Pool of water in Oak, suggestions please

[treeseer]

I grew up in Kneejerk's neighborhood, and it often got down below -30F. Like him, I gotta be skeptical about the freeze-thaw deal; never read anything in Shigo about it, and he was in NH. Both places colder than PA, I believe.

lxt, re your expertise with split trunks, when are we going to see your work on that big ash that the town wrangled with you about?

re plants installed in that fork, the added soil would also displace water and deal with the freeze/thaw and aesthetic concerns. Try whatever grows around there--christmas fern, euonymus, vinca...

cuda man, how about a picture of the other side of that split!

 

[lxt]

lxt, re your expertise with split trunks, when are we going to see your work on that big ash that the town wrangled with you about?

Seer that tree has been done & even inspected!! Honestly at the time I didnt get the chance to take pic`s, Believe me If I did they would be on here!! If you have any doubts goto the thread I mentioned & you will see the tree that failed I was speaking about, It failed the same way Fireman mentioned!!

Im not trying to bust balls here, Im just stating a true concern for the poster & possible remedies, to do nothing especially over my way will result in what me & Fireman have mentioned, I dont want to see that happen to the tree in question!!

Dont worry Im sure this summer Ill get some pic`s up of support systems & other than removal pic`s!!


LXT..............

 

[RaisedByWolves]

I call BS on the freeze thaw theory. I see lots of trees that have puddles like that for many, many years. Could it happen, I suppose. It's not enough of a risk to take action.

You live in the country. You need to accept the natural beauty that surrounds you.

The tree looks natural and beautiful to me. The moss is cool, I'd like to be able to get it to grow more on my trees.

I'd be tempted to throw some dirt in the hole and plant a fern, some vines, or something. That would be really unique, a tree some flowers and vines, along with the moss, Awesome!

Im staying out of the freeze/thaw thing, but I agree with the reas of this post.


Two things Im wondering, does that water dri up, ie is it from rain and not coming from the tree its self?


And secondly, would dirt/moisture in there without a chance to dry out occasonally hurt the tree?



.

 

[juststumps]

i would just throw a cable between the two leads,,and not worry about it....wost case,, add a rod just above the split,, also....then sit back and have a cold one...

i'm no expert,, but if its holding water,, i would guess that things are OK...when it stops holding water,,,,, where is the water going????? then i'd worry !!!

 

[treeseer]

Seer that tree has been done & even inspected!! Honestly at the time I didnt get the chance to take pic`s, Believe me If I did they would be on here!!

OOO my goodness, after all the hue and cry and spit and stink that was raised about that tree, you could not be bothered to take a picture? Why does my hip feel dislocated--feels like my leg is being pulled.

Your theory that a crotch with water in it split apart because of the water has some basic logical fallacies.

Think about it...:monkey:

 

[lxt]

OOO my goodness, after all the hue and cry and spit and stink that was raised about that tree, you could not be bothered to take a picture? Why does my hip feel dislocated--feels like my leg is being pulled.

Your theory that a crotch with water in it split apart because of the water has some basic logical fallacies.

Think about it...:monkey:

Ya know, I dont see any pic`s of work that you have done!! MMmmm.. but all this knowledge you think you have is quickly posted!!

My complaint about that Ash Tree was not of the tree but of the "cert. Arborist" & the stupidity of his thought process, Yeah!! Someone with an ISA cert. suggesting something stupid....Well kinda like you!!

Its not a fallacie & just because Mr. Shigo didnt write about it doesnt mean ****, Funny how Fireman gave advice just as I have & when nothing is done Failure occurred.

Yes many trees have these pockets in the woods!! It is not desireable to have them in trees in our front yards, Again the poster asked for suggestions & remedies......I gave him mine!!

Treeseer, when do we get to see pic`s of you at work? of you & your knowledge providing remedy & cure? If you have any doubts of my ability come on up!!! hey...bring M.D.Vaden up with ya........I would love that 2-egomaniacs that think they knowitall about everything tree related & then some!!!, by the way two CA`s that are members from the PenDel chapter came out at my request & gave thumbs up on that Ash tree! come up Ill show ya & you can be #3.


Now you can think about it :monkey:



LXT..................I offered to pay M.D Vadens way up, you`re close Ill put you up for the night in a hotel..........Bring your gear!!

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

The pictures of you at work LXT were more than entertaining. You use a bucket lift to trim a juvenile Norway maple???
You claim to be a carrier Arborist and you don't use a saddle, hard hat, safety glasses or any other industry standard gear? I'm not trying to start a safety Nazi thread, but if you don't have and use professional tools, what does that tell us. That's not even getting into what liability and safety risk you open yourself, your wife/groundperson, your co-workers, or any others around you to.
If you don't follow standard industry safety rules, what other industry standards do you ignore?
For you to question Treeseer's knowledge, a Board Certified Master Arborist, the industry's highest certification, while you prattle on about something that you have no research, studies, or anything but some mistaken, cause and effect, anecdotal evidence about, is ludicrous.
Treeseer has more arborcultural knowledge in his little finger, than you have in your whole hand.
And if it weren't bad enough that you insult a man of Guy's stature, you then question Shigo? Let me ask you this, have you ever read one issue of the ISA's Journal Of Arboriculture? Can you site a study, or even have recollection of a study that supports your claims that a small pocket of water, ever so slightly expanding, in a flexible material like wood, which is comprised of about 50% water itself, is the reason all, already weak, co-dominant stems fail?

How do you know that ice forming in tight crotches doesn't statistically reduce failures? It could be that by slightly pushing outward on the two limbs, and it increases the crotch angle, this reduces bark inclusions. The resulting microscopic damage, and consequent cellular repair, could slowly build a stronger union.
We know tree movement strengthen trees, much the same way human muscles are built stronger by damage and repair. It is entirely possible that this microscopic expansions and contractions of freezing water strengthen the tree. Until you have some solid research, you're just pissing in the wind.
To come on a homeowner helper site and give advice that is unsupported by industry standards or studies, then insult folks with it, is rude, and arrogant sounding.
I don't want to discourage you from posting, it's a good way to learn which of your ideas are half baked, like this one.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

I never thought of that, might be cool looking, but how would it be for the tree?

I can't think of a reason it would be bad. If you were concerned, you could find a flower pot that just fits in there and use that.

One time, at band camp, I was climbing a huge Silver Maple. This thing was as big as they get. It was nearing the end of it's life and starting to decline. I was removing some hazard limbs over a drive.
I got about half way up and saw this really weird looking branch union on a limb about 16" in diameter. It took me a while to figure out what was going on, but it was not a limb, it was a 16'' Silver Maple tree growing out of an old pocket of decay.
It looked just like a branch, but it was another tree growing in the rotting core of the parent tree. Very fascinating! Wish I would have taken a picture.

 

[treeseer]

Cuda, please post a pic of the other side of that fork so we can explore support options.

lxt, if you want pics of my work, for starters, see
http://www.treecareindustry.org/PDFs/TCI_Mag_Feb08_web1.pdf

http://www.tcia.org/PDFs/TCI_Mag_09_04_FULLsm.pdf

http://www.tcia.org/PDFs/TCI_Mag_June_07.pdf

http://www.tcia.org/PDFs/TCI_Mag_July_07.pdf

I don't want to fuss with you--we agree on much more than we differ on. I just am generally bothered when threads get started and derailed and no one bothers telling The Rest of the Story. It would be nice to see the ash specs and actions so we could learn your cabling methods, that's all.

Peace, brother.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

You want to see guy doing tree work??? Here's a video showing him in action!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oCDcTxFUkk

Makes you look amature...

 

[lxt]

Kneejerk, atleast the latter is true, first off what Norway Maple? I dont have pic`s of a norway maple perhaps some classes in tree ID would help you!!

what is a carrier arborist? I have heard of Motor Carrier!!

what do you mean I dont use the proper gear?

I show 1 pic of me without a hard hat & explained the reason, I posted those pic`s to show the bucket(s) more so than anything else, the thread was geared toward that!! Everyone else who viewed posted giving prop`s!!

I have no idea where your stupidity in stating the fact I disregard safety comes from!! I utilize safety in every facet where it is possible & have many Safety Awards from the big tree companies to show for it!!!

Treeseer, I have respect for you & have suggested to many on here in their posts for advice to ask you, I know you are knowledgeable & walk the walk but I dont understand why the harsh replies & questioning of my ability!!

In any thread on here when someone asks for advice/opinions they get several different opinions & it always leads to an off topic arguement!! The only way any one can validate what they say they do is to show that they can & do it in person........thats the best proof & Kneejerk I hardly consider a 70ft Red Maple(not Norway) a juvenile!!

Yes I have read many of the ISA journals, they have changed it to arboriculture & urban forestry, I am currently reading volume 34 no.1 2008!!

In my area & it may not hold true everywhere!! freeze/thaw is a problem, even in the building trades they have to allow for expansion/contraction!! water in an inclusion I have seen freeze & spread leaders apart revealing fresh split wood once it thaws the inclusion will close this cycle may happen several times a year....during spring & summer months its not as noticeable the tree will usually attempt to heal this area but it is already weakened.

I am amazed that some one would think water freezes & only has vertical movement I guess when water freezes it doesnt move laterally? Ice has moved & carved up our earth for along time & to disregard & just plain think it doesnt effect trees is crazy!!

I have yet to see ice form in a crotch that has helped its structural ability by preventing included bark , The only Half baked Idea is the fodder you have posted here kneejerk, you dont even know what trees you are looking at & make false accusations about safety.....GET A CLUE!!


LXT................

 

[lxt]

You want to see guy doing tree work??? Here's a video showing him in action!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oCDcTxFUkk

Makes you look amature...

I truely hope this isnt Treeseer & that you posted the wrong video!! yeah boy..........I feel like a real amateur now!! Is that you Kneejerk?


LXT..........another 1hr in the oven & you`ll be full baked!

 

[BayouTree]

I like the expansion foam idea. It can be shaped and and painted to where you could hardly even tell it's there. Wait until the cavity is good and dry though (if it does dry out). I would do that or nothing at all. I gotta believe filling it with dirt would just end you up with a mucky mess in the cavity highly anaerobic that might not be able to grow anything. Plus it seems it would hold the moist conditions on the trunk of the tree longer than would otherwise occur possibly causing decay in that spot. Isn't that also a reason in addition to the oxygen exchange with the roots for keeping dirt off of the root flairs and the trunk of trees ?

 

[treeseer]

Treeseer ain't that tall so it can't be him.

O thanks a bunch homeboy; good to know my bud's got my back! MY tan isn't that deep either...

Bayou, good points, but still want to see the other side of that fork.

 

[appalachianarbo]

you're just pissing in the wind

That's exactly what this SPROUT thinks he's doing. HAHAHA!

I am amazed that some one would think water freezes & only has vertical movement I guess when water freezes it doesnt move laterally?

Once again, it depends on the container. Yes, if water is completely sealed within a pocket in a tree, it can expand when frozen and possibly cause tissue damage. With this tree, the pocket is not sealed.

Without seeing the other side of the tree, we can't tell what the deal is, but worst case, toss a cable up there and rest easy.

I removed a very fast growing twin trunk poplar (70') this weekend. The trunks diverged at 3' and the inclusion reached into the ground. It had a cable in it, but the tree grew really fast (10' a year - annual rings were 2" wide) and exerted a whole lot of lateral pressure on the cable, enough that I felt removal was warranted. Two targets existed, one under each half. The inclusion had pockets that were wet but had no standing water. In this case, freezing had absolutely nothing to do with anything. The increase in trunk diameter was the culprit.

 

[lxt]

That's exactly what this SPROUT thinks he's doing. HAHAHA!




Once again, it depends on the container. Yes, if water is completely sealed within a pocket in a tree, it can expand when frozen and possibly cause tissue damage. With this tree, the pocket is not sealed.

I disagree!! I have seen different! what about the inclusions that have began to heal over forming a smaller entrance/exit? Again Tree cavities are not soup bowls!!!!!!!!!!!! if all tree cavities fit your description I might agree.

Most cavities, especially one close to the base usually are far more expansive below the surface, some situations on removals like what is pictured I have flush cut the stump to find the problem is much worse than it appeared, then on the other hand I have seen that it looked better than what the surface problem portrayed!!

On this tree we dont know what the pocket looks like, put it this way.....if you have a cavity with a 3inch long 1inch wide entrance(the hole) but the cavity itself has the ability to hold a gallon or more of water........are you telling me that when this water freezes & tries to leave the cavity(through vertical movement) that it pushes all that frozen water out through that hole? that the internal expansion within the cavity is doing no harm?

If anything I would think this action would interupt the CODIT, always gauging into the side walls of the cavity & creating internal wounds that really never get a chance to heal, allow this to take place seasonally & over time the outcome will not be pretty.

Due to the area the poster lives in this might not be a problem, however based on his region & the plant life having acclimated to a certain climate condition I would wonder if such a scenario would not be More detrimental to the tree?


LXT...........

 

[PB]

There is very little that freezing and thawing water does not damage. I doubt trees are any exception. How big of a factor it is in trees I don't know but if it cracks rocks, cement and engine blocks.....it likely doesn't do trees any good either.

+1 Water freezes from the top down, creating a cover, and when the bottom freezes the top has already attached to the bark. Water expands in all directions when frozen, measure the diameter of the bowl before and after freezing.

You arbor guys will argue over anything. Pick up a physics or biology book and you have all your answers.

 

[PB]

Cuda, my advice would be to leave it alone. The damage is already done and as the tree gets older the water pocket will disappear. When the weather warms, that little puddle will dry up. I am not an expert, but the experts can't seem to agree on anything.

Edit: Adding any chemical to a tree, whether it is bleach or expanding foam, will cause more damage than the moss and water.

 

[ray benson]

+1 Water freezes from the top down, creating a cover, and when the bottom freezes the top has already attached to the bark. Water expands in all directions when frozen, measure the diameter of the bowl before and after freezing.

You arbor guys will argue over anything. Pick up a physics or biology book and you have all your answers.

That is exactly what I saw when a small gallon pail was inadvertently left outside under a gutter downspout.The temp dropped freezing the water. The pail had a small lip on the inside of the rim. The pail looked bloated and split at the bottom.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

I thought it would be fun to try this:

A 6"x6" pine block, about a foot long, holes drilled and filled with water.

Ice should blast that wood right apart, hey?