MS461R Chain Tension Issues

Wesspur
Rugged made
Advertise with us
shop deals on amazon
Arborist Forum

Help Support Arborist Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
MustangMike said:
Look at the pis of that chain, he is either cleaning the gullets, or doing something very wrong when sharpening.

I agree with him putting the new chain on to see what happens. Something is wrong here.
Click to expand...

Here is what has me concerned. I compare this sharpened chain to the brand new chain I have and I swear it looks the same now.
 
I have seen Stihl shops sell parts off of new saws because they didn't have a part in stock.

Then, if someone wanted to buy that saw, they would pop on a used part then sell the saw {including sprockets}....
 
Hell, I worked for a Husqvarna dealer that would sharpen used mower blades, then paint them, and try to sell them as new.

It is embarrassing to hand a customer a blade that is covered with wet black paint.... True story.....
 
HarleyT said:
Hell, I worked for a Husqvarna dealer that would sharpen used mower blades, then paint them, and try to sell them as new.

It is embarrassing to hand a customer a blade that is covered with wet black paint.... True story.....
Click to expand...
Thats a different kind of wrong there. I would call the owner out on that one!

Refurbished maybe but not new.
 
I bet a new chain will fix things. The trouble we have with modern saw designs is chains need to be right or you suffer from a host of problems. The chain speed and cutting rpm have near doubled in the last twenty years. Older low revving saws were much more forgiving of an out of spec chain and had the torque to keep pulling em through the wood. Today the game has changed and with such high chain speeds problems get amplified and saws won't tolerate a chain too far out of spec. I reccomend now is as good o time as ever for the op to better his filing skills and understand what angles do what and how they effect operation. The best guide on bar and chain maintenence in pdf form l have seen is 'The Carlton chain filing' PDF. It explains things in detail and gives a complete understanding of how chain works. l think you may need to ditch the guide, maybe try another style (husky or granberg) or read the filing guide and go freehand with knowledge obtained. You file is sitting to low in the stroke causing to much hook which translates to a rough grabby chain that performs awfull. You are getting very different results from left to right cutters. Don't toss that guide, but improve your understanding of chain geometry so you get better results. Philbert has a famous quote that goes something like this, 'understand what you want a cutter to look like when filed, then its just a matter of removing metal to get there'. But you need to know where your going before you can get there.
 
CR888 said:
I bet a new chain will fix things. The trouble we have with modern saw designs is chains need to be right or you suffer from a host of problems. The chain speed and cutting rpm have near doubled in the last twenty years. Older low revving saws were much more forgiving of an out of spec chain and had the torque to keep pulling em through the wood. Today the game has changed and with such high chain speeds problems get amplified and saws won't tolerate a chain too far out of spec. I reccomend now is as good o time as ever for the op to better his filing skills and understand what angles do what and how they effect operation. The best guide on bar and chain maintenence in pdf form l have seen is 'The Carlton chain filing' PDF. It explains things in detail and gives a complete understanding of how chain works. l think you may need to ditch the guide, maybe try another style (husky or granberg) or read the filing guide and go freehand with knowledge obtained. You file is sitting to low in the stroke causing to much hook which translates to a rough grabby chain that performs awfull. You are getting very different results from left to right cutters. Don't toss that guide, but improve your understanding of chain geometry so you get better results. Philbert has a famous quote that goes something like this, 'understand what you want a cutter to look like when filed, then its just a matter of removing metal to get there'. But you need to know where your going before you can get there.
Click to expand...
The granberg jig from what i have heard is perfect. Holds the file in perfect spot every time as it clamps to the bar. Or is that the timberline? Or is timberline a copy or something I totally made up? Or is timberline the grinder?

There is a timber tough grinder which is a copy of an oregon...and I have the rough neck copy from northern tool. Great deal for the money.
 
Timberlines are great but expensive, granberg style are cheap and give accurate precision. IMO guides don't make good filers, good filers make good filers! l was going to recomend the norther tool knockoff (oregon 511ax copy/clone), l have one and they really are great. But grinding too takes skill to get good results, you still need to know what your doing. l don't hand file chains like l used too, it is too much work at the end of the day to hand file 5-10+ loops. l carry multiple sharpened loops for whatever bar sizes and saws/polesaw l am running and swap them out as they dull and grind them at the end of the day on the grinder put them in sandwhich bags so they are ready to go next time. Download the 'Carlton filing pdf' links to it are found in the AS search engine. It will have the answers to pretty much any problems you run into. lt has pics/diagrams to show what things should look like and what things should not look like. Unfortunately practice and experience is the best teacher and it takes time.
 
CR888 said:
I bet a new chain will fix things. The trouble we have with modern saw designs is chains need to be right or you suffer from a host of problems. The chain speed and cutting rpm have near doubled in the last twenty years. Older low revving saws were much more forgiving of an out of spec chain and had the torque to keep pulling em through the wood. Today the game has changed and with such high chain speeds problems get amplified and saws won't tolerate a chain too far out of spec. I reccomend now is as good o time as ever for the op to better his filing skills and understand what angles do what and how they effect operation. The best guide on bar and chain maintenence in pdf form l have seen is 'The Carlton chain filing' PDF. It explains things in detail and gives a complete understanding of how chain works. l think you may need to ditch the guide, maybe try another style (husky or granberg) or read the filing guide and go freehand with knowledge obtained. You file is sitting to low in the stroke causing to much hook which translates to a rough grabby chain that performs awfull. You are getting very different results from left to right cutters. Don't toss that guide, but improve your understanding of chain geometry so you get better results. Philbert has a famous quote that goes something like this, 'understand what you want a cutter to look like when filed, then its just a matter of removing metal to get there'. But you need to know where your going before you can get there.
Click to expand...

Wow, thanks for this information. I guess I need to learn how to sharpen a chain.

But this is odd. Why haven't I experienced any of these issues on my little MS290 on sharpening properly, chain tension, bogging, etc? Is it simply because this MS461 is a Big Boy Saw, and is much more sensitive to a dull chain or an inexperienced person that doesn't really know how to sharpen chains ?
 
Glockem45 said:
Wow, thanks for this information. I guess I need to learn how to sharpen a chain.

But this is odd. Why haven't I experienced any of these issues on my little MS290 on sharpening properly, chain tension, bogging, etc? Is it simply because this MS461 is a Big Boy Saw, and is much more sensitive to a dull chain or an inexperienced person that doesn't really know how to sharpen chains ?
Click to expand...

Your new saw has at least 50% more power than your old saw. If your chain hangs the shock load is absorbed by bar and power head being pulled to each other. A 461 should generate a heck of a shock load. A similar powered McCulloch will shear the tensioner. Ron
 
I'm sure a machinist here will correct me if I am wrong - the gears on the pictured chain tensioner appear to be cut in a fashion to allow some back travel if a significant back load is encountered which would explain why your chain becomes loose but the tensioner still works. Many older saws have a simple straight thread screw and nut which has no relief from shock other than bending or shearing the screw or nut. Like others, I am betting the problem is in your chain which may be compounded some by your cutting techniques. If it is not your chain, then there is some physical impediment to snugging the bar tight - cover and case or studs don't match, or some part, excess oil, grit or wood chips is/are between the mating surfaces.

Ron
 
Ok ladies, I have been working my butt off tonight on prepping my saw for tomorrow's workout. I fully cleaned the saw and then I cleaned the bar, and then tackled the chain.

I read the manual CR888 told me to and I figured out several things with my chain and sharpener. First I used the Stihl 2-1 guide again. There are 30 degree marks on the square bars on the guide. I was ignoring this probably filing at say almost a 45-50 degree angle. Then to top that off, I was being a moron and sharpening with a 20 degree vertical angle. These were the pics from the other night that you guys said was one ugly sharpening job.

So tonight I spent a ton of slow sharpening time to ensure I lined up the 30 degree mark and made sure I was sharpening perfectly horizontal. This took me about 30 minutes of going slowly on each tooth and each side. I have never seen or felt my chain be this sharp before, and frankly I am nervous to be around it. Perhaps all these years I have been filing wrong.

Anyway, please ignore the fact that I wasted half this chain by reshaping the cutters tonight to get them back to 30 degrees. I also compared tonight's sharpening efforts to my new chain, and I believe they are identical in top plate angle and hook. I also manually checked each raker using a flat file. And they are all uniform hanging just below the file plane. I think this chain is ready to go, if not after you guys review the pics below, then I give up.
 
Picture showing the top of the Stihl 2-1 guide and showing the 30 degree Mark lined up perfectly with the tooth angle. Second square rail from the right shows the mark at the tooth.
image.jpg

Take notice of how all the teeth are now uniform in shape, size, and angle.
image.jpg

Notice the pretty teeth?
image.jpg
 

Similar threads

M
MS250C chain tension issue
Replies
0
Views
210
micmacman
M
revdocjim
Chain tension release?
Replies
11
Views
800
revdocjim
revdocjim
H
Chain Tensioner Question
2
Replies
23
Views
1K
alanbaker
A
asavageoak
Ms251c oil pump issue fixed, looking to convert the tensioner to bolts
Replies
0
Views
309
asavageoak
asavageoak
P
Chain locks up, smoke from clutch, chain and bar suddenly super-tight
2
Replies
33
Views
2K
Jasonrkba
Jasonrkba

Latest posts

Back
Top