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bowline
ArboristSite Lurker
A very sad story,my thoughts go out to the family.
Xtra
ArboristSite Operative
My condolences.
Bad time of year for something like this to happen. You've taken a good step seeing a therapist. Also consult with a good lawyer and take notes about anything you said or is said to you . . . be prepared for the possible next phase.
2 weeks ago I had my main rope guy (3+ yrs with me) walk around a tree I was deadwooding. The tree was a large oak and I didn't see him on the other side. I let loose a broken branch just as he walked under it swung around and caught him on the head; luckily he was wearing his helmet. I stopped the job and didn't go nuts yelling, but reviewed what just happened. Every other time he has been safe, out of the drop zone, always put a tree between him and any swinging load. He didn't know why he decided to walk so close to the opposite side of the tree. I think the holidays and all there stress had a lot to do with it.
I'll be retelling your story to my crew on Tuesday.
(I just told them about Love Tree Service fatality . . . one of my guys is from that area and it really brought home the reality of our industry to him)
Bad time of year for something like this to happen. You've taken a good step seeing a therapist. Also consult with a good lawyer and take notes about anything you said or is said to you . . . be prepared for the possible next phase.
2 weeks ago I had my main rope guy (3+ yrs with me) walk around a tree I was deadwooding. The tree was a large oak and I didn't see him on the other side. I let loose a broken branch just as he walked under it swung around and caught him on the head; luckily he was wearing his helmet. I stopped the job and didn't go nuts yelling, but reviewed what just happened. Every other time he has been safe, out of the drop zone, always put a tree between him and any swinging load. He didn't know why he decided to walk so close to the opposite side of the tree. I think the holidays and all there stress had a lot to do with it.
I'll be retelling your story to my crew on Tuesday.
(I just told them about Love Tree Service fatality . . . one of my guys is from that area and it really brought home the reality of our industry to him)
l2edneck
Small Job Specialist
I cant begin to imagine what it must feel like.My prayers are with you and his family.I can only tell you that things dont happen for no reason.I believe that the man upstairs has a job for us all.When it you time to go to work for him its time.My thoughts are that he is in a better place and knows that it wasn't your fault.
Try to keep yer head up........
-Nick
Try to keep yer head up........
-Nick
N
need to talk
Guest
Thank you for the thoughts and prayers. As for the questions, I have asked the same to myself over and over since this accident. Communication was established and an understanding of what was supposed to happen was understood. We were not trying any new technique or procedure. He was holding the rope and in a ready position when I turned my back to finish my cut. This was a person who had done this many times before. I can't answer about his physical or mental condition at the time of the accident, he appeared to be ready to work, we talked about getting ready for Christmas before starting the job, and this was the second tree we were working on. I have not received autopsy reports yet so heart attack, stroke, stick in eye, ect. I just don't know. I know the feeling of complete helpnessless that I felt as I watched that limb fall is something I do not wish on my worst enemy. Not sure if I will ever get an acceptable answer as to why he was looking down. The hard hat issue is another question that will consume me forever also. I have continually asked myself WTF a thousand times over as I keep seeing this over and over. As for many of you that will relay the story to your help, if it does serve the purpose of preventing another accident, then at least I can be satisfied that I was able to help someone else.
911crash
ArboristSite Member
there are no words that i could say to help you understand or rationalize what happened. A comment that was on a earlier post about one accident may save other lives is true. these posts bring to memory about a near accident one of groundies walking in the drop zone as i was chunking out wood, i happen to be snap cutting because of obstacles below and when i finished cutting i was checking the landing zone before i chucked it and the groundie walks right in the area before anyone cold stop him. One of the other guys pulled him aside and pointed up. After i came down i went over to talk to him to make suer he understood his reply was "since he didn't hear the chainsaw running it was safe to enter the area". Its easy to get rushed, doing a job but when a close call or accident happens time doesn't matter you always wish you could go back and do it right. Best wishes for you, and your family.
Mkarlson
ArboristSite Operative
I feel for you and his family. My best wishes to all involved.
Woodie
"Cap'n Bullcrap'n"
My condolences to all involved. Know that you'll get throught it, though. You will. You'll get through it by doing just what you're doing: therapy, prayers, and the support of your loved ones.
I'm not a member of your industry...I'm a hobbyist. I normally participate only on the chainsaw forum, but I occasionally lurk here to keep myself on my toes...to remember jsut how dangerous sawing trees can be.
But I am continually amazed by the danger undertaken every day by the members of your profession. God love you for doing it...it's a necessary service and homeowners are lucky to have trained people who CAN do it.
I am also continually amazed by the kind of things I hear people say when they get quotes for removals. "Some tree service said they'd need $X,000 to take that thing down!" I always remind them of the number of fatalities and injuries to the members of your profession, and then politely ask if they have any better ideas for getting it on the ground?
Godspeed to you.
I'm not a member of your industry...I'm a hobbyist. I normally participate only on the chainsaw forum, but I occasionally lurk here to keep myself on my toes...to remember jsut how dangerous sawing trees can be.
But I am continually amazed by the danger undertaken every day by the members of your profession. God love you for doing it...it's a necessary service and homeowners are lucky to have trained people who CAN do it.
I am also continually amazed by the kind of things I hear people say when they get quotes for removals. "Some tree service said they'd need $X,000 to take that thing down!" I always remind them of the number of fatalities and injuries to the members of your profession, and then politely ask if they have any better ideas for getting it on the ground?
Godspeed to you.
Chucky
ArboristSite Operative
Even if your groundman had a helmet on, the branch butt still might have killed him. Short of wrapping yourself in 3-foot thick bubble wrap, there's only SO much protection you can wear before you're too constrained by safety measures to perform the job ably.
Safety measures used in arboriculture such as hardhats, chaps, steel-toed boots, chain brakes, 3-point rule climbing, chipper control bars, and many others are still in reality subjective measures that arborists around the world all employ with varying vigillence. Yes, ANSI Z133 safety standards exist, but they are not observed worldwide, they're not perfect, and due to advances in technology, safety is a continuously evolving concept that is never static.
Fifty years from now, I'm sure the standards for safety will be much different from those we have today.
In an imperfect world, there is no such thing as the perfectly safe working environment. Even in Europe and the UK, where safety regulations are the strictest, fatal accidents happen. It is impossible to be completely eliminate risk; you can only mitigate risk.
Freak accidents happen. No one can ever predict WHEN one will happen, if it will EVER happen. Two different tree companies may adhere to roughly the same safety practices, and one may go 20 years without a serious accident, and the other may have two fatalities in 20 years. The difference between them is simply a quirk of odds. One just happens to be luckier than the other.
Of course, companies that don't pay attention to safety will in the long run have more accidents. But the law of probability can be a funny thing. Very unusual things can happen that one would never expect. That's why there's such a thing as a royal flush in poker.
After reading your story, I'm confident, even though your groundman wasn't wearing a hardhat, what happened was a freak accident -- not an accident waiting to happen. When you had a vocal response and made eye contact of readiness with your groundman, you practiced reasonable care in making sure that limb would be cut safely. That's all you could reasonably do.
There's nobody at fault here.
Safety measures used in arboriculture such as hardhats, chaps, steel-toed boots, chain brakes, 3-point rule climbing, chipper control bars, and many others are still in reality subjective measures that arborists around the world all employ with varying vigillence. Yes, ANSI Z133 safety standards exist, but they are not observed worldwide, they're not perfect, and due to advances in technology, safety is a continuously evolving concept that is never static.
Fifty years from now, I'm sure the standards for safety will be much different from those we have today.
In an imperfect world, there is no such thing as the perfectly safe working environment. Even in Europe and the UK, where safety regulations are the strictest, fatal accidents happen. It is impossible to be completely eliminate risk; you can only mitigate risk.
Freak accidents happen. No one can ever predict WHEN one will happen, if it will EVER happen. Two different tree companies may adhere to roughly the same safety practices, and one may go 20 years without a serious accident, and the other may have two fatalities in 20 years. The difference between them is simply a quirk of odds. One just happens to be luckier than the other.
Of course, companies that don't pay attention to safety will in the long run have more accidents. But the law of probability can be a funny thing. Very unusual things can happen that one would never expect. That's why there's such a thing as a royal flush in poker.
After reading your story, I'm confident, even though your groundman wasn't wearing a hardhat, what happened was a freak accident -- not an accident waiting to happen. When you had a vocal response and made eye contact of readiness with your groundman, you practiced reasonable care in making sure that limb would be cut safely. That's all you could reasonably do.
There's nobody at fault here.
notahacker
ArboristSite Operative
I was truely saddened with the story. I can feel the sorrow. Prayers to you and your friend's family.
Baz
ArboristSite Lurker
fatality
My thoughts and prayers go out to you, your family, and the family of the man who died.
My thoughts and prayers go out to you, your family, and the family of the man who died.
Sprig
Addicted to ArboristSite
A deep prayer from my family and me to you, your's, and the family of the man lost. No words can express my sorrow at hearing such news.
Stay strong brother.
Stay strong brother.
Bermie
Addicted to ArboristSite
My deepest condolences, and prayers are with you all.
Thank you for your courage to post this, the reality check for all of us is invaluable.
God be with you.
Thank you for your courage to post this, the reality check for all of us is invaluable.
God be with you.
Jumper
Addicted to ArboristSite
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Terrible news. My heartfelt condolences and prayers to all that are hurting from this loss.
beowulf343
Addicted to ArboristSite
Very sad. My thoughts and prayers are with all involved in this tragic accident.
jab6
ArboristSite Lurker
none
always leave a paper trail...any ppe rules/ company rules- should be on paper. and read and signed by employee.but always remember GOD WILL TAKE YOU WHEN HE WANTS YOU..and theres nothing you can do to stop it.....must have been his time..
always leave a paper trail...any ppe rules/ company rules- should be on paper. and read and signed by employee.but always remember GOD WILL TAKE YOU WHEN HE WANTS YOU..and theres nothing you can do to stop it.....must have been his time..
Magnum783
ArboristSite Guru
He said it very well when he said "God Will take you when he wants." Remember God is control of everything that happens in this world and he was in control then. This was not your fault by no means you did everything you possibly could think to do to prevent this from happening. My prayers will be with you always and I do pray someday you will climb again for I feel this is where your real passion is. Please join us one day again in the trees. Keep your head high you sound like a superb arborist, and a great boss I would be proud to work for you. I have served two tours in Iraq commanded lots of troop some have died you will go the rest of your life wondering why? I do every day, why am I not dead, but I know that God has a plan for me to something special so I pray every day "Lord show me what you have planned." Now go climb again and we will keep praying.
Sincerely
Jared
Manco
ArboristSite Operative
For me, reading this post, made me think, There have been a couple of times that post could have been written by me. It's my understanding from experience and conversation with others, it's not IF you'll have a close call or accident, but WHEN you'll have a close call or accident. I always try to leave myself erring on the side of too safe than to be careless. This sounds like it was his time to go. A hard hat may or may not prevented this. A hard hat is by far a safe tool but it's not going to stop everything. It's hard for me to comment on this post. I've backspaced more than once already. Let me just say that I've imagined having to say what you did and I pray that I don't have to. I hope that you realize how many people the world over will think of this and make me/them pause to be more safety conscious. You may have saved someone elses life ALREADY !
In the past I've had two people walk into a work zone in between cuts and during cuts. One was while I was cutting sections of a pecan limb and dropping them from the bucket. Had a small drop zone beside an open car-port. The guy stepped out just as the section was rolling off my finger tips from 40 or so feet up. Screamed as loud as I could and he froze. The piece landed not more than 2 feet from his boots with a thud. He said he forgot because he didn't hear the saw running and was headed to the water cooler to get water. The way he came in was the only way to access where the drop zone was and he was supposed to be protecting the drop-zone from someone or some thing getting in the way !
The second time a guy got in a work zone I was cutting a vertical limb with what I call a slice-cut. I looked down in just enough time to yell "watch-out!" He straightened up and was about to take a step when the limb speared his back pocket of his Levi jeans and ripped it off his butt. The limb speared his back pocket into the dirt and he didn't have a scratch. Just because someone knows you're cutting and knows not to be in the work zone, doesn't mean they won't still get under you. It's hard for people to keep the fear they have before they get a little experience. It was the end of a long day at the end of a long week and he was trying to get the brush up before I got through. Assumed I wasn't going to cut anymore.
I hope you get through this as well as the groundmans family. A prayer will be prayed.
In the past I've had two people walk into a work zone in between cuts and during cuts. One was while I was cutting sections of a pecan limb and dropping them from the bucket. Had a small drop zone beside an open car-port. The guy stepped out just as the section was rolling off my finger tips from 40 or so feet up. Screamed as loud as I could and he froze. The piece landed not more than 2 feet from his boots with a thud. He said he forgot because he didn't hear the saw running and was headed to the water cooler to get water. The way he came in was the only way to access where the drop zone was and he was supposed to be protecting the drop-zone from someone or some thing getting in the way !
The second time a guy got in a work zone I was cutting a vertical limb with what I call a slice-cut. I looked down in just enough time to yell "watch-out!" He straightened up and was about to take a step when the limb speared his back pocket of his Levi jeans and ripped it off his butt. The limb speared his back pocket into the dirt and he didn't have a scratch. Just because someone knows you're cutting and knows not to be in the work zone, doesn't mean they won't still get under you. It's hard for people to keep the fear they have before they get a little experience. It was the end of a long day at the end of a long week and he was trying to get the brush up before I got through. Assumed I wasn't going to cut anymore.
I hope you get through this as well as the groundmans family. A prayer will be prayed.
1953greg
ArboristSite Guru
need to talk
condolences and prayers to all involved.
just remember, "dont give up, dont ever give up" jimmy v, 1993
no easy answers here. only questions. im sure u have already asked them.
thanks for your post
condolences and prayers to all involved.
just remember, "dont give up, dont ever give up" jimmy v, 1993
no easy answers here. only questions. im sure u have already asked them.
thanks for your post
