the cost of manufacture is the same....
It's all marketing hype that gets the price points! Call it a RIP OFF!
Just buy the 6400, install the 7900 OEM top end, and sell the 6400 top end to recuperate some costs. You'd still be money ahead, I think.
tdi-rick
Addicted to ArboristSite
Fair enough.
Probably the same as car manufacturers have been doing forever, have a family of engines and charge substantially more for the higher displacement one yet most parts are interchangeable.
Just one more way of justifying a price point and maximising profit.
The Dolmar/Makita's I mentioned are identical except the P&C, but there is a definite difference in cylinders between the 6400 and it's larger capacity siblings (all Mahle BTW) in that the smaller capacity version uses more simply shaped open port transfers, less sophisticated finning, etc. than the 73 and 7900.
Having said that, the 6400 is exquisitely cast, The finish is superb.
Some more marketing info.
I asked a good friend who is a marketing guru why manufacturers of 'premium' products advertise cash backs (or other incentives) sometimes on an almost continuous basis rather than just drop the list price at various times.
The short answer was that it's all to do with perception.
If you drop the list price of a product, you diminish or cheapen the brand in the eyes of the average buyer.
If you maintain a 'premium' price but provide a cash back you maintain your products perceived position in its market yet provide a cash incentive to the buying public. They are getting a bargain on a premium product. If you drop the advertised price you are just getting a 'cheaper' product and you have diminished the perceived positioning of the brand in the market, something that may take years to re-establish, including the margins for the manufacturer and it's dealer network.
Philbert[/QUOTE]
'Fair enough' back at you!
Philbert
Philbert
tdi-rick
Addicted to ArboristSite
The 6400 cylinder would be much cheaper to design and cast compared to the 7900.
Whether it's the difference that we see at a retail level is another question.
biggenius29
Addicted to ArboristSite
Hey Brad, or anyone else who has a modded 441, how does a modded 441 do on the fuel? I know a ported 460 sucks alot of gas, but how does a modded 441 vs modded 460 compare to fuel consumtion?
I have a 460. I got it when the 441 was still new and not yet proven. Like the others said, the 441 will sip the fuel. I have yet to run one, but I like the AV on a 460. On that note, I also dont run my saw for 12 hours a day either. I am a firewood cutter and running my saws a hour at a time before I need to switch to a different saw. When I am cutting for a 8 hour day I will run my 346, 460 and 395. I like the power from my 460. BUT!!!, if I were to buy a saw NOW, I would really look into the 441 and try to find one that I could put some time on after all the talk it is getting.
But on a side note, I would also refuse to buy one because of the politics over it. It pisses me off that the Libs are makeing the saw manufacturers change the way they make saws, instead of letting the once free market deside.
I didnt like the 441 first time they came out..
What I enjoy about the GTG's..Wild Knight let me handle his,,and that changed my mind all around...I'm so used to the ms440 and first time I seen the 441 I thought that cant feel ballanced the way they look,,just a diffrent design,,till I got to hold one myself,,it was really suprising how comfortable it was,,and quick....I'll never say anything bad about em!!!
What I enjoy about the GTG's..Wild Knight let me handle his,,and that changed my mind all around...I'm so used to the ms440 and first time I seen the 441 I thought that cant feel ballanced the way they look,,just a diffrent design,,till I got to hold one myself,,it was really suprising how comfortable it was,,and quick....I'll never say anything bad about em!!!
Another way to look at it is
Bigger more powerful saw cutts faster getting you to the next job sooner.
If the operator could keep up with the saw. If I were cutting a cord of 16" long firewood from tree tops ( mostly 12" and under wood) I doubt I would get done a second sooner using a 660 against a 650. Both saws would be overkill and I would simply only cut as fast as I could go, not as fast as the saws will go. I believe my 044 would do that job nearly as fast with my ability to keep up with the chainsaw. The biggest differances , I would be safer using the 044 and would have a lot more energy left to cut another load of wood or whatever afterward. If it was all huge wood it would be differant. Right tool for the job works most efficient. Chainsaws are at risk to of accidents, being stolen , etc.. Sometimes I opt for 1 of my smaller less valuble saws when attempting to wedge trees over in difficult conditions . I lost my 1st 066 mag in a falling accident, would of been easiar loosing an 039 or something like that.
