If you have 1/2 coming out of your pump, bushing that to 3/4 wont gain you anything except maybe some loss in psi, and a little more oil capacity in your system.
Log splitter, the sequel
- Thread starter Patrick62
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jp hallman
ArboristSite Guru
Patrick62 said:I thought that having a large enough tank was enough cooler...
The tank is a cleaned out 20 gal air compressor tank. It contains something like 15 gallons of oil. The slightly cheesy part is that I created the suction filter with tin drilled with about 1000 1/16 holes (takes time) and then welded it up. It will filter out gravel, sticks, bowling balls, spark plugs, etc, But not much else.
I have a new verdict after messing with it today. I need a more powerful engine. I reset the points, and peaked it out as best as it gets. Runs well enough, but when I drive it the engine slows to about 1/2 speed, and the throttle is wide open. Ain't good.:bang:
Running the splitter is better, but it takes quite a bit of power to drive the ram as well. Even with the pressure turned down to keep it running. Ain't good either.
So, I do some searching and am settled on getting atleast a 12hp engine. Single cylinder should be sufficient (and cheaper, as these things go). If a 12 would actually produce 12 at sea level, then it should be able to do 8 up here. I have been told that it takes 8 to drive a 16GPM 2 stage, and I now am convinced of that. Thankfully I built the machine so that it is easy to swap other engines in there!
-Pat
I'd try to reduce restrictions/ gain flow before going to more HP. Oil cooler? The cooler the better. Suction screens are cheap enough. Keep going at it until you get it right. That's part of the fun. Try the flow increase before the bigger motor. Unless you can get a bigger motor for free!
DDM
Addicted to ArboristSite
I think you need a bigger engine. I have just what you need on ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...d=1,1&item=8032496553&sspagename=STRK:MESE:IT
You might need some biggers tires though.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...d=1,1&item=8032496553&sspagename=STRK:MESE:IT
You might need some biggers tires though.
DDM said:I think you need a bigger engine. I have just what you need on ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...d=1,1&item=8032496553&sspagename=STRK:MESE:IT
You might need some biggers tires though.
I think that would do it. Problem is how to mount it. I wonder if it could handle a 28gpm pump? -Pat
DDM
Addicted to ArboristSite
Just set it in that trailer you need for it!
SilentElk
ArboristSite Operative
The problem is only your motor. Flow resriction for 15 gpms is 109 psi loss per 100' of hose. Pressure loss on 3/4" per 100' of hose is 36 psi. You will gain minimal by upgrading to 3/4" although it may keep cooling down a bit. Although for your 14 gpm's I would absolutely not go less than 1/2".
Where you system breaks down is the fact that you have a 6 hp motor trying to drive a 14 gpm system. Assuming this is a 2 stage pump, when 2nd stage is engaged this flow will drop to 14/4= 3.5 gpms. Rule of thumb an hydraulic power requirements is simply: 1 hp =1 gal per minute @ 1500 psi.
Now let's drop your 6 hp engine into the equation and assume 2500 psi working pressure. 6 hp = X gal per minute @ 2500psi . This will give a flow of 3.75 gals per minute. Now this seems to be ok with your pump setup but it does not take into account such things as flow restriction and the fact you were suspecting you are getting less than your 6 hp. In short at best you have just enough HP to get the job done and absolutely none to spare if you get a difficult log to split. Being over powered by about 25% would be ideal. This would be about 7.5 hp. If yiou had an 8 hp egine all your problems would be solved minus potentially one of them.
There is a chance that your make shift strainer is causing turbulant flow and this can have a huge affect also on production. My dad bought a NEW $60 tractor this last spring and it had a design flaw, and hence factory recall, in the strainer/tank. His hydraulic flow basically improved 2 fold when they installed the baffal in his hydraulic tank.
Where you system breaks down is the fact that you have a 6 hp motor trying to drive a 14 gpm system. Assuming this is a 2 stage pump, when 2nd stage is engaged this flow will drop to 14/4= 3.5 gpms. Rule of thumb an hydraulic power requirements is simply: 1 hp =1 gal per minute @ 1500 psi.
Now let's drop your 6 hp engine into the equation and assume 2500 psi working pressure. 6 hp = X gal per minute @ 2500psi . This will give a flow of 3.75 gals per minute. Now this seems to be ok with your pump setup but it does not take into account such things as flow restriction and the fact you were suspecting you are getting less than your 6 hp. In short at best you have just enough HP to get the job done and absolutely none to spare if you get a difficult log to split. Being over powered by about 25% would be ideal. This would be about 7.5 hp. If yiou had an 8 hp egine all your problems would be solved minus potentially one of them.
There is a chance that your make shift strainer is causing turbulant flow and this can have a huge affect also on production. My dad bought a NEW $60 tractor this last spring and it had a design flaw, and hence factory recall, in the strainer/tank. His hydraulic flow basically improved 2 fold when they installed the baffal in his hydraulic tank.
You are brilliant!
Thank you! I might still change out the first hose to 3/4, but leave the ones that are running the cylinder, and motor. Maybe. Maybe not. So if it isn't losing power in the hose, then it has to be the engine!
In order to get a honest 8hp, I have to get atleast a 12hp engine. No problem, all I have to do is find the $$$ to do it with.
I used it today for a few and it worked fairly well. Didn't stall out, but it was close on a few. I still need to get current pix maybe in a few days...
-Pat
SilentElk said:
Thank you! I might still change out the first hose to 3/4, but leave the ones that are running the cylinder, and motor. Maybe. Maybe not. So if it isn't losing power in the hose, then it has to be the engine!
In order to get a honest 8hp, I have to get atleast a 12hp engine. No problem, all I have to do is find the $$$ to do it with.
I used it today for a few and it worked fairly well. Didn't stall out, but it was close on a few. I still need to get current pix maybe in a few days...
-Pat
Im pretty sure for a 2 stage pump you need 1/2 horse per 1 gpm, and thats at sea level. I have an 8 horse with 16gpm pump and no problems running at 3000 psi against the relief, motor hardly slows at all.
Crofter
Addicted to ArboristSite
The pressure losses in the hose doesn't consider the fitting losses. If you look at the inside diameter of the hose fitting ends you will see that they are only about 3/8".... On 3/4 hose they are about 1/2". Some brands are worse in this respect than others. I have a 12 hp motor with the 16 gal variable pump and 3/4 pressure hoses and 1" return. Filter is 1 1/4" 25 gal a minute. I think the 1/2 hose and fittings might be hurting you a bit.
jp hallman
ArboristSite Guru
Pat, If you're going to upgrade you might as well put a cab and air conditioning on the little jewel.
Patrick,
Any chance that the governor on your engine needs some tuning?
Hydraulic lines are based on the velocity of the oil flow. Suction lines should be 2-4 ft. per minute. Pressure and working lines around 15 ft./min.
The 1/2 inch lines are undersized, and it would be agreeable that the 3/4 inch are proper. (But that doesn't mean the can't work)
SilentElk: If you used the fluid power data book, 109 psi drop @ 15 GPM is for black iron pipe. Tubing (and hose) takes a multiplier. It's a good chance that Patrick's system pressure drop is double your number.
Joe
Any chance that the governor on your engine needs some tuning?
Hydraulic lines are based on the velocity of the oil flow. Suction lines should be 2-4 ft. per minute. Pressure and working lines around 15 ft./min.
The 1/2 inch lines are undersized, and it would be agreeable that the 3/4 inch are proper. (But that doesn't mean the can't work)
SilentElk: If you used the fluid power data book, 109 psi drop @ 15 GPM is for black iron pipe. Tubing (and hose) takes a multiplier. It's a good chance that Patrick's system pressure drop is double your number.
Joe
Quite a discussion I started!
Concerning the hose issue, this ram and valve and hoses was used with a 13.5 gpm pump with the 6.5 briggs. I recall that there was a small load taken moving the cylinder on that setup. However, it worked (slowly).
16 gpm pump is like 20% larger, maybe enough to cause more loss in the hoses. Here is another factoid! When the engine is running in neutral oil is flowing thru the first 1/2" hose and then all 3/4" stuff after that. There is no significant load in this position. Might be the elbo's....
I really think that upgrading the engine is the first item of business when I have the $$$ to do it. Then maybe a hose or two.
Power steering, AC, Power brakes will be added at that time.
It already has cruise....
Thanks guys,
-Hill
Concerning the hose issue, this ram and valve and hoses was used with a 13.5 gpm pump with the 6.5 briggs. I recall that there was a small load taken moving the cylinder on that setup. However, it worked (slowly).
16 gpm pump is like 20% larger, maybe enough to cause more loss in the hoses. Here is another factoid! When the engine is running in neutral oil is flowing thru the first 1/2" hose and then all 3/4" stuff after that. There is no significant load in this position. Might be the elbo's....
I really think that upgrading the engine is the first item of business when I have the $$$ to do it. Then maybe a hose or two.
Power steering, AC, Power brakes will be added at that time.
It already has cruise....
Thanks guys,
-Hill
SilentElk
ArboristSite Operative
I have rethought your hose issue. They are touch under sized for 14 or 16 gpms but they are just fine for your 2 stage motor when it gears down to about 4 gpms. The gear down is when the cylinder slows down speed as resistance from the log causes the pressure to exceed approx 700 psi.
I still think your engine is the only problem. Just get an eight hp or bigger and your problems will disappear.
I still think your engine is the only problem. Just get an eight hp or bigger and your problems will disappear.
TreeCo - Yep, it should have been ft/sec.
I agree with SilentElk on the flow issue. An engine upgrade will cure the problem.
I've made the same assumptions at times that if a valve has 1/2 inch ports, it takes 1/2 inch hose, etc.
When it comes to splitting hairs, sometimes it can make a difference. With log splitter applications, most of this can be overcome with Brute force and awkwardness.
Joe
I agree with SilentElk on the flow issue. An engine upgrade will cure the problem.
I've made the same assumptions at times that if a valve has 1/2 inch ports, it takes 1/2 inch hose, etc.
When it comes to splitting hairs, sometimes it can make a difference. With log splitter applications, most of this can be overcome with Brute force and awkwardness.
Joe
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