LOL I guess I didn't do too bad just looking at a picture. Im a 3rd generation logger and this is all Ive ever done.
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Jhenderson
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What exactly did you value those rotten butts at?
You've got college educated idiots that scale and try to measure volume in every single log or tree on a job, that's not me. DBH, Biltmore, etc.... its all just ******** to be honest with you, something to make them think they didn't waste 4 or more years of their life getting book learned on how to be in the forestry business. Again, that's not me. I honestly didn't value those "rotten butts" one way or the other. Call it a wild assed guess, luck, whatever, I call it EXPERIENCE. In all the years Ive done this, Ive yet to miss a quote on a tract of timber. I walk it, count the trees, figure how many it will take on average to make a load, know what that load should average, and give you an estimate. I wont miss it. The next guy may blow smoke up your ass to get the job and end up missing his quote, I wont.
I cut a tract once that took me 2 years to trade for. Owner wanted 80k his part, I told him it wouldn't do it. I told him 60k. He finally said to cut it, but he thought it would do at least 70K. Again, I told him it would do 60k. It ended up cutting him 61500K. I missed that job by 1500 bucks. Show me an educated idiot that can get that close and I will buy you and your whole family dinner anywhere you want to go.
Uh, some of us college educated "idiots" had no way of getting to be so knowledgeable so easily as you. We had to go to school to get "experience" and then that helped us get work in order to get experienced. For instance, my school, which was a 2 year degree school, got us tree planting work on weekends in the spring. Then they also taught us and made some contacts so we could get employed in the forestry field. Did you start out knowing everything? Forestry is a mix of keeping yourself educated and current with science and techniques.
A college education is not a bad thing. I couldn't afford a 4 year one, but often wished I could. There's more to forestry than buying and selling timber-- A lot more.
I'd never tell somebody what their logs are worth via a picture on the internet. Like Northman said, the market varies depending on location--those logs can be worthless tomorrow (saw that happen in 2008), locales have different demands, and we are all living where species are different. Too many variables. I'm also not a log buyer, never have been so wouldn't know in the first place. Other questions? What is the logging cost going to be? Trucking costs? Pull out a crystal ball and you might hit right on, especially from simply viewing a picture of a loaded log truck in an unknown location.
And, work done by college educated idiots is more likely to make an impact in court, should you be sued for smashing an endangered species or having to address such a threat in a required logging plan. I have a friend who is becoming more educated in forestry through working with foresters on their tree farm plans, and getting experience in that way. We should never seriously disapprove of education and we need to keep educating ourselves until we die.
Value these logs.
Touch a nerve did I? I never before and Im not now, claiming to "know everything" as you put it. The timber business is one of the most localized businesses there is. What logs are worth, methods of harvest, type of operation, prices, etc... vary greatly from one region to the next.Uh, some of us college educated "idiots" had no way of getting to be so knowledgeable so easily as you. We had to go to school to get "experience" and then that helped us get work in order to get experienced. For instance, my school, which was a 2 year degree school, got us tree planting work on weekends in the spring. Then they also taught us and made some contacts so we could get employed in the forestry field. Did you start out knowing everything? Forestry is a mix of keeping yourself educated and current with science and techniques.
A college education is not a bad thing. I couldn't afford a 4 year one, but often wished I could. There's more to forestry than buying and selling timber-- A lot more.
I'd never tell somebody what their logs are worth via a picture on the internet. Like Northman said, the market varies depending on location--those logs can be worthless tomorrow (saw that happen in 2008), locales have different demands, and we are all living where species are different. Too many variables. I'm also not a log buyer, never have been so wouldn't know in the first place. Other questions? What is the logging cost going to be? Trucking costs? Pull out a crystal ball and you might hit right on, especially from simply viewing a picture of a loaded log truck in an unknown location.
And, work done by college educated idiots is more likely to make an impact in court, should you be sued for smashing an endangered species or having to address such a threat in a required logging plan. I have a friend who is becoming more educated in forestry through working with foresters on their tree farm plans, and getting experience in that way. We should never seriously disapprove of education and we need to keep educating ourselves until we die.
Value these logs.
View attachment 966888
I didn't "value" his logs as you put it, he asked for a GUESS and I gave him one. As it turns out, looks like I was pretty damned close. Does that hurt your feelings that I know what the markets are around here? ITS MY FRIGGING JOB AND MY LIVELYHOOD TO KNOW THAT. Now show us on the doll where the mean old logger touched you.
As far as guessing what the load you posted is worth, I HAVE NO IDEA. That's NOT the type of stuff we cut around here and if you tell me its worth $20K or $200, I have no idea.
You ever watched Tombstone? Where Ike tells Wyatt "law don't go round here". Well that pretty much sums it up. Protected species? LMAO! I hear tell theres some speckled birds that hunt at night out west that you need to go hand feed. I DO NOT even bother with government jobs or bids. Ive got more work than I can possibly get to without dealing with bureaucracy or ********.
Im sure all of that will change eventually and it will get ****ed up around here like it is in commiefornia. I wont be around to see that. My kids, also loggers, may have to deal with it, but I wont.
Jhenderson
Addicted to ArboristSite
Its good to know the rest of the folks around here knew what I was talking about when I posed my question. Hard to see how some folks keep their feet on the ground when they’re so full of hot air.
4500 bf? maybe 5500 depends on lengthUh, some of us college educated "idiots" had no way of getting to be so knowledgeable so easily as you. We had to go to school to get "experience" and then that helped us get work in order to get experienced. For instance, my school, which was a 2 year degree school, got us tree planting work on weekends in the spring. Then they also taught us and made some contacts so we could get employed in the forestry field. Did you start out knowing everything? Forestry is a mix of keeping yourself educated and current with science and techniques.
A college education is not a bad thing. I couldn't afford a 4 year one, but often wished I could. There's more to forestry than buying and selling timber-- A lot more.
I'd never tell somebody what their logs are worth via a picture on the internet. Like Northman said, the market varies depending on location--those logs can be worthless tomorrow (saw that happen in 2008), locales have different demands, and we are all living where species are different. Too many variables. I'm also not a log buyer, never have been so wouldn't know in the first place. Other questions? What is the logging cost going to be? Trucking costs? Pull out a crystal ball and you might hit right on, especially from simply viewing a picture of a loaded log truck in an unknown location.
And, work done by college educated idiots is more likely to make an impact in court, should you be sued for smashing an endangered species or having to address such a threat in a required logging plan. I have a friend who is becoming more educated in forestry through working with foresters on their tree farm plans, and getting experience in that way. We should never seriously disapprove of education and we need to keep educating ourselves until we die.
Value these logs.
View attachment 966888
over the sumer value was 1000-1500 ish
Right now 4000-5000 maybe more
The difference a few months makes and a couple feet of snow.
Not to mention a bunch of folks retiring and getting out of the business (whos kids want nothing to do with cause daddy lied about how hard the work was etc)
It is hard work, but its certainly more fun then standing on concrete 12 hours a day or punching keys on a keyboard and smooshing with the jerks in pink button downs...
Only question I saw you posed was about the value of those rotten butts. I don't really see any BAD rotten butts on those 2 loads, fact of the matter is most of what youre calling rotten butts really isn't. Theres only 2 logs on there that are questionable and the rott? is dead center of the log, which normally goes into "cants" anyway so I didn't deduct anything because of it.
Jhenderson
Addicted to ArboristSite
Anybody whose worn out more than 1 saw cutting hardwood knows bucking is where the money is. Anybody stupid enough to put rotten butts in the log pile isn’t smart enough to take the time to buck for grade.
How do you know how far the rot extends? Could be 2 ft, or 8 ft. Either way the grader in the yard is going to ding that log so hard its going to be pulp. That was my point on value. You can’t set value without scaling and grading each log. Could be veneer or it could be pallet because of a bucking mistake . Next comes how badly the mill needs the wood. Grade often runs with market. In a soft market you might be hard pressed to cut a veneer log. In a hot market I’ve had logs scaled 2 grades up because the mill really needed wood.
As for your guess? Volume? Pretty darn good. Value? Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.
How do you know how far the rot extends? Could be 2 ft, or 8 ft. Either way the grader in the yard is going to ding that log so hard its going to be pulp. That was my point on value. You can’t set value without scaling and grading each log. Could be veneer or it could be pallet because of a bucking mistake . Next comes how badly the mill needs the wood. Grade often runs with market. In a soft market you might be hard pressed to cut a veneer log. In a hot market I’ve had logs scaled 2 grades up because the mill really needed wood.
As for your guess? Volume? Pretty darn good. Value? Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.
I think we are both getting way out of our wheelhouse trying to see who can piss the farthest, BUT without being able to tell for sure, those butts look like hard maple, and if so, that rot doesn't extend much past a foot or so, and AGAIN, that heart wood part GENERALLY goes into cants. I can tell you one thing, IT WILL NOT go into pulpwood around here, pallet grade maybe, but there ISNT a pulpwood grade in my part of the world.
Seriously dude, get over it! I don't expect to come into your world and tell you **** from shinola shoe polish, the same professional courtesy could be expected in return.
Jhenderson
Addicted to ArboristSite
You’re leaking that hot air I referred to earlier. “Look like,” and “ if thats so”. Guesses. Like i said, you cant value a hardwood log without being next to it and rolling it over and seeing both ends.
If you've done as much of this as you lead us to believe you have, have you EVER seen 2 scalers that came up with the exact same measurement AND grade? Think carefully before you answer. Ive seen a 30,000 ft pile of logs have as much as 4000 ft and $13000 difference in bids. Black walnut, if that makes any difference to you in your answer. If you want to start a pissing match thread, please feel free to start your own and stop scent marking mine.
I’m proud to be a college educated ”idiot”. It’s taken me a long way in this world. Upshot is, I know how to use scales, and I don’t have to if I don’t want to.
I can design logging roads that are actually meant to go a certain way, work without having to be fixed during construction, and will be around for a long, long time. But, I’m an idiot.
I can survey my own ground to set boundary markers and verify what’s what with a lot of precision. Like, 3” each side of a boundary if I use GPS or .01’ with a total station.
I can also quote a job, and not just in logging. Not from “experience,” but from running the numbers. All of them. Experience is what I use for a gut check.
I’m a ****ing engineer, first and foremost, followed closely by being a superintendent, and I’ve done my fair share of project management on huge projects. One that has spent over half his life working in the field, in some of the nastiest conditions possible from 30’ underground to 300’ in the air.
And yet education is bad and prevents people from having some sort of practical ability or train of thought. Yup, I’m an idiot.
I can design logging roads that are actually meant to go a certain way, work without having to be fixed during construction, and will be around for a long, long time. But, I’m an idiot.
I can survey my own ground to set boundary markers and verify what’s what with a lot of precision. Like, 3” each side of a boundary if I use GPS or .01’ with a total station.
I can also quote a job, and not just in logging. Not from “experience,” but from running the numbers. All of them. Experience is what I use for a gut check.
I’m a ****ing engineer, first and foremost, followed closely by being a superintendent, and I’ve done my fair share of project management on huge projects. One that has spent over half his life working in the field, in some of the nastiest conditions possible from 30’ underground to 300’ in the air.
And yet education is bad and prevents people from having some sort of practical ability or train of thought. Yup, I’m an idiot.
I really really liked this thread. Until, you know, I didn’t.
Welcome to AS.
FYI the Ignore function is top notch here, and makes for some of the comments comically lopsided, don't let the "hardasses" dissuade you, theres a bunch of good folks here with a lot of good knowledge. Just have to weed through the nutters a little bit.
Maybe the point was missed, if so, I will try to make it again. My experiences with forestry degrees are that they barely know a conifer from a deciduous tree, no real clue as to value, harvest plans that are ludicrous at best, and THEY CHARGE THE LANDOWNER to do it. I cut a tract once for a lady from California that had paid to have all that done, right down to a dollar amount she should get. It was the most useless crap Ive ever seen. I told her if she wanted it cut, I would cut it my way, and that she wasted $3000 bucks. I cut it, she got almost twice as much as the "cruise", and she was left with good young marketable timber. In fact its ready to cut again, since it was about 25 years ago when this happened.
Do you think that education made you an operator? A road builder? It didn't. Ive been sitting on a machine since I was 10 years old, built roads when I was 20 that are still there and still usable today, almost 40 years later.
Does it take a degree to be able to use a GPS? NO. If your property has a good survey recorded, I can walk your property line just fine. If it hasn't been, then you as the landowner are going to have to survey it before I cut your timber.
My whole point was that having a degree doesn't make you any better, any more accurate, any more skilled than the rest of us. While you were beating the books, we were beating the bush and getting hands on experience.
Jhenderson
Addicted to ArboristSite
None of those scalers made tally and grade from 100 ft away, let alone a photograph. Thats the ridiculousness of your posts.
Jhenderson
Addicted to ArboristSite
Inferiority complexes have numerous ways of being displayed. One of the most common is attacking, much like a fearful dog bites.
Hey catbuster! I went to OSU's no longer offered Forest Engineering short course. It was 10 weeks of cramming info and learning the basics of road design and logging system planning. It helped in the job competitive bit, and was pretty interesting.
There is a formula for everything--even calculating guyline tension by the time it takes a hammer blow on the lines to reverberate up and down. Not very useful, but interesting and forgotten right away. However, we did go out and do a splice, rigged up a small yarder and intermediate support, and set chokers until our support trees began failing then it was class over for the day.
Students came from all over the world to take that course.
Most loggers I've worked with don't want their kids to be loggers. It's too dangerous and their home life is pretty shot from the long hours keeping equipment maintained and running. I've had more than one rigging guy ask how he could have my job and wishing he could.
Those logs in the picture probably scaled out to 4.8mbf. That is the average load for the area. Logging costs were a bit higher as it was yarder ground, not skidder and some of the mills were far away. The truck was in the midst of a shovel assist to get it up the spur road and onto the main road. That adds cost. They brought out a skidder to pull loaded trucks up. That adds cost. The sale wasn't appraised for that cost, which means no adjustment was made in the package so buyer beware. That was also the sale where an intermediate support, also not appraised for, had to be used to get one end suspension. That adds to the logging cost, which would affect the profit margin.
As for long butting? Pretty much just for sweep in second growth timber. That's done by the faller, and the long butt left in the woods.
I recommended a logger to a friend. They were working nearby and moved in after finishing on their first job. That way, a big cost in that area--moving in and moving out, was cut in half. They did a beautiful job and were very easy and patient to work with, as she had lots of questions, and they had lots of suggestions.
Oh, and I know some boys who have been running equipment for their dad since they could reach the pedals. Dad, who had to drop out of high school, insisted that his boys get a college education. They did. They have great careers but could always go back to running equipment if they have to.
There is a formula for everything--even calculating guyline tension by the time it takes a hammer blow on the lines to reverberate up and down. Not very useful, but interesting and forgotten right away. However, we did go out and do a splice, rigged up a small yarder and intermediate support, and set chokers until our support trees began failing then it was class over for the day.
Students came from all over the world to take that course.
Most loggers I've worked with don't want their kids to be loggers. It's too dangerous and their home life is pretty shot from the long hours keeping equipment maintained and running. I've had more than one rigging guy ask how he could have my job and wishing he could.
Those logs in the picture probably scaled out to 4.8mbf. That is the average load for the area. Logging costs were a bit higher as it was yarder ground, not skidder and some of the mills were far away. The truck was in the midst of a shovel assist to get it up the spur road and onto the main road. That adds cost. They brought out a skidder to pull loaded trucks up. That adds cost. The sale wasn't appraised for that cost, which means no adjustment was made in the package so buyer beware. That was also the sale where an intermediate support, also not appraised for, had to be used to get one end suspension. That adds to the logging cost, which would affect the profit margin.
As for long butting? Pretty much just for sweep in second growth timber. That's done by the faller, and the long butt left in the woods.
I recommended a logger to a friend. They were working nearby and moved in after finishing on their first job. That way, a big cost in that area--moving in and moving out, was cut in half. They did a beautiful job and were very easy and patient to work with, as she had lots of questions, and they had lots of suggestions.
Oh, and I know some boys who have been running equipment for their dad since they could reach the pedals. Dad, who had to drop out of high school, insisted that his boys get a college education. They did. They have great careers but could always go back to running equipment if they have to.
This makes for some spendy logging--yarding downhill.
A beautiful falling job.
A beautiful falling job.
