My Dumb Question #1

[CuttySnark]

Hi, new here. But have been reading here often, as good info seems to be here more than elsewhere on various wood cutting topics

Anyways, this is something I keep wondering about every time I see a hot saw competition video

Why isn't there any electric powered hot saws?

And now that I'm starting to see some interesting battery-powered saws coming out from more respectable brands, it seems this question deserves more attention

Or have I just not spotted the electric hot saw when it happened? I've searched for that, so pretty sure it's not been happening

Why I would want to run such a saw? Max torque at zero RPM. No clutch=no clutch issues. Software driven chain braking - can enable the braking to react just as the bar leaves the cut & long before a guard hits your wrist. Programmable chain speed ramp-up/ramp-down. Consistency from cut to cut. Reliable starting/elimination of all mechanical failure points. Backpack battery allowing a better distribution of saw weight. Variable bar oiling with a BLDC oil pump. Greater flexibility in the ergonomics of how the throttle is placed & more reliable linkage from finger motion to chain speed using optical or hall effect position sensing of the throttle control

 

[Woodslasher]

I think it's for the same reason that most guys don't build top handle race saws, until you get a big powerful engine it's not worth trying to soup it up. Also, porting in it's simplest form is grinding on cylinders, mufflers, and carburetors. Hot rodding electronics is a whole 'nother ballgame.

 

[CuttySnark]

I think it's for the same reason that most guys don't build top handle race saws, until you get a big powerful engine it's not worth trying to soup it up. Also, porting in it's simplest form is grinding on cylinders, mufflers, and carburetors. Hot rodding electronics is a whole 'nother ballgame.

Being an entirely new ballgame can't be the definitive reason! It's a good reason for anyone who only knows gas power, and I'm not interested in convincing a proven tradition to adopt an electric platform

As for the basic requirement of starting out with a motor that performs, lets just assume I could theoritically show up with a Tesla motor & battery packs that only last just long enough to do one full run. But personally, I would prefer to build the motor from scratch and use an aftermarket motor controller with the features I like. The controllers are the more tricky part of the 'ballgame'. Lets just begin with this example: https://vesc-project.com/

But what about the organizers of a hotsaw competition? Lets say I've built something that follows as many of the rules as possible, demonstrating an effort to not cheat or take any shortcuts in safety. Can I compete with an electric hot saw? Or would it be against the rules?

 

[ValleyForge]

electric saws are a novelty….

 

[cookies]

Find a older 220v electric saw, soup that up

 

[CuttySnark]

electric saws are a novelty….

Assuming you mean battery powered saws, they have been a novelty, and up until very recently, just a consumer toy

I have a couple of corded electric saws, which for the bar size & work area limitations have done fairly well. I do have an issue with the cord getting tangled underfoot, so that is an additional work hazard to be careful with. Which is why I'm starting to look at battery options

I've recently been running a Hart 40 volt leaf vacuum, and now a weedeater with interchangeable tool heads. The leaf vac uses a brushed motor, so it's not very impressive for the runtime and amount of work I get with it. The weedeater is on an entirely different level. That uses a brushless motor, has amazing runtime & power. A 4 amp-hour battery can run up to an hour if I only use just enough throttle to get a decent cut. The throttle control is many times better than any gas powered weedeater, for going slow. For example, cutting grass at the bottom edge of a camping tent I use as a garden shed, without getting tangled in the tent lines. The Hart trimmer head does have one fatal flaw in that it draws in tall grass & winds it around the head until it jams. Walmart doesn't have enough experience in yard work to know better. I'll have to come up with something to stop that, maybe a better shield, or a line cutter. Still deciding how I want to fix that

But this year, I see a small battery saw that's comparing well to the gas saws in it's size range. I'm seeing battery saws from Stihl, Husqvarna, Milwaukee, DeWalt. Makita has a top handle version designed expressly for arborists. So the novelty might be starting to wear off now....

 

[CuttySnark]

Find a older 220v electric saw, soup that up

I think you're talking about something a sawmill would run, with a corded mains supply?

Doesn't hotsaw require having everything the saw needs, to be held by the operator?

Well, maybe not counting remote starters run by a 2nd crew member - aren't there battery powered remote starters? If so, then my idea has already been sitting out there on the competition stage, just not being put to work properly...

 

[ValleyForge]

Assuming you mean battery powered saws, they have been a novelty, and up until very recently, just a consumer toy

I have a couple of corded electric saws, which for the bar size & work area limitations have done fairly well. I do have an issue with the cord getting tangled underfoot, so that is an additional work hazard to be careful with. Which is why I'm starting to look at battery options

I've recently been running a Hart 40 volt leaf vacuum, and now a weedeater with interchangeable tool heads. The leaf vac uses a brushed motor, so it's not very impressive for the runtime and amount of work I get with it. The weedeater is on an entirely different level. That uses a brushless motor, has amazing runtime & power. A 4 amp-hour battery can run up to an hour if I only use just enough throttle to get a decent cut. The throttle control is many times better than any gas powered weedeater, for going slow. For example, cutting grass at the bottom edge of a camping tent I use as a garden shed, without getting tangled in the tent lines. The Hart trimmer head does have one fatal flaw in that it draws in tall grass & winds it around the head until it jams. Walmart doesn't have enough experience in yard work to know better. I'll have to come up with something to stop that, maybe a better shield, or a line cutter. Still deciding how I want to fix that

But this year, I see a small battery saw that's comparing well to the gas saws in it's size range. I'm seeing battery saws from Stihl, Husqvarna, Milwaukee, DeWalt. Makita has a top handle version designed expressly for arborists. So the novelty might be starting to wear off now....

Yes, the toy saws…

 

[cookies]

I think you're talking about something a sawmill would run, with a corded mains supply?

Doesn't hotsaw require having everything the saw needs, to be held by the operator?

Well, maybe not counting remote starters run by a 2nd crew member - aren't there battery powered remote starters? If so, then my idea has already been sitting out there on the competition stage, just not being put to work properly...

Plenty of guys run corded electric saws around their firewood piles, most have a in the air cord setup than hangs down and swivels around the work area. Sawmills run harvester bars i'm not sure what the sawyers at the mills run.

 

[CuttySnark]

Yes, the toy saws…

Well, what I'm posting here about isn't about bringing one of those toy saws to a hotsaw competition. But it does seem somewhat relevant that the marketplace is beginning to transition towards battery power. That's like comparing a Honda Civic to a top fuel dragster. You can't really compete in top fuel by using a daily driver as your yardstick

In the same manner, I'm only here to discuss using a BLDC motor with torque in the range of 150~500 ft-lbs, weighing under 200lbs with controller, but not counting a bar & chain

I guess it might make more sense to contact an event organizer & ask them about this topic

Plenty of guys run corded electric saws around their firewood piles, most have a in the air cord setup than hangs down and swivels around the work area. Sawmills run harvester bars i'm not sure what the sawyers at the mills run.

I would be one of those. In particular, I really love running my Worx JawSaw one handed, pushing it straight down into the ground over poles. You want fast work? Try one of these things out. It gets the job done fast enough that you need to be careful about tripping over piles of cut rounds. It doesn't need the pole to be up on a cutting block. Just that the ground should be flat enough to not have anything sticking up into the bars path. The JawSaw has a guard that keeps it off the ground. It sucks the pole up into place, then catches that on dogs. The bar then swings across the pole by pushing down on it. It only goes up to around 6", so it's for bucking up branches into kindling

I'll look into an 'air cord'. Maybe just run a line overhead & drop a cord down from the middle. I've run lights that way, to light the yard up

I've also rigged up a corded saw to run off of a inverter. Took that out into the woods. I had to downsize my saw because it pulled too many amps. Went from a 14" to a 9". The bigger saw was making the inverter shut down. If I remember right, that was a 3KW inverter

I'd guess a hotsaw rig will be more like 20-50KW. I'm certain it'll be something appropriate for a sport bike that can hit 150MPH, so that's where I would start looking for motor designs

Not that I'm actually planning on building such a saw right now. It's just something I keep wondering about. If I knew there was a chance that such a thing wouldn't be a waste of time & money because it wouldn't be allowed to compete, then that would be the end of that idea. But all I see so far is a lot of petrol heads who think I'm wasting my time doing something new that hasn't been done before

 

[ValleyForge]

Well, what I'm posting here about isn't about bringing one of those toy saws to a hotsaw competition. But it does seem somewhat relevant that the marketplace is beginning to transition towards battery power. That's like comparing a Honda Civic to a top fuel dragster. You can't really compete in top fuel by using a daily driver as your yardstick

In the same manner, I'm only here to discuss using a BLDC motor with torque in the range of 150~500 ft-lbs, weighing under 200lbs with controller, but not counting a bar & chain

I guess it might make more sense to contact an event organizer & ask them about this topic

I would be one of those. In particular, I really love running my Worx JawSaw one handed, pushing it straight down into the ground over poles. You want fast work? Try one of these things out. It gets the job done fast enough that you need to be careful about tripping over piles of cut rounds. It doesn't need the pole to be up on a cutting block. Just that the ground should be flat enough to not have anything sticking up into the bars path. The JawSaw has a guard that keeps it off the ground. It sucks the pole up into place, then catches that on dogs. The bar then swings across the pole by pushing down on it. It only goes up to around 6", so it's for bucking up branches into kindling

I'll look into an 'air cord'. Maybe just run a line overhead & drop a cord down from the middle. I've run lights that way, to light the yard up

I've also rigged up a corded saw to run off of a inverter. Took that out into the woods. I had to downsize my saw because it pulled too many amps. Went from a 14" to a 9". The bigger saw was making the inverter shut down. If I remember right, that was a 3KW inverter

I'd guess a hotsaw rig will be more like 20-50KW. I'm certain it'll be something appropriate for a sport bike that can hit 150MPH, so that's where I would start looking for motor designs

Not that I'm actually planning on building such a saw right now. It's just something I keep wondering about. If I knew there was a chance that such a thing wouldn't be a waste of time & money because it wouldn't be allowed to compete, then that would be the end of that idea. But all I see so far is a lot of petrol heads who think I'm wasting my time doing something new that hasn't been done before

I don’t see the users transitioning to battery power…I see homeowners entering the market driven by government regulations removing choice, like in California…

 

[CuttySnark]

I don’t see the users transitioning to battery power…I see homeowners entering the market driven by government regulations removing choice, like in California…

There's politics involved, I wont argue that!

But the marketplace is changing, and that is something I'm keeping an eye on

Personally, I don't value battery powered tools for their emissions reductions. What I like the most is how reliable they are. Other features take 2nd place, but are also worthwhile

Take hand drills for example. Scratch that, lets go with a battery powered reciprocating saw loaded with a 12" arborist blade. I've been doing that at a farm where I work. They got a DeWalt 20 volt reciprocating saw for use in the shop. I bought some arborist blades and brought them in. The field hands tried them out for tree pruning and they're totally stoked on that combo for heavier work. But most of their pruning can be done with a much lighter hand snips. So those blades are reserved for things that used to require the chainsaw, which nobody there really wants to deal with. It just sits collecting dust. I really should've drained the tank, but got too many other things to do to bother worrying about something I never actually lay eyes on

 

[ValleyForge]

There's politics involved, I wont argue that!

But the marketplace is changing, and that is something I'm keeping an eye on

Personally, I don't value battery powered tools for their emissions reductions. What I like the most is how reliable they are. Other features take 2nd place, but are also worthwhile

Take hand drills for example. Scratch that, lets go with a battery powered reciprocating saw loaded with a 12" arborist blade. I've been doing that at a farm where I work. They got a DeWalt 20 volt reciprocating saw for use in the shop. I bought some arborist blades and brought them in. The field hands tried them out for tree pruning and they're totally stoked on that combo for heavier work. But most of their pruning can be done with a much lighter hand snips. So those blades are reserved for things that used to require the chainsaw, which nobody there really wants to deal with. It just sits collecting dust. I really should've drained the tank, but got too many other things to do to bother worrying about something I never actually lay eyes on

the market place isn’t changing as much as the government is just picking winners and losers….again.…

I don’t hold electric saws increased emissions against them either, I just don’t like the government involved in making chainsaw decisions for people..

 

[Sierra_rider]

I think the main knock again battery saws is the weight. Sure you could throw a backpack sorta system on, but then you have to wear that and you're back to having a cord. That might work fine for climbing saws, but it's a PITA for a brushing or falling saw.

I do think the battery-powered top handles are really great for what they are. However, they weigh a couple of pounds more than their gas cousins, once you factor in the battery. I also see the lack of sound as being an advantage in the climbing world. While that all works for the climbing saws, I could see a battery powered falling saw being prohibitively heavy.

 

[Sierra_rider]

I'll add something from a personal perspective. I don't know **** about modifing electric stuff, but on face value it doesn't seem as fun to me. Having a ported saw is part of the fun, but the process of building it is fun to me as well. I guess since it isn't a "perfect" process...figuring things like combustion chamber volume and shape, port timing/width/shape, ignition timing, etc.

With electrics, how do you modify them? Throw more voltage at them?

 

[CuttySnark]

I think the main knock again battery saws is the weight. Sure you could throw a backpack sorta system on, but then you have to wear that and you're back to having a cord. That might work fine for climbing saws, but it's a PITA for a brushing or falling saw.

I do think the battery-powered top handles are really great for what they are. However, they weigh a couple of pounds more than their gas cousins, once you factor in the battery. I also see the lack of sound as being an advantage in the climbing world. While that all works for the climbing saws, I could see a battery powered falling saw being prohibitively heavy.

Some of these hotsaws are powered with automotive V-8's. I kinda doubt anyone here is thinking about how to run one of those for falling...

I was thinking that the rules require carrying everything that the saw needs to run. Which is why I would consider a backpack with a very short cord connecting to the saw. But that's actually a bit dangerous, when you look into how many amps can be involved. So this is just a hypothetical situation

Also, I'm pretty sure no climber will want a power cord from a backpack to the saw. Just one more thing to get tangled up in

If someone were to try this just for hotsaw competition & absolutely nothing else(ever, never ever, nope!), would they be able to compete? Never mind if they never win, or if their saw never works right. Those are not the issues I'm asking about here

 

[Fatherwheels]

Hi, new here. But have been reading here often, as good info seems to be here more than elsewhere on various wood cutting topics

Anyways, this is something I keep wondering about every time I see a hot saw competition video

Why isn't there any electric powered hot saws?

And now that I'm starting to see some interesting battery-powered saws coming out from more respectable brands, it seems this question deserves more attention

Or have I just not spotted the electric hot saw when it happened? I've searched for that, so pretty sure it's not been happening

Why I would want to run such a saw? Max torque at zero RPM. No clutch=no clutch issues. Software driven chain braking - can enable the braking to react just as the bar leaves the cut & long before a guard hits your wrist. Programmable chain speed ramp-up/ramp-down. Consistency from cut to cut. Reliable starting/elimination of all mechanical failure points. Backpack battery allowing a better distribution of saw weight. Variable bar oiling with a BLDC oil pump. Greater flexibility in the ergonomics of how the throttle is placed & more reliable linkage from finger motion to chain speed using optical or hall effect position sensing of the throttle control

Way too dangerous, no noise, next thing tree on top of head.
Seriously though, electricity is dangerous to mankind, they would
need to be well sealed against rain, then how do you keep it cool,
its not like a circular saw that works inside in the dry.

Battery power to compete with the MS400 is going to take some time
to develop, until then no one will be logging with a battery saw.
Battery power is also far worse for the environment, and not renewable,
we can grow corn oil if we must, we can not acquire the materials for battery's
after we use it all up, a certain amount of recycling can be done, but there simply
is not enough of all the materials required to equip mankind with the tools or transport
required to even replace what we use already, let alone into the future, its just a means
to control people, joe public has to stay at home when the grid is down, battery no good
if its flat, on the other hand, if we keep producing corn oil, then we can keep on motoring
and cant easily be kept at home, well, not until all the intel chips in our cars turn us off,
but plenty of people are prepared for that crap too.

 

[Maintenance supervisor]

Can you reprogram your car? The complexity of options your talking about takes serious work! And you should probably patten the system when done.
Electric whatever is the hot topic for people who don't rely on their equipment for the same performance as combustion engines, hell an axe will cut a tree down!
This current topic is inherently political and what control the government is exercising is theirs to wield.
Electric chainsaws were first used in the 30s and there's a damn good reason we didn't follow through with them same as electric cars (1920s ) they are a novelty and virture signaling.

 

[sean donato]

Not that I agree with this sentamate, but there's plenty of ways to get a high powered DC brushless motor into a chainsaw. We use them all the time in 1/5 scale rc. They make motors up and over 50hp. They take high voltage packs and pull hundreds of amps. Run time is also very short, motor and electronic speed control, and battery temps are closely monitored. Then you have the associated cost. Right now 6s to 8s is fairly affordable, and pretty powerful. If your looking for all out performance 12s to 16s is where it's at and you better be ready to sell your liver and first born to pay for it. Hence why most of us stick with 2 stroke engines. For around $2k you can get into an tylor rc or alx "big bore" engine have nearly the same power and run all day for pennies on the dollar.

 

[sean donato]

https://www.mgm-controllers.com/en/sensored-lmt-308040kw motor think it needs an 800amp esc. Just the first one I could think of off the top of my head