Low Impact Logging

[RatliffLogging]

I feel like the lone gun in the woods. Seems I am telling my clients your timber is worth 10 times what you will get to have it clear cut just using good forestry practices. The other day while asking a Guy what did they offer you he said $0.12 a bdft. I said hold up you have 11000bdft of veneer Walnut alone if you selectively cut it allowing it to mature over the next 20 years you would end up with 50-60% more timber just with the coming of size of smaller trees around that would be cut down in a clear cut. I told him the 11k bdft in walnut he has now would bring him $3.00 a bdft and up with a exporter I know and that would be also most more then the guys offered him for his 60acres worth of timber clear cut. Plus he would get the added land value of still having healthy timber....(home builders in our area pay big for this feature). I went as far as to offer him 60/40 in his favor not to let a company bring in huge machines and run down a beautiful woodlot. I guess it right now or nothing for some people. The fact that he would have seen 10-15 times the money in return didn't seem to effect his mind set. Most people don't understand low impact is still high production with a better eye for tomorrow and better marketing for today. Well I guess $40000 for a standing lot of timber is worth more then $200000 over the course of 2 years. plus being able to cut it again in 5-10 years and again 5-10 more years down the road. Does no one think of the future? Shoot me a line if we stand together on this issue.

 

[caryr]

 

[Ryan Willock]

Rat, I have been offering my services as a low impact select cut logger in the South West virginia area for two years and have had a resonable amount of low impact work as a result but by far and large most of the landowners I work with want to do diameter limit cuts or clear cuts. I don't handle clear cuts, I will preform "patch cuts'' which are very small clear cuts used to premote wildlife habitat or for a house or building lot but thats as close to a clear cut as I get. Most people want their money NOW and then complain about the looks and mess of a clear cut afterwards stating that they had NO IDEA what it would look like afterwards, which of course is horse sh!t as all they are interested in is the $$$.

 

[RatliffLogging]

Ryan,
Land owners kill me. They can't use a calculator. They really should start doing the math. Clear cutting never yields as much money or prime timber and a good management and lom impact logging. But it is hard to make your case when some guy is waving a check in front of them. when all you can do is tell them your buyers will pay 10 times as much with it on the landing ready to load. People are like kitchens use to be everything took time on the burner now you stick it in the nuke-a-wave, bing it's done.

 

[Ryan Willock]

Rat, thats about it. In my area with the execption of the veneer buyer you can forget starting a bidding war for your logs! You have to go to each mill find out what they'll pay and go to the highest paying one...... At least as long as he runs an honest stick! The veneer buyer in my area is a CROOK! He constantly find reasons to down grade your logs.

 

[John Ellison]

Ratliff, between posts here and on another forum, I see that you are going from horses to a mini skidder because of the damage that the horses were doing. I am wondering what kind of damage the horses did that you wont have with the mech. skidder. Please dont take this as an attack, I am just curious.

John

 

[Ryan Willock]

Horses exert more psi than a small rubber tired skidder or dozer.

 

[John Ellison]

Thats what they say on paper, but go and look where horses have taken out x amount of timber and then look at where a skidder or dozer has done the same. To me the difference is obvious. I am not saying that small skidders cant do a good low impact job, just that horses (or most especially mules can do a better one.

John

 

[RatliffLogging]

Horses walking over the same area over and over seem to cause a rutting which after a heavy rain becomes a real problem and requires allot of up keep to prevent. I use and long lined capstan winching system most times and a small tracked unit others. When I say small I mean 2000lbs unit which carries one log(20in dia) at a time from the cutting area out. As for low impact I try to spead the course of cutting to as few as trees as I can in one area to prevent riding over the same path twice.

 

[HORSELOGGER]

I read through this thread twice, just to make sure i was clear on it, but Ryan and Ratcliffe, it sounds like you guys are calling yourselves low impact yet still high grading the timber stands you get.Low impact forestry to me is far more than just the method used to extract a log. It starts with a worst first removal philosophy(in my opinion) along with a long range goal of what the timber should look like in the future, and how its going to be helped to get there by you intervening with a harvest.Telling a land owner they will do better to trickle out the high grade instead of take it all at once is still systematicaly removing the best trees. My area has a fair amount of guys running around with little skidders, loggin on shares, beatin the ever lovin snot out of the timbers they get into. Why is it okay for a logger to bring out 2 -6 buck a foot walnut and cherry, and leave the top logs lay in the timber? Should a logger only get a share of the big money logs and leave the low grade to rot, because he is too lazy or too " busy " to be bothered to find a suitable market for all of the logs that they throw down?( not calling either of you lazy, just speaking in general terms) I think using low impact as a marketing tool, yet not actually fully treating the timber that way can be mis leading...... And the part about the horse foot doing more damage than a tracked machine... Pu leeze

 

[RatliffLogging]

You should read my post on woodweb forestry forum from yesturday...Seems to state how my contracts read in regards to the removal of cull timber first then the mowing and grinding of undergrowth and then the ID of small saplings. This before the first grade log is taken. And yes you....either very blind or very offended that some of us also target and get clients from people who call horse logging low impact...I have a team I know they are far worse then the tracked unit I use allot of times.

 

[HORSELOGGER]

Sounds like you could use some teamster lessons.When you emphasize veneer and money you come across as a high grader in disguise. If you do in fact walk the talk, then good on you. I am fully aware that I do not have any personal knowledge of what you actualy do, and can easily have formed the wrong opinion, based only on what I read here on this forum . The other forum you mentioned I do not read, but will go there and read your post. I have absolutely no problem getting work, and never will have to compete with machene types. Not my niche. I believe the defensive , thin skinned one would be you.

 

[RatliffLogging]

Sorry for being defensive just thought you were labelling me and my work. I was a straight horse skidder for awhile but the horses started costing me the performance binders I was putting up. I also use the pricing on the veneer as a selling point as most people think that their timber is just wood. I feel that educating the seller as to what they could be getting verses what a person buying buy the stumpage would be paying in our area. People for the most part have no idea how much they are throwing away when it come to value by allowing a heavy harvest or clear cut here in KY.

 

[HORSELOGGER]

Its all good , brother. I figure its always tough to converese on the net, its tough to get a true sense of how a guy is saying something. No harm to you meant. I read the thread on the other forum, and the post just before your last one is what i too often see. Selective cut just means the logger "selects "what gives him the biggest jing in the pocket.I started in this work with a mind towards utilizing low grade, as that is the most abundant resource, and I do not have to fight anybody for it. I have a sawmill, drykiln and use the wood I pull out to make flooring and molding. In essence, I high grade the low grade.I like the idea of offering forest mowing of invasives and undesireables. Cant figure out how to put hydraulics on the team though.

 

[RatliffLogging]

I get $180 a cord for firewood so low grade is good to me. I got two mexicans who love work and do it cheap $6.00hr they can bust 6 cords a day between the two of them. It really helps to offset the costs incured in taking the cull wood and for mowing the brush.

 

[RatliffLogging]

Also for the hydraulics I got some minanite friends who use a power pack to run hydro on a forecart....

 

[HORSELOGGER]

A few years back I read there was a guy from Kentucky that was skiddin logs with a team, and sawing every thing up at the landing on a bandmill. I have tried to remember where I saw that article and have never found it again. Any idea who that was?

 

[RatliffLogging]

There is a guy out in West KY. He did just that I couldn't tell you if he is still around or not. I only work east of louisville out to the mountains. The guy I am thinking of had a mizer and a couple of teams. BIG TIMBER CO's moved in west KY and have really taken over so I would be shocked if he was still around. You know it's hard to compete with the kind of cash in hand offers them guys make owners.

 

[HORSELOGGER]

We just do no have that type of industry here. Is clear cutting that common by you? I have never seen that used as a management technique here, although some timbers I have looked at have been high graded so severly over the years that they might as well be cleared and start over.

 

[RatliffLogging]

With the export market so high on Hard Maple($0.80-$4.50bdft), Walnut($.80-$9.00), Hickory($0.35-$1.25), Red Oak($0.70-$2.75), White Oak($0.70-$2.75), Osage Orange($1.50-$2.90), Eastern Red Cedar($0.35-$1.75), Cherry($0.90-$6.00). Every company in the area is looking at today not tomorrow.....I don't understand allot of it but it is happening here big time. It's top dollar. I sell my grade logs for export when I can it puts smiles on the people I contract for faces. But when they but standing they short owners by paying for only for the first 12ft in every tree and paying about $0.30 on the highend......Plus it might not be a true clear cut but what they leave is not good and not usable for anything.