Philbert's Chain Salvage Challenge

[Philbert]

WD-40 Rust Soak

EvapoRust sells for around $30 a gallon at local auto parts stores. This WD-40 product was listed at $40 a gallon at the only industrial supply place I could find that carried it.

http://www.wd40specialist.com/products/rust-remover/

I assume that they are comparable. Wanted to try them side-by-side.

Found it today at a local farm store for $22, plus a $10 manufacturer's rebate (hang tag on the jug)! Hopefully, it will become more available at hardware and home centers, bringing the price of EvapoRust down as well. Also wanted to give other guys a heads-up on the rebate deal.

Philbert

 

[Wood Doctor]

I can usually get a 20% off deal for EvapoRust at a local Harbor Freight store. That brings the gallon price down to about $24. I also have a feeling it will drop further. A gallon would last me for years. Best part about these chemicals is that they work faster than vinegar and tend to leave the chrome on.

I picked up four more "bone pile"chains from my logger buddy last week. Three were pulling right and all of them needed the rakers dropped. Most of the time he files onsite rather than grind sharpen. So, I traded him three Pferd files for the used chains. Once again, I made three shorter loops from two of his long ones with practically no waste. At least 70% of every cutter remained and not one cutter was knocked off. Drive links had no burrs at all, and rust/grime was minimal.

So, after grind sharpening and dropping the rakers, I now have six more loops that I rate in good condition.

 

[Philbert]

Citric Acid

Citric acid was mentioned in one of the posts. Anybody have hands-on experience using it for rust?

The local wine/beer making store has it for $4.50 for 8 ounces ($9/pound). eBay has it 5 pounds for $15 shipped ($3/pound). Interested to hear comments on how it has worked or not before buying another product.

Thanks.

Philbert

UPDATE: bought 5 pounds of citric acid powder off of eBay for $15 shipped. Trying it (4 tablespoons/2 ounces of dry powder per gallon of water) on a few odds and ends.

 

[Wood Doctor]

I received a tip today that soaking in toilet bowel cleaner also gets rid of rust. However, I have a feeling that almost all of these cheap acidic products will also knock the chrome right off, similar to common vinegar.

I suppose we should discuss whether a chain really needs chrome to work. Many sawyers have told be that chrome on cutter teeth is nothing but window dressing. Chrome adds nothing to the tooth's cutting performance. Hmmm... I have several sharp knives in my shop that have no chrome. They cut perfectly.

 

[Philbert]

I received a tip today that soaking in toilet bowel cleaner also gets rid of rust.

Cheap toilet bowl cleaners often contain hydrochloric acid (HCL) - same thing as muriatic acid. Gotta read the labels and/or MSDS.

I suppose we should discuss whether a chain really needs chrome to work.

As I understand it, the harder chrome protects the top and side plates against abrasive wear. Oregon sells some of their chains with a thicker chrome plating for abrasive use (old railroad ties, certain woods, etc.). At the same time, the chrome plating itself is brittle, and can't hold an edge, so you don't want it too thick. If you look closely, they don't plate the entire tooth, only the upper part of the top and side plates.

Philbert

 

[Philbert]

This may be another Evapo-Rust competitor. $25 a gallon at a local home center.

Philbert

 

[wkeev]

I got about 10 loops of 404 chain in a cooler from a tree guy in saw deal . They all had several links that were rusted up . I put them in a container of used motor oil and let them soak for about a month . I took them out the other day and let them drain off on a piece of cardboard . I checked them today and all the links were loose . I hung them up to drip off some more and then will put in the parts washer . It seems like an easy fix if you can soak and forget about them for a while.

 

[dl5205]

I've enjoyed this thread. I've used many of the techniques talked about here over several years for parts other than saw chain. I first ran into the Electrolysis method on an old Tractor board. In a pinch, I have even used recycled Battery Acid, (I DO NOT Recommend This!) followed by A LOT of water as a 'quick-and-dirty' method on a non-critical tool.

While it's very unsafe, I've been guilty of using 'old' gas as a solvent (Again, NOT SAFE!). And 'old' diesel is very effective for some things if you have time to let it soak.

I didn't take the time today to re-read every post, and I hope this is not redundant, but below is a link to Ed's Red, a highly-thought-of home brew.

home.comcast.net/~dsmjd/tux/dsmjd/tech/eds_red.htm

Happy Rust Fighting!

 

[Philbert]

Thanks for the nice comments.

If 'Ed's Red' is the 50/50 acetone/ATF mix I tried it on an early Challenge Chain (#5?). Did not work for me after 4-5 months of soaking on that chain.

Nothing works on everything, so it's good to have a few tools/tricks/techniques to try!

Philbert

 

[Philbert]

Citric Acid

I have also been trying citric acid due to some favorable postings and comments. Bought a 5 pound bag of dry powder off of eBay for $15, shipped. Have been mixing it 4 Tablespoons (2 dry ounces) per gallon of water and have had pretty good initial results. Seems to go after the rust and does not discolor the metal as the oxalic acid (turns it green) and acetic acid/vinegar (turns it black) did.



Notice this drive link from Challenge Chain #7. The rust attacked the exposed metal, but the area around the rivet hole must have been protected by grease or oil? As always, removing the rust does not replace the lost metal, hence the pits (this was one of the heavily rusted pieces shown in Post #140).

Maybe I should try ascorbic acid (vitamin C) next? Dip the chain in orange juice?

Philbert

 

[dl5205]

....If 'Ed's Red' is the 50/50 acetone/ATF mix...

Ed's Red is eq. pts. Dex III/ K1/ Acetone/ Aliphatic Mineral Spirits (Or 'Stoddard Solvent or Varsol), optionally with some Anhydrous Lanolin added.

Probably not as effective for the specific purpose of 'de-rusting' saw chain as the EvapoRust, but it's an interesting 'home brew' that some folks swear by. I've known about it for years, but never mixed any up, even though I have/ have had most of the ingredients. Seeing this thread today reminded me of the stuff, so I Googled the recipe.

 

[7sleeper]

Hey Philbert

As you know I am an advocate of the HF type grinder and I finally had time to do a comparison.

I hope you don't disaprove of me showing my comparison in your thread.

Cutting is done with a 2000W Makita electric chainsaw (it was Saturday afternoon and I didn't want to upset the neighbors).

First part is brand new Stihl chain.
Second part is after sharpening with HF type electric grinder.
Third part is after filing with Husqvarna roller guide and brand new round file 4.8mm. 5 strokes per tooth. I didn't have a new 4.5mm on hand as Stihl usually requires.

Wood is some type of fir/spruce/pine construction wood.

Checked the rakers and filed them after every filing.



7

 

[Philbert]

I hope you don't disaprove of me showing my comparison in your thread.

You just wanted to show off your legs!

The question of which way to sharpen, or which grinder to use, really does belong in another thread. There is always the question of skill involved: I believe that you can get better cutters with a HF grinder than a lot of people can with a file; and others can do better with a Husqvarna roller guide than some can with an Oregon grinder, etc.

As far as this thread goes, for salvaging difficult chains, I advocate the use of a grinder over a file when taking heavily rocked chains backed to clean metal, or when evening out cutters that are all over the place in length or angles. Which grinder is a matter of preference (or availability).

BTW - I like your Makita (I have an older model) and saw horse.

Philbert

 

[Wood Doctor]

One has to wonder if the Timberline sharpener would do better than all three of these, except maybe a brand new Stihl, Carlton, or Oregon chain.

I agree that this video belonged in another thread. I use my freebee HF grinder as a dedicated raker (depth gauge) dropper. The HF grinder is not a professional piece of equipment. In time, it will not hold up, and very few chain sharpening shops use them because of that weakness.

 

[7sleeper]

I will allow myself one last answer(sorry Philbert for derailing your thread). Of course this el cheapo is only designed for the occasional homeowner user and not the proffesional.

And Philbert I understand completely that you are envious of my legs...

7

 

[Philbert]

Challenge Chain #8

Somebody hit something and cracked off 2 teeth on this STIHL .325 chain.




Rest of the teeth looked new (sharpened once). Easy fix. Since we use a lot of this chain I had 2 donor teeth to spin in and save a $20 chain.

WINNER? - Philbert!

LESSONS? - Save those extra drive links, cutters, tie straps, etc.

 

[7sleeper]

But Phil,

There was still a lot of life left in those cutters.

7

 

[Philbert]

More Citric Acid

Here are some 'before' and 'after' photos of a estate sale 'C'-clamp with surface rust. I 'washed' it first under running water with a stainless steel brush to loosen and remove surface stuff. Then washed it in a degreaser to make sure that the acid contacts the rust, and not grease, dirt, etc. Overnight soak in citric acid (3 ounces / 6 tablespoons powder per gallon of water), followed by hand brushing with the same stainless steel brush.



Note that this did not occur by soaking in citric acid alone. But I was able to clean down to the metal after soaking, and remove stuff that would not brush off before. The wire brush reached into details that the ScotchBrite wheel would not reach, and did not remove as much metal - the ScotchBrite wheel will actually smoothen and polish rough metal.

Philbert

 

[Philbert]

A Note on ScotchBrite Wheels

I don't work for 3M, but have used a number of their abrasive products. I have mentioned them several times in a number of threads, and wanted to clarify some of the differences.

As a disclaimer, other companies also make 'non-woven abrasive pads and wheels', but like 'Kleenex' brand facial tissues, we mostly refer to these as 'ScotchBrite' products. These are basically synthetic fabric of different densities, coated/impregnated with different abrasives (typically silicon carbide or aluminum oxide) in different grits, and formed into pads, wheels, etc. Just like wire wheels come in different styles, and coarse or fine versions; and different buffing compounds can be on different density fabric wheels; there are different applications for these on saws and chains, and did not want to confuse anyone with my general references.


Some of these are formed into hard wheels for use on a bench grinder or buffer. They have the density of a hard, felt wheel, and may be called 'Polishing' or 'Deburring' wheels. These are great for removing rust on flat surfaces, like tools, but not on contoured surfaces like chains. They will remove a lot of metal if you are not careful! I use them to remove burrs on drive links, and to round over depth gauges after filing/grinding to height.



Some of these are noticeably softer, and may be mounted on mandrels for use on a drill press, hand drill, right angle grinder, die grinder, Dremel tool, etc. These will conform somewhat to a contoured shape, although, not as much as a soft, wire wheel. I have been using these to remove some of the cosmetic staining/coatings on chains left behind by acid rust removal treatments. You may also be able to make your own versions of these by stacking dishwashing type pads on a mandrel.



Lots of types, sizes, and grits available! I also use some 'no-scratch' hand pads for cleaning other parts of saws and OPE.

Philbert

 

[Philbert]

Challenge Chain Group #9

I received a group of chains that appeared routine: 2 appeared to have light surface rust; the others were just grimy.



I did my normal cleaning, and got a surprise: the standard cleaning removed almost all of the surface rust on the first 2 chains, AND, revealed rust under the grime on most of the other chains! A little switch-a-roo!

Removed the rust with citric acid.

WINNER? - Philbert! I got several usable chains.

LESSONS? - (old one) - You can't tell what you've got until the chains are clean.