OK, 372 you got me there. I screwed up when I posted the first part of this thread and I will admit it. Basically is what I was getting at was, what is considered to be one of the safest ways to land a tree with a backlean on it. The main part of the question was really on dealing with the notch and if it had a potential to want to split while making the notch because of the backlean. The part I guess about a open area was a bad way of putting it, I should have said if there was road behind it and you didn't want the tree to go the way of the lean because of the road. I was figuring the answer from the pro's would have been more along the lines of they would have taken the top out and the dropped the rest, but they have that ability to get up the tree. So I was trying to put it in a way that if that was not a resonable way to do it then is that the only safe way to do it and it would take a pro, or could it have a rope put in it strapped just above the notch a plunge cut then cut the back strap with some pressure on the rope (and as added by some a wedge) to give the tree pull in the direction of the notch to bring it over the top. I don't know if 5' of lean on a 60' tree would be to much to bring back over thats why I was trying to pick a # that was relativily small on the lean, but then again 5' could be large. It's on a hypo situation, and just a question for the general knowledge. The only thing I cut up myself is wood that has been dropped already for fire wood once the roads have been opened back up from the winter closier so I don't have to deal with this situation.
notch?
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climber
New Member
felling a tree
we are all good at our own thing and our own way with what we do with trees,lets not bash each other.
our advertisers bailey's and sherrill both have many informative videoes and books.i have several of each and learned abit from each about falling and rigging trees.
the online info. ain't near what their catalogs offer.
we are all good at our own thing and our own way with what we do with trees,lets not bash each other.
our advertisers bailey's and sherrill both have many informative videoes and books.i have several of each and learned abit from each about falling and rigging trees.
the online info. ain't near what their catalogs offer.
Husky372
ArboristSite Guru
Originally posted by TreeCo
Here's the problem fellows.
Lost one says the tree has a backlean. A backlean means it's leaning the way you don't want it to go.
If it can go anyway you want it to........it has no backlean......it only has a lean.
By the way 372, Just what does backlean mean to you, anyway.
Dan
it means the same thing it means to you. but the way he poised the question it didn't matter what way the tree went.
Backlean was lean, I had been reading on one of the other threads and seen side lean and thought I seen front lean. So figured backlean on the term for cutting the notch on the opposite side of the lean. By the way this is the thread I was reading on good pics and a good thread explained alot when seeing the pics and reading the posts plunge cutting LOL guess I just need to shut up and read somemore
ropes are my best freind.ive got logger mates they dont understand tree work,sure they can use a saw(big deal)or push a tree over.confined space or a house near by and there out of there depth.ive had many an argument over simple things to me,seem pointless to them.climbers rule the tree world,no matter what anyone says.got to remember husky its a walk in the park for us to set a line.nothing a logger hates more than to have to call me to put there own tree on the deck
Back Leaners i think, take placing everything on your side, even more so than usual. If ya do everything to max anyway to polish the habits and skills in speed and positiveness; this back lean extreme positioning, just then takes more double checks.
The hinge flexability i think should be high, the face, with no kerf dutchmans, perfectly smooth, unimpeded mechanics. We want pure easy movement, and all line pull directed to target, not distracted. i like my line over the top, back down to base, to 'support'/firm/push on the back spine of the spar leaning back; also i believe more rotational force is then applied against the backlean to pitch forward.
i think steering straight any sidelean should definitaely be handled by the hinge pattern, so as not to be carried on the pull line, for more powerful pull backwards agaisnt the odds, to proper target. If after bringing CG past pivot of hinge you have an obstacle to steer or roll from, i've used some late step dutching that would engage/close only on the one side, as the other side of hinge still pulls. Due to warnings against any dutching the faces, i keep this to smaller trees, high stumps and climbing etc. cuts, but very favorably!
Definitely NOT a time for a slanted backcut in my opinion, as this is going backwards, a false security. Attachment is one from a while back, and also treats another issue besides the slanted backcut dangers i theorize.
i think this is a good analagy of any felling, but just the level of necessity in this extreme positioning and motion, make the strategies workings more evident at this level of competition to target.
Or,
something like that!
:alien:
Edit: Viewing Large Pictures from AS from Starting AS Thread in Support and Announcements Forum
The hinge flexability i think should be high, the face, with no kerf dutchmans, perfectly smooth, unimpeded mechanics. We want pure easy movement, and all line pull directed to target, not distracted. i like my line over the top, back down to base, to 'support'/firm/push on the back spine of the spar leaning back; also i believe more rotational force is then applied against the backlean to pitch forward.
i think steering straight any sidelean should definitaely be handled by the hinge pattern, so as not to be carried on the pull line, for more powerful pull backwards agaisnt the odds, to proper target. If after bringing CG past pivot of hinge you have an obstacle to steer or roll from, i've used some late step dutching that would engage/close only on the one side, as the other side of hinge still pulls. Due to warnings against any dutching the faces, i keep this to smaller trees, high stumps and climbing etc. cuts, but very favorably!
Definitely NOT a time for a slanted backcut in my opinion, as this is going backwards, a false security. Attachment is one from a while back, and also treats another issue besides the slanted backcut dangers i theorize.
i think this is a good analagy of any felling, but just the level of necessity in this extreme positioning and motion, make the strategies workings more evident at this level of competition to target.
Or,
something like that!
:alien:
Edit: Viewing Large Pictures from AS from Starting AS Thread in Support and Announcements Forum
Gypo Logger
Timber Baron
Just thought I would chime in here a give my 2 cents worth. Falling trees is nothing more than defeating or implementing gravity in order to get the tree down safely and as fast as possible. This means using the inherant wisdom of the tree and/or some external force, such as cable, rope or brute force, all working in conjunction with the hingewood. In the woods 99% of trees can be felled of there own accord with simply finessing the holding wood.
Now, with regards to the opening post, if the notch is placed right under the lean, it will require some plunging of the heart centre, because the tree will want to fall very fast due to the excessive lean. Plunging makes it fall all the faster with no fibre pull or butt shatter. However, if we move the knotch around the stump, say another 30 degrees, we have in essence defeated the maximum gravitational pull of the tree, but have also changed it's direction of fall by 30 degrees. This is where wedges come in handy. There are as many ways of bringing down a tree as there are woodticks out there. The trick is to trust and have confidence in the strength of holding wood or the lack thereof. This only comes with experience and every tree is different.
John
Now, with regards to the opening post, if the notch is placed right under the lean, it will require some plunging of the heart centre, because the tree will want to fall very fast due to the excessive lean. Plunging makes it fall all the faster with no fibre pull or butt shatter. However, if we move the knotch around the stump, say another 30 degrees, we have in essence defeated the maximum gravitational pull of the tree, but have also changed it's direction of fall by 30 degrees. This is where wedges come in handy. There are as many ways of bringing down a tree as there are woodticks out there. The trick is to trust and have confidence in the strength of holding wood or the lack thereof. This only comes with experience and every tree is different.
John
Newfie
Addicted to ArboristSite
Husky,
Take a deep breath and relax. I read the same post as you and thought the exact same thing. If there is nothing to break why use a rope unless you want to fall it with the rest of the strip for ease of skidding.
I think the problem is two-fold. lostone got confused with his terminology and the hot shots read much faster than us loggers so they miss some of the important facts. Us stupid loggers know nothing about anything and move our lips when we read. I still haven't finished murph's article so I don't know if it's any good or not.
Too bad it has taken two pages of snipes and jabs and I still don't think anyone has mentioned a bore cut as a viable means of preventing a barber chair on a heavy leaner.
Take a deep breath and relax. I read the same post as you and thought the exact same thing. If there is nothing to break why use a rope unless you want to fall it with the rest of the strip for ease of skidding.
I think the problem is two-fold. lostone got confused with his terminology and the hot shots read much faster than us loggers so they miss some of the important facts. Us stupid loggers know nothing about anything and move our lips when we read. I still haven't finished murph's article so I don't know if it's any good or not.
Too bad it has taken two pages of snipes and jabs and I still don't think anyone has mentioned a bore cut as a viable means of preventing a barber chair on a heavy leaner.
Newfie
Addicted to ArboristSite
I guess Gypo types faster than me.
Kneejerk Bombas
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What causes a barberchair is if there is a lot of force pulling the tree, like when you have a heavy leaner. You can duplicate this force by putting a rope int he tree and pulling too hard.
This is one of the many reasons the truck pull is dangerous. The driver could put too much presure on the line and cause the tree to barberchair.
If you are using a come-a-long, winch, block-and-tackle, or similar setup to pull the tree over, you probably won't get the type of loads you need to barberchair the tree.
Here's what I would do: put a reasonable amount of presure on the line, plan my escape route, make my notch, cut my backcut from the side of the tree so if it does split I'm out of the way, stop my backcut when I have the hinge thickness at about 10% the diameter of the tree, and then signal the man on the rope to slowly finish pulling over the tree (if is hasn't gone over from the initial line presure).
This is one of the many reasons the truck pull is dangerous. The driver could put too much presure on the line and cause the tree to barberchair.
If you are using a come-a-long, winch, block-and-tackle, or similar setup to pull the tree over, you probably won't get the type of loads you need to barberchair the tree.
Here's what I would do: put a reasonable amount of presure on the line, plan my escape route, make my notch, cut my backcut from the side of the tree so if it does split I'm out of the way, stop my backcut when I have the hinge thickness at about 10% the diameter of the tree, and then signal the man on the rope to slowly finish pulling over the tree (if is hasn't gone over from the initial line presure).
Gypo Logger
Timber Baron
Hey Stupid Loggers! LOL
If we look at a notch and hingewood as nothing more than a door swinging on it's hinges, then a barberchair can be visualized as a piece of wood jammed in the door hinges and the door forcefully closed. This causes the hinges to break. So a tree will barberchair if the notch isnt totaly clean and the cuts don't meet. An added precaution against barberchair is to cut "ears", on either side of the undercut.
In defense of climbers, prior to the advent of AS. "They", were not very savy with saws, hence all the "summerwood", summer this long, summer that long. Most climbers actually abhor chainsaws and don't really twig to their proper use, hence all the other antics that are resorted to to make it look like they know what their doing. Of coarse this doesn't include the arborists here, whom I have taught so well.
John
If we look at a notch and hingewood as nothing more than a door swinging on it's hinges, then a barberchair can be visualized as a piece of wood jammed in the door hinges and the door forcefully closed. This causes the hinges to break. So a tree will barberchair if the notch isnt totaly clean and the cuts don't meet. An added precaution against barberchair is to cut "ears", on either side of the undercut.
In defense of climbers, prior to the advent of AS. "They", were not very savy with saws, hence all the "summerwood", summer this long, summer that long. Most climbers actually abhor chainsaws and don't really twig to their proper use, hence all the other antics that are resorted to to make it look like they know what their doing. Of coarse this doesn't include the arborists here, whom I have taught so well.
John
Kneejerk Bombas
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And so was borne the long standing feud between the loggers and arborists...
Gypo Logger
Timber Baron
Hi Mike, it's all good. A bit of good natured ribbing is always welcome.
Wouldn't it be fun if we could all "job shadow" each other for a day, just to see how we all put our day together? I think Silver Blue is the only AS member that was ever on one of my jobs, but alas, he doesn't like me anymore, and why would he?
John
Wouldn't it be fun if we could all "job shadow" each other for a day, just to see how we all put our day together? I think Silver Blue is the only AS member that was ever on one of my jobs, but alas, he doesn't like me anymore, and why would he?
John
You guys are cranky. Going back to what Dan said about knocking on Mrs Smith's door. I must still be in logger phase alot of times I like to just get out the truck with saw and gear in hand and start putting brush on the ground. The ???? door bell never works anyway so maybe the sound of a saw or chipper going will get their lazy asses out of bed. I hate standing at the door step for 15 minutes wondering if the door bell worked or maybe they just dont want to get their rich ass out of bed. I spent a few months working side by side with some loggers and I learned alot about felling dropping whatever term you guys like to use now. Its a whole different mind set and I have spent the last 4 years trying to forget that.
A very important sidewalk had to be installed and the idiots happened to find some roots right under this tree. Anyway, I used the bucket to take off all the tops and planned on falling it. It had a "backlean" so to speak so I put a rope (not high enough) to help persuade her to lay down. I tied off the block to the chipper fifty feet away, Tied a butterfly knot and ran a 2 to 1 come along with the rope to pull it down. Cut the notch, made the backcut, inserted wedge, put saw down and help groundman pull. Nothing. Cut more holding wood and pull. Repeat x3. Grab another wedge, pound the b**tard in, cut a little bit more (feel nervous and incompetent by this time) and finally muscle the prick over but not without it looking like it was going to snap off sideways or backwards in between pulls (paranoid.) The moral of the story: rope good. Wedges good. Rope and wedges great. Dumb luck - yes please.
IMO, if the 60' tree with 5' of backlean was in an open field, it could be fell safely 180 deg. against the lean with wedges or a pull line. If there is anything in reach that you absolutly cannot destroy. then no question about it, set a line up high.
I am a Big Shot logger with no heavy equipment so when I run into a leaner by a building, nice fence or whatever, out comes the B.S. This usually means it is in a yard (no brush) close to my truck.So it is actually easier than a lot of wedging and as close as you can get to 100% sure. I am not an arborist but I use the BS regularly to set a line. It is faster than you would think if you havent used one. But if it isnt a heavy leaner and is over a ratty old barbed wire fence then its wedges.
Lostone, IMHO the safest way is with a set/pull line and wedges. One is backup for the other. Descriptions of how to actually do it are found elsewhere on this site that are a lot better than what I could give
John
I am a Big Shot logger with no heavy equipment so when I run into a leaner by a building, nice fence or whatever, out comes the B.S. This usually means it is in a yard (no brush) close to my truck.So it is actually easier than a lot of wedging and as close as you can get to 100% sure. I am not an arborist but I use the BS regularly to set a line. It is faster than you would think if you havent used one. But if it isnt a heavy leaner and is over a ratty old barbed wire fence then its wedges.
Lostone, IMHO the safest way is with a set/pull line and wedges. One is backup for the other. Descriptions of how to actually do it are found elsewhere on this site that are a lot better than what I could give
John
MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
Re: Hey Stupid Loggers! LOL
Hahaha!!! I would love to spend some time with you, in the brush. I could learn a lot more about felling and bucking, I'll betcha. But I don't hate my saws, I just am a retard when it comes to the inner workings. I wish I did know more about em. I hate mechanicing, but I wouldn't mind learning about my saws.
Hahaha!!! I would love to spend some time with you, in the brush. I could learn a lot more about felling and bucking, I'll betcha. But I don't hate my saws, I just am a retard when it comes to the inner workings. I wish I did know more about em. I hate mechanicing, but I wouldn't mind learning about my saws.
Kneejerk Bombas
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Re: Re: Hey Stupid Loggers! LOL
Take them apart, all the way apart. Then put 'em back together. Never let anyone else work on your saws. You'll be an expert in no time.
Take them apart, all the way apart. Then put 'em back together. Never let anyone else work on your saws. You'll be an expert in no time.
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