Pioneer chainsaws

[Hoggwood]

Nice.

Those cylinders have a decompression valve that is actuated by the starter assembly and some "linkage". It should be easy to pull over if it is operating correctly. So, compression can often "feel" down at the spark plug orifice. Those starters are not the most robust. Do not deactivate that mechanism beyond testing, if necessary. I reckon the starter assembly would not be up for the task (full compression) for any length of time. As well, that flywheel does not have conventional pawls that will spring back when the centripetal force decreases upon stopping. It is a plastic hub that mates/engages with the flywheel. Not advisable to be pulling the grip start out when that flywheel is turning. One might be accustomed to this when stopping the engine with conventional pawls/pulley.

 

[Brian Van]

I've read were the starters are weak on these. And yes it does pull easy. I was wondering if it was like the Pro Mac 610s. Is there a fix for this?

 

[Hoggwood]

I was wondering if it was like the Pro Mac 610s. Is there a fix for this?

Not sure I am following what you are getting at. A fix for what?

It ran "sluggish". In the cut or just throttling up? Did you adjust and/or pull/clean that carb/lines etc?

 

[Brian Van]

I wanted to share this pic with you all. If you all want to see the inside let me know. I'll post the rest.

 

[Brian Van]

Not sure I am following what you are getting at. A fix for what?

It ran "sluggish". In the cut or just throttling up? Did you adjust and/or pull/clean that carb/lines etc?

The starter problem is what I was getting at. Anyone ever try taking starter to a foundry and have it made out of some kind of metal? Just something to talk about.

 

[paul hill]

I've been trying to adapt one of the Husky coils to a P51 as some of you have done. I started off with a blue Husky coil and elongated the mounting hole on the coil that sits closest to the flywheel. I was able to get the gap close but that also required grinding the head of the coil mounting bolt down so I could get the coil close to the flywheel

I tested it and had spark. The saw fired but didn't stay running. I originally thought the saw may have some carb issues since it had been sitting for a while. Then I checked and found the saw was out of gas. I thought my buddy said he put fresh gas in it before he dropped it off at my house. Miscommunication somewhere!!

Anyway, I put gas in the saw and confirmed that it ran with the original coil that I had baked in the oven. It ran well. Back to the blue Husky coil and no spark.

I ordered a couple of the black Husky coils and have adapted one of them to fit as close as possible and again, no spark. I have no idea what I'm missing.

Any suggestions??

 

[Beavers]

l wish l could help answer your question but l have not attempted that Modification on any of my Saws.

 

[fossil]

I've been trying to adapt one of the Husky coils to a P51 as some of you have done. I started off with a blue Husky coil and elongated the mounting hole on the coil that sits closest to the flywheel. I was able to get the gap close but that also required grinding the head of the coil mounting bolt down so I could get the coil close to the flywheel

I tested it and had spark. The saw fired but didn't stay running. I originally thought the saw may have some carb issues since it had been sitting for a while. Then I checked and found the saw was out of gas. I thought my buddy said he put fresh gas in it before he dropped it off at my house. Miscommunication somewhere!!

Anyway, I put gas in the saw and confirmed that it ran with the original coil that I had baked in the oven. It ran well. Back to the blue Husky coil and no spark.

I ordered a couple of the black Husky coils and have adapted one of them to fit as close as possible and again, no spark. I have no idea what I'm missing.

Any suggestions??

If the coils are good the only think I can think of is a bad ground between the coil laminations and the cylinder. Maybe try sanding the lamination where it touches the cylinder to make sure there's no varnish overspray preventing the ground.

If it's any help here's what another member posted using a Chinese 365 coil

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/pioneer-p61-no-spark.130254/#post-6018940

 

[fossil]

I dug out a 427656 seal from my stash and measured it up. Came up with 1.125 OD and .566 ID which crosses to a 5662 seal double lip or 5652 single lip. They're both .050 wider but those Pioneer cases have plenty of room.

FYI, I've never pulled a double lip seal out of an old Pioneer. People who insist saws can only use double-lip seals obviously have never pulled one down.

425076 is CR6541
425077 is CR6582

These two are used on all the 600 series and the J series big boys, if you have one of those.

Chris B.

Thanks for doing that Chris.

As you say, the double lip seals aren't really double lipped (sealing) although they do make them. The common seal that looks double lipped has an inner sealing lip and an outer dust lip. The 5200 Poulan series, the big Homelite 650 / 750 and many others all came with no dust seal as well. The fact that they lasted 30 years would indicate the dust lip doesn't add much if anything in a chainsaw.
Lots of good reading in the Timken seal catalog on seal design and application.

 

[paul hill]

If the coils are good the only think I can think of is a bad ground between the coil laminations and the cylinder. Maybe try sanding the lamination where it touches the cylinder to make sure there's no varnish overspray preventing the ground.

If it's any help here's what another member posted using a Chinese 365 coil

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/pioneer-p61-no-spark.130254/#post-6018940

Thank you for the idea, I'll check that and give it a try tomorrow. The post you showed is what I've been trying to do. I have a couple of those coils and I assume they work since they're brand new. I can double check them on a Husky saw to make sure though.

 

[Walter Glover]

Finally received the P28 found back in May. Very excellent condition snd runs strong! Cannot believe how nice it is for a 38yr old saw.

 

[dynodave]

I've been trying to adapt one of the Husky coils to a P51 as some of you have done. I started off with a blue Husky coil and elongated the mounting hole on the coil that sits closest to the flywheel. I was able to get the gap close but that also required grinding the head of the coil mounting bolt down so I could get the coil close to the flywheel

I tested it and had spark. The saw fired but didn't stay running. I originally thought the saw may have some carb issues since it had been sitting for a while. Then I checked and found the saw was out of gas. I thought my buddy said he put fresh gas in it before he dropped it off at my house. Miscommunication somewhere!!

Anyway, I put gas in the saw and confirmed that it ran with the original coil that I had baked in the oven. It ran well. Back to the blue Husky coil and no spark.

I ordered a couple of the black Husky coils and have adapted one of them to fit as close as possible and again, no spark. I have no idea what I'm missing.
Any suggestions??

I don't have an answer but only a observation I am pondering. That is, that some flywheel 2 magnets are sequenced... some are +/north first then -/south second other brands of saws are reversed. I would use an educated guess and say that EI (not points/coil) are affected by the power pulse(sine wave) polarity sequence. Wrong brand may affect work or NO work. Also have a theory on some 3 magnet wheels....

 

[Walter Glover]

WRT magnetic polarity for ignitions I venture it makes no difference but could be proven by using a drill to turn the engine with plug out to observe spark. Also watch for spark as rpm of drill is varied. I had a saw that had spark only above around 600rpm
Worth checking

 

[Lou]

The starter problem is what I was getting at. Anyone ever try taking starter to a foundry and have it made out of some kind of metal? Just something to talk about.

The weak point IMO is the take-up spool assembly, the part that contacts the engine seems to be more substantial. I think the plastic starter could easily and inexpensively be duplicated with a 3D printer... I don't have one or I would try selling them.
For a compression test, I suggest you remove the starter cover (that also disables the compression release) and turn it with a socket and ratchet. That way there is absolutely no danger of damaging the starter.
Lou

 

[rocketnorton]

drill & socket.

hi, lou. have runnin farmsaw here now.

 

[Lou]

So why haven't we seen it running here? Need videos, along with a complete journal of what you did to get it that way.
I'll bet I'm not the only one that likes to see a Pioneer returned from the dead.
Do you think it was an ignition problem all along?
Although the low compression would have caused it too.
A FarmSaw is what we're talking about... It was rescued from a dump many years back by a gent whose name escapes me. He will always have my gratitude (cannibalized a take-up spool).

@ Brian Van;
To make a starter spool from metal requires an oversized mold be inserted into casting sand. The casting shrinks as it cools. Spokane Steel uses a process that might work here. They create a wax mold (by the thousands), encase it in casting sand, heat it to melt the wax, then pour molten metal into the now empty form.
Working from memory and it isn't 100%, but anyone reading this have a Harley Davidson knife? If yes it was probably cast at Spokane Steel. I'm uncertain of where they were finished.

 

[fossil]

So why haven't we seen it running here? Need videos, along with a complete journal of what you did to get it that way.
I'll bet I'm not the only one that likes to see a Pioneer returned from the dead.
Do you think it was an ignition problem all along?
Although the low compression would have caused it too.
A FarmSaw is what we're talking about... It was rescued from a dump many years back by a gent whose name escapes me. He will always have my gratitude (cannibalized a take-up spool).

@ Brian Van;
To make a starter spool from metal requires an oversized mold be inserted into casting sand. The casting shrinks as it cools. Spokane Steel uses a process that might work here. They create a wax mold (by the thousands), encase it in casting sand, heat it to melt the wax, then pour molten metal into the now empty form.
Working from memory and it isn't 100%, but anyone reading this have a Harley Davidson knife? If yes it was probably cast at Spokane Steel. I'm uncertain of where they were finished.

That's called investment casting. Lots of stuff made that way today as it is very accurate. Jewellry, turbine impellers, gun receivers and a lot more.

Smaller stuff is generally made by making a wax copy either by molding it (volume stuff) and encasing it in plaster of paris adding a sprue (Shaft to pour the molten metal in and to allow shrinkage to occur there) and a vent shaft to drive all the air out. When the plaster of paris cures, the mold is put in an oven to melt the wax out. The molten metal can than be poured in. If the part is made by hand, fingerprints will show up on the casting. I would think there would be some how to's on you tube.

 

[Lou]

I didn't work at Spokane Steel, I was a contracter. We calibrated/certified temperature indicating devices and heat treat ovens.
Sort of like my military career (aircraft instrumentation)... but make a mistake here and you don't create a smoking hole. I nor none of my subordinates did... thank you Lord.

 

[rocketnorton]

i got a couple part saws w/good top ends. that & coil swap. also put brake on. will make vid next time cuttin. been building new wood trailer & workin on 2 bikes here. wood pile's been neglected lately.

 

[MS260 Fan]

I put these in the 2 man saw thread. Probably a better fit over here. I have a lot of hours into this one. I even cleaned up the internals of the carb with brasso. Hundreds of pics. Here are a few.
All new fasteners. Thanks to jeff do providing the owners manual. I was able to order all new slot head screws at the correct length. Anything that isn't new and zinc plated is either painted or clear coated.