Pool of water in Oak, suggestions please

[PB]

I thought it would be fun to try this:




Ice should blast that wood right apart, hey?

You are about as dense as they come. I am guessing that you don't believe in evolution and that the earth is only 6,000 years old too.

Leave that block out for a couple of years and get back to us.

Oh and you should know, being a wood expert and all, that if that block is not frozen it will absorb the water. Defeats the point of the demonstration.

 

[PB]

There are so many things wrong with that setup, I don't even know where to begin.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

The block was frozen.

You think the water soaked into the wood?

 

[PB]

The block was frozen.

You think the water soaked into the wood?

Yeah I do. It would create surrounding pressure actually making the hole smaller and stabilizing the hole.

 

[PB]

Why did you go against the grain, I haven't seen many trees growing horizontal.

 

[lxt]

PlantBiologist, good posts.....I said earlier on in this thread the same thing you mentioned, argue over anything!!!!!

Ray Benson & PlantBiologist............thankyou!! I didnt know how many ways to try and explain this, you guys gave insight & examples!!

LXT............

 

[PB]

PlantBiologist, good posts.....I said earlier on in this thread the same thing you mentioned, argue over anything!!!!!

Ray Benson & PlantBiologist............thankyou!! I didnt know how many ways to try and explain this, you guys gave insight & examples!!

LXT............

Yeah I am done. It is like trying to explain why the sky is blue to a child. They just don't get it.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Holes still full, ice forming on top, except one hole leaking out side a little, refilled it. Sorry this high scientifical experiment is angering you.

 

[lxt]

Holes still full, ice forming on top, except one hole leaking out side a little, refilled it. Sorry this high scientifical experiment is angering you.

It is anything but a high scientifical experiment, did you read PlantBiologists post? Did you read Ray Bensons post?

What you are doing.....what you are calling an experiment!! is far from an experiment....As it has been said there are many things wrong with that setup, to name a few;

horizontal pine block with man made holes, that block is not a living organism, you drilled the holes!!!! thus glazing the side walls, there is no natural decay, no microorganisms, etc..etc.. your results honestly will prove nothing & you will probably end up with a heavier block of wood!!

It would be like me taking a plastic bowl(a suggestion mentioned) putting a lid on it after filling it with water, drilling a hole in the lid with a keyhole saw & waiting to see what happens, my guess the plastic bowl cracks because of an expansion deformity thus popping the lid off..............or worse!!


My wife kicks the sh## out of me for ruining one of her tupperware bowls!!!

seriously neither scenario would prove anything, this is something I wish would be a topicin one of the industry Mag`s: inclusion cavities/failures regarding ice freeze/thaw.

LXT....................

 

[Ed Roland]

This is great

opcorn:

 

[PB]

Holes still full, ice forming on top, except one hole leaking out side a little, refilled it. Sorry this high scientifical experiment is angering you.

One last post. It is the fact that you will swear up and down that thousands and thousands of scientists for that past 2 centuries, are incorrect because of your little experiment that angers me. Your little demonstration proves nothing except for your lack of knowledge in the subject you claim to be an expert in.

I am out for good this time.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

One last post. It is the fact that you will swear up and down that thousands and thousands of scientists for that past 2 centuries, are incorrect because of your little experiment that angers me. Your little demonstration proves nothing except for your lack of knowledge in the subject you claim to be an expert in.

I am out for good this time.

What are you talking about???

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

It is anything but a high scientifical experiment, did you read PlantBiologists post? Did you read Ray Bensons post?

What you are doing.....what you are calling an experiment!! is far from an experiment....As it has been said there are many things wrong with that setup, to name a few;

horizontal pine block with man made holes, that block is not a living organism, you drilled the holes!!!! thus glazing the side walls, there is no natural decay, no microorganisms, etc..etc.. your results honestly will prove nothing & you will probably end up with a heavier block of wood!!

It would be like me taking a plastic bowl(a suggestion mentioned) putting a lid on it after filling it with water, drilling a hole in the lid with a keyhole saw & waiting to see what happens, my guess the plastic bowl cracks because of an expansion deformity thus popping the lid off..............or worse!!


My wife kicks the sh## out of me for ruining one of her tupperware bowls!!!

seriously neither scenario would prove anything, this is something I wish would be a topicin one of the industry Mag`s: inclusion cavities/failures regarding ice freeze/thaw.

LXT....................

Yeah, plastic is not wood, and we know water expands when it freezes.

Do you think wood expands when it freezes?

When you have a pocket of water inside wood, wood which has a lot of water in it to start with, what happens when they freeze more or less simultaneously?

Why don't you think the water in my block will push on the wood?

 

[lxt]

Yeah, plastic is not wood, and we know water expands when it freezes.

Do you think wood expands when it freezes?

When you have a pocket of water inside wood, wood which has a lot of water in it to start with, what happens when they freeze more or less simultaneously?

Why don't you think the water in my block will push on the wood?

wood, metal, vinyl siding...... and many other materials are subject to expansion & contraction!!

plug up your down spout at the outlet & see what happens!!! ever have ice dam up under your shingles?

I posted what may give you a wrong conclusion in your experiment, I can only relay what I have witnessed in some trees given this subject.

your block with holes is no where near comparable to a tree with a water filled cavity/inclusion..............therefore the results are/will be unsubstantiated!!


LXT................

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

My wood block with holes is nothing like a tree with holes, but plastic bowls, gutters, and shingles are, I see.

 

[treeseer]

Fascinating stuff; I agree with weasel.

apparbo--why did you not just put in new cables?

lxt--I don't see how this topic can be defined well enough to be the topic of an article. What tree failures that you saw could be due to other factors. I don't deny that expanding water may do some damage, but having lived a long time in the frozen northland, I don't recall trees failing due to freezing water.

From the way you describe it, they should be getting blasted on a regular basis.

We've scared Cuda off, and will never see a pic of the other side of that for.

"If the water is unsightly and must be prevented, siphon it out and fill with some unabrasive material." p. 455. Shigo lived in NH, studying trees closely for 30+ years, and this is all he had to say about water pockets. You may be a shrewd dude, lxt, but I gotta go with Alex on this one.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

I was really hoping to get some result with my block, but nothing. The large hole near the end had a small check crack, and I thought if there was any pressure, that crack might open a little, but nothing.

The hole that I refilled, when it froze, the ice pushed up and made a little mound over the hole.

I'm just trying to recreate this expansion with a model. Next I think I'll try going in the end grain and boring out a wide area with a small opening.

May be a try with soaking the wood, freezing it, then filling with water and re-freezing.

 

[Themadd1]

I love how homeowner help forum always turns into some kind of ridiculous arguement on some physiological/biological issue. Do you really think the "homeowner" cares about your personal P!$$!ng contest. Take it elsewhere... Come one. Start a new thread or something. At some point the moderators really need to take control of this or move the thread or something.

All this does is make Arborists look stupid to the general public. Seriously.....:angry2:

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

The homeowner is lucky to have a group of arborists discuss a problem in detail. He now understands that there isn't agreement on what is best for the tree. He got the simple answer early on, if that's what he wanted.

If you want to restrict the answers in this forum, they should be to industry standards. If it isn't in ANSI, or backed up by peer reviewed science, don't advise homeowners like that is how it is.

Some of the best tree health discussions on the interweb have been right here on ArboristSite Homeowner Helper Forum, inspired by questions and topics that just don't get brought up anywhere else.

Look around for intelligent, correct, answers to tree health questions on the web, it's not an easy task. And to have several career arborists will to go into such detail, without being paid or hope of getting work from it, is pretty nice for the homeowner.

What good arborist is going to come and participate here if there isn't a pay off for him?

 

[Ed Roland]

The homeowner is lucky to have a group of arborists discuss a problem in detail. He now understands that there isn't agreement on what is best for the tree. He got the simple answer early on, if that's what he wanted.

If you want to restrict the answers in this forum, they should be to industry standards. If it isn't in ANSI, or backed up by peer reviewed science, don't advise homeowners like that is how it is.

Some of the best tree health discussions on the interweb have been right here on ArboristSite Homeowner Helper Forum, inspired by questions and topics that just don't get brought up anywhere else.

Look around for intelligent, correct, answers to tree health questions on the web, it's not an easy task. And to have several career arborists will to go into such detail, without being paid or hope of getting work from it, is pretty nice for the homeowner.

What good arborist is going to come and participate here if there isn't a pay off for him?

+1 Mike. I enjoy the give and take. Lord knows Treeseer and I have had our rounds. I think its healthy and I always come away having learned something.

Keep up the critical thinking, guys. If it happens to be delivered harshly then so what. We all have thick skin, right? The last thing we need is moderators limiting our replies.

This has actually been one of the more interesting threads because I think you are all right. It simply is a question of circumstance.