Philbert's Chain Salvage Challenge

Arborist Forum

Help Support Arborist Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Please Clean My Gullets!

Even chains need to visit the dentist now and then! (Wonder if the previous user blamed poor cutting by this Vanguard chain on the low kick-back feature?)

Philbert
image.jpg
 
A few of my vintage chains don't really need a vinegar or mild acid soaking because most of the contamination is grime and grease rather than rust. I thought about soaking in diesel fuel or just ordinary gasoline but I thought best to get another recommendation. Can you give me one or two other solvent possibilities? :popcorn:
 
Why not just cut a piece of wood or two and turn the oiler way up?

Mark
That means mounting the used chain onto a bar and that the chain fits the bar. The chain I am referring to is a long loop and being salvaged from a logging operation. No chain has less than 114 DLs and they fit a 36" bar. It would be nice to work with clean lengths.
 
Why not just cut a piece of wood or two and turn the oiler way up?

This has been mentioned a number of times here on A.S. If it works for people, I have no problem with that. Here are some of the reasons why I do it the way I described.

1. If I have one chain already mounted on one saw and a pile of clean wood conveniently located nearby, that might be an option.
- As Wood Doctor notes, I may not have the correct bar/saw/sprocket for the chain I am cleaning (the chain may belong to someone else).
- Or, I may be cleaning it to identify it's condition (rust, damaged links, etc.) before re-sizing it to fit a bar/saw/sprocket that I do have.
- If I have multiple chains to clean, and they are not already mounted on saws, it takes much more time to mount each one to clean;
- I tend to do these in batches of 4 to 6 (or more) chains at a time, which would be slow to mount, run, dismount, etc.
- Some of the chains I salvage and restore will not run through a chainsaw until I have done a few more steps (e.g., de-rust, free up links, de-burr drive links, etc.).
- Some chains are so grungy that I do not want to run them through my saws, putting dirt, grit, rust, and grease (not just bar oil) into my bar grooves and sprockets, then requiring me to clean the saw.
- I live in the city and do not have piles of nice clean wood stacked outside my door.
- I live in the city and cannot run chainsaws at night, when I tend to do this chain cleaning in the basement.
2. Running the chain in wood may clean the side plates and parts of the cutters, but cannot get in-between the links, around the rivets, etc. the way that chemical cleaning can.
- This may not be an issue with normally run chain, but can be with older, neglected, rescued/salvaged ones.
- This type of cleaning has helped locating rust and freeing frozen links.
- It would be similar to the difference between wiping off sweat with a towel after a hard day of work, versus taking a shower or bath.
3. It really makes a difference to me in being able to see damage, repairs needed, identifying marks, etc., such as the Pop rivet in the earlier post, mixed chain links spliced together, and other oddities that come with used chain. Again, these may not be the same issues if it is your chain on your saw and you are the one that just used it (or who made, and already knows about those interesting repairs).

Philbert
 
Hittin' the Skids

This chain has life left in it's teeth, and will still cut, but is approaching end-of-life (EOL) status due to worn out tie straps.

Tension too tight? Not enough oil?

Philbert

image.jpg
 
"That thar chain is done slap wore out."

It's interesting to see how different chains wear out. I have seen some where the cutters are worn back to nibs, but the drive links and tie-straps look new.

On others, sprocket and tension damage jump out.

Dull or damaged cutters are the easiest thing to fix in some cases.

Philbert
 
Hydrogen Embrittlement
?

*** WARNING! Science Fair project ahead!

"Hydrogen embrittlement is the process by which various metals, most importantly high-strength steel, become brittle and fracture following exposure to hydrogen."
- Wikipedia
You can read more of the technical stuff on line. Key points to me are that hardened, high-strength steels (think saw chain cutters) are more at risk following exposure to acids (think rust removal).

Background

I am not a chemist, or a metallurgist. But when I had cutters from an older chain, that I had soaked in oxalic acid, crack when punched out of a chain loop, I became concerned that the acid treatment might be the cause of, or contributed to the cracking.

HyEmb3.jpg

I looked around on line to get some information. Some articles/posts discussed differences between mineral (hydrochloric, sulfuric, nitric, phosphoric, etc.) and organic (acetic, oxalic, citric, etc.) acids. Some recommended heating metals to 350 to 400 degrees F for 4 hours, after removing them from an acid solution to remove excess hydrogen.

Again, you can read more about this stuff if you are interested. I wanted to find out if it was an issue for my rust removal procedures on chainsaw chains. So I retreated to "Philbert's Research Laboratory / Laundry Room" to do some quick-and-dirty R-and-D.

Procedure

I took a single piece of scrap Oregon 91 chain, which was in good shape, with no apparent rust, but had the cutters worn off to the nibs. I punched/broke this into 4 sections and had no cracking of any cutters or tie straps in this process. I soaked these sections for 12 hours in one of four, different rust removal treatments (each has been described in earlier posts):
1. vinegar (acetic acid)
2. oxalic acid
3. EvapoRust
4. electrolytic (battery charger)
5. citric acid EDIT: repeated this test with citric acid a few weeks later, with similar results)

(Note: I did not run any of these 10-12 drive link sections through nice, clean wood as a tratement, as they were too short).

After rinsing, and a light wire brushing, I baked them for 15 minutes in a 150 degree F oven to remove residual moisture - this is how I normally do it; not sure that I want to bake them for 4 hours. Afterwards, I punched out several cutters and tie straps from each sample, and compared them to the chain before treatment (making the sample sections) as the control. I deliberately punched more aggressively than normal to promote any cracking.

HyEmb2.jpg
Results

No cracks developed in any of the samples.

I also did not notice any loss of chrome in the electrolytic sample, like I did with an earlier chain.

Discussion

This chain was not as old as the chain whose cutters cracked, and was not previously rusted. Older/different chains may have different metallurgy. Rust affects metal, and removing rust does not necessarily repair that damage. The chemical reactions with rusted chains may be different than those with non-rusted chains. It would take a quantitative lab, and a qualified metallurgist to do some real experiments and explanations.

Here are my findings/take-aways:
1. Some older, rusted chains may be brittle, or become embrittled by the rust removal method chosen. They may be OK for a display chain, but not necessarily a working chain.

2. To play it safe, use a weaker organic acid solution (if you use acid), and do not leave the chain in longer than the minimal amount required. Brush, rinse, and dry promptly.

3. Electrolysis may only damage chrome plating that is already weak or damaged(?). I will have to experiment with this more, but I would not use it on an older, special chain (e.g. a display chain) just to play it safe.

4. Some of these chains are essentially worthless without doing anything, so it still makes sense to try.

Philbert
 
Challenge Chain #7 - Just Scratching the Surface

I wanted a few feet of the older style 'scratcher' chain for a long time, just for 'show-and-tell' purposes, but it has been surprisingly hard to find, even in used condition. So when an A.S. member sent me a few rusty pieces, I decided to add them to the 'Challenge Chain' thread.

Scratcher1.jpg Scratcher2.jpg

I don't plan on running this chain, but want pieces where the links at least pivot. Some of this chain is in condition similar to Challenge Chain #5 (starting at post #26), where the rust covers everything and has permeated between the links. The first 9 or so links on the larger piece (upper photo - as received) pivot - the remainder are frozen or very stiff. I am doubtful that I can save any of the smaller piece, as the links themselves appear to be spalling.

Per my 'standard procedure' I first degreased the chain in a commercial cleaner - turned the solution pretty black. I can now read that it is Mall chain. I can also see the extent of the rust and the deterioration of the smaller piece.

I don't know if this chain has any chrome plating (anyone know?), but it certainly is not obvious, like on modern chain. And since it will not be used for cutting, I decided to put it into the electrolysis bath for a day or two to see what comes out.

Philbert

EDIT: Please see update in Post #139, below
More info on Scratcher Chain: http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/scratcher-chain.271236/
 
A few of my vintage chains don't really need a vinegar or mild acid soaking because most of the contamination is grime and grease rather than rust. I thought about soaking in diesel fuel or just ordinary gasoline but I thought best to get another recommendation. Can you give me one or two other solvent possibilities?

Sorry I missed this. I have been using the water-based, commercial de-greasers with sodium hydroxide, followed by a thorough rinse in water, and drying at 150 -200F for 15 minutes. Works fast, without fumes. An old toothbrush helps for really dirty chains. Wear gloves and splash goggles. Coat/saturate with WD-40 or some other light oil after to prevent rusting.

For smaller things, I have used paint thinner, in a glass bottle with a loose lid, inside a water bath in my ultra sonic cleaner (USC). I used to use paint thinner a lot for degreasing bicycle parts, before all of the water and citrus based degreasers became more common. I would save the dirty solution in an old thinner container and let the dirt and grease settle to the bottom, then pour off the clear stuff and re-use.

Gasoline has some obvious flammability issues, and diesel fuel stinks if you use it inside your house. Paint thinner is still flammable, but has a higher flash point than gasoline. It also has a distinct odor that will travel, but is not as strong or as durable as gas or diesel. It will still absorb through your skin like most organic solvents.

Philbert
 
Philbert, your thread is very interesting so thank you for all your effort, l'm sure many will benefit from your fine detailled analysis of the semi-ruined chain.l have a question l believe that you would be well qualified to answer, 'is there a paticular brand of chain that holds up better than others and is noticably better quality'? CR888.
 
Hard to say.

I am sure that manufacturers have changed alloys over the years, along with improvements in metallurgy and plating technology, etc. So old chains may not be indicative of current chains.

I have seen some old chains where the cutters appeared to be fully chromed. But a chain that holds up to rust better is not necessarily one that cuts better.

In an earlier post I showed 2 identical looking chains covered in gunk: one cleaned up like new, and one was heavily pitted under the gunk.

So my advice is to buy chains based on how they cut, and store them so that they don't rust in the first place (clean, oiled, off of the ground, etc.).

Philbert
 
Hard to say.

I am sure that manufacturers have changed alloys over the years, along with improvements in metallurgy and plating technology, etc. So old chains may not be indicative of current chains.

I have seen some old chains where the cutters appeared to be fully chromed. But a chain that holds up to rust better is not necessarily one that cuts better.

In an earlier post I showed 2 identical looking chains covered in gunk: one cleaned up like new, and one was heavily pitted under the gunk.

So my advice is to buy chains based on how they cut, and store them so that they don't rust in the first place (clean, oiled, off of the ground, etc.).

Philbert
Thanks Philbert l think your right with the prevention is better than cure approach with chain maintenance. I just wanted to see if there was a stand out performer. Where l am bar oil is around $15+ per liter so l use canola oil with good results. The best chain cleaner l have ever used was caustic based. Not so good for rust but sap ect would just dissolve and rinse off.
 
I'd like to report one interesting thing that I found out last year (and the year before) at a GTG. The chains that many men compete with in competition are chains that others have already thrown away. That's because the chain's cutters are then sometimes very small from several sharpening efforts.

The competitors' reasoning is that the old chain is much lighter in weight but still easy to razor sharpen and cut like a bandit. Rakers (depth gauges) are accordingly dropped way down. These competitors avoid new chains like a plague, preferring to sharpen an old chain for competition cutting. Please pardon me if I gave away a secret. I may never be invited to another GTG for reporting this observation.

Forum, take it from there.
 
Challenge Chain #7 - Results

Below, please see the scratcher chain after some extensive rust treatments, including: electrolysis; hand scrubbing with a stainless steel 'scratch brush' (appropriate, right?) shown in post #96; freeing rusted links by tapping and lubricating with 3-In-One oil and 'Knock'Er Loose' as shown in post #112; soaking in EvapoRust; more scrubbing.

Scratch3.jpg Scratch4.jpg

Would not win 'best-in-show', but I have 17 for the original 18-1/2 links on the larger section mostly freed up. A few of the rivets need additional attention. A lot of additional rust and pitting was revealed under the grime.

I am not familiar with the high torque saws that used these chains, so I cannot say if it would hold up as a working chain. The 7 links of the smaller section are too far gone, and would crumble if I did much more, after removing the surface rust with electrolysis.

I may try to polish or remove some more of the pitting. I just got a ScotchBrite 'Radial Bristle Brush' at a store close-out which might be appropriate for a chain of this scale.

UPDATE: I let some penetrating oil set in the sticky links for several days, then worked them some more, brushed off some apparent burrs, tapped the stuck rivets with a punch, and soaked them again in some citric acid solution that I am trying (4 tablespoons/2 ounces dry powder per gallon of water). I now have 17 free (but pitted) links!

Bristle.jpg

WINNER? - Philbert (mostly). I have a section of scratcher chain for 'show-and-tell' purposes that I did not have before.

LESSONS?
- Still better to prevent rust than have to remove it.
- This chain was a lot of work, but worth it to me because it was hard to find.
- Sometimes, a combination of methods may be needed.
- You cannot tell the condition of a chain until it is clean.
 
Bits 'N Pieces

A few of the left over pieces - look like things sifted from an archeological dig. Drive links must have been made in Texas? Note how the rust treatments don't necessarily penetrate between adjacent pieces if they are frozen together - which is why an iterative (soak, tap, brush, soak, tap, brush, . . . ) process may work better than a single rust removal method. And, as always, removing rust does not mean that you are replacing metal that has been lost.

Interesting how the cutters have extended 'tails' to keep them from rocking back too far - is this because there is no depth gauge on these chains?

Also interesting how the center rakers look similar to the reduced kickback bumpers on many modern chains. Easy to see how we get 'raker', 'depth gauge', 'bumper', etc., confused when discussing chains.

Scratcher Bits2.jpg
Philbert
 

Latest posts

Back
Top