question on tree falling

[bitzer]

That's a good vid. If the guy got his back cut in fast it might not have happened. He stopped cutting, I think that's why it baberchaired.

Thats kind of what it looked like. That tree didn't seem to be leaning that bad though, but then again its softwood. A whole different animal from what I usually deal in. The hard leaners I usually bore cut. I tried to swing through the back cut on a Hickory a week or two ago that was leanin but not that bad. I've cut similar ones like this, but this tree was crazy hard compared to the other ones nearby. I couldn't get the cut in fast enough and with about
5" left to the hinge on the far side of where I was standing and two inches of hinge where I was standing I hear that sickening splitting noise and she ran about 30' up the tree. The top hung up into a nearby maple and it took some fanagling with the back hoe to get it to come down. I thought about dropping that maple, but it was really sketchy. Any lean like that and I'm bore cutting from now on. I ended up cracking the bucket on the hoe and spent the rest of the afternoon, grinding and welding.

 

[parrisw]

Thats kind of what it looked like. That tree didn't seem to be leaning that bad though, but then again its softwood. A whole different animal from what I usually deal in. The hard leaners I usually bore cut. I tried to swing through the back cut on a Hickory a week or two ago that was leanin but not that bad. I've cut similar ones like this, but this tree was crazy hard compared to the other ones nearby. I couldn't get the cut in fast enough and with about
5" left to the hinge on the far side of where I was standing and two inches of hinge where I was standing I hear that sickening splitting noise and she ran about 30' up the tree. The top hung up into a nearby maple and it took some fanagling with the back hoe to get it to come down. I thought about dropping that maple, but it was really sketchy. Any lean like that and I'm bore cutting from now on. I ended up cracking the bucket on the hoe and spent the rest of the afternoon, grinding and welding.

Ya for sure. Glad you didn't get hurt, bore cut sounds like a good idea.

 

[bitzer]

"The first one can be a nessecity on trees that are over balanced"

===========

Another example of an overbalance tree would be a larger diameter (say 50"+) where the top has broken off and it is only 40 feet tall.

The best and most common advice for these guys is cut the flat of the face until you just start to feel the bar pinch.

I'm not saying open face doesn't work in its setting but trying a small shallow face on one of these would be good enough to cause loggers familiar with them to laugh for months.

There is a reason for the deep face.
You're moving the fulcrum to help with the fall.

Can mean less wedging.

Absolutely. I've put too shallow a face in one that could have used a deeper one. You smack adn break wedges until you've got blisters. Its all about the lay out of the tree. Glad someone knew what I was talking about with "over balance," couldn't think of a better term to explain it. You just gotta know.

 

[dragrcr]

I'm not the most experienced feller here, but wouldn't the deep 50% notch also make it more difficult to make a deep enough backcut to get a wedge in behind the saw on some trees? On a tree that has even a slight lean toward the backcut (or even no lean with a little wind toward the backcut), the holding wood may pull or even break completely before you get a wedge in there. Not safe.

And yes, I've used deeper notches, but only rarely when the situation calls for it.[/QUOTE/]

A big benefit of a 50% face is where the holding wood comes from, the center of the tree, IMO this can really help with bad side leaners cause its positioning.

while I agree with you, deep notches are needed in some situations, but I would also say that it is not a good idea to tell someone who has to ask a question like that, that it is ok to drop a tree that way, because he will start going half way into the tree on every tree, and sooner or later one will chair him. the correct answer often depends on who asked it.

 

[redprospector]

Like red said big solid snags respond well to a 50% notch. The snag has to be big enough in diameter that you can stll drive in wedges in the backcut. It will take a long time to make that deep of a face cut but the results are worth it.

Under normal cicumstances the hinge should be well forward of 50%. 25% in big trees 30% on normal size trees. The deeper the face cut the more difficult it is to drive the tree with wedges and the more that tree will move with the wind. You risk a barberchair with too deep of a notch and a little wind. BTW that notch you drew is upside down. (JK)

The second is sometimes called a salami cut. It works well for small trees up to 6" or so where the direction you want the tree to go is straight down off the stump. I use this most often where there are many trees in a clump or row like thinning along a river. I reach in with my saw and do the salami cut on the tree to be thinned and then lift the butt and pull it out. Often the cut is made as high as you can reach to allow the tree to drop but still be supported by the other trees in the clump.

The other time the slami cut (aka diagonal cut) is used is with a hung up tree. In this case many salami cuts are used (2'-4' lengths) are used to reduce the height of the tree until it falls free. You have to be very careful and light on your feet but it works well.

Ok, it's acceptable sometimes. I've used the "salami" cut several times to get a hanger down. I hate it when people use it to cut 1" to 3" trees though. Just leaves a sharp stob to take out tires. A flatter cut is ok on those little saplings though. On anything of any size at all, no undercut is bad news in my book.

Andy

 

[heimannm]

Like red said big solid snags respond well to a 50% notch. The snag has to be big enough in diameter that you can stll drive in wedges in the backcut. It will take a long time to make that deep of a face cut but the results are worth it.

Under normal cicumstances the hinge should be well forward of 50%. 25% in big trees 30% on normal size trees. The deeper the face cut the more difficult it is to drive the tree with wedges and the more that tree will move with the wind. You risk a barberchair with too deep of a notch and a little wind. BTW that notch you drew is upside down. (JK)

The second is sometimes called a salami cut. It works well for small trees up to 6" or so where the direction you want the tree to go is straight down off the stump. I use this most often where there are many trees in a clump or row like thinning along a river. I reach in with my saw and do the salami cut on the tree to be thinned and then lift the butt and pull it out. Often the cut is made as high as you can reach to allow the tree to drop but still be supported by the other trees in the clump.

The other time the slami cut (aka diagonal cut) is used is with a hung up tree. In this case many salami cuts are used (2'-4' lengths) are used to reduce the height of the tree until it falls free. You have to be very careful and light on your feet but it works well.

I'm sure a lot of you remember Andy (Lakeside 53); he had a good thread going about getting a hung/leaner down with the "salami" cut but he had another name for it. If I remember the details, the skilled sawyer that took it down added his comments as well.

Mark

 

[TreePointer]

while I agree with you, deep notches are needed in some situations, but I would also say that it is not a good idea to tell someone who has to ask a question like that, that it is ok to drop a tree that way, because he will start going half way into the tree on every tree, and sooner or later one will chair him. the correct answer often depends on who asked it.

Dragrcr, the computer seems to have screwed up the quotation credits.
Here is the original quote that initiated my question:

Nothing wrong with the first one, people who say so dont know what they are talking about.

the latter is a perfect example of what not to do, unless you have a specific application like small trees with no need for direction control..

If the tree had enough back lean, itd likely peel off the stump and come for you!

My question was a challenge to the statement that "nothing is wrong with the first one." Without specific details about the tree and its environment, I contend that there may be plenty wrong with the 50% notch in the first picture. On that point, I totally agree with you.

 

[Frank Boyer]

The second cut is a good way to get stabbed on the top of your foot. I was cutting a 3-4" tree with the salami cut and it came straight down at my foot.

 

[056kid]

The second cut is a good way to get stabbed on the top of your foot. I was cutting a 3-4" tree with the salami cut and it came straight down at my foot.

Sounds like you had good odds of lopping your leg off with the power saw as well.

For the tree to land near your foot ide think you where cutting straight toward yourself :0

 

[Frank Boyer]

I was cutting at over 90 degrees away from my body. The tree hung and came down. I was lucky and learned a valuable lesson. It was only 15-18' tall. Think at least twice and cut once.

 

[slowp]

Ok, it's acceptable sometimes. I've used the "salami" cut several times to get a hanger down. I hate it when people use it to cut 1" to 3" trees though. Just leaves a sharp stob to take out tires. A flatter cut is ok on those little saplings though. On anything of any size at all, no undercut is bad news in my book.

Andy

I'm sorry. But I have to contort so much to cut those little beasties that pungie sticks are left all over. Alder rots fast and is soft so shouldn't pop tires. Now a long time ago, I had to take a dive in a hurry and landed on a pungie stump. It didn't go through my pants, but left a colorful bruise. Owie.

 

[MCW]

My question was a challenge to the statement that "nothing is wrong with the first one." Without specific details about the tree and its environment, I contend that there may be plenty wrong with the 50% notch in the first picture. On that point, I totally agree with you.

I agree. I have used the 50% method a number of times (generally larger trees over 3' or small trees where you can basically push them over by hand - on a well balanced tree I've pushed them over by hand up to 3' diameter and maybe 100' tall)but this should never be recommended to newbies as OK 100% of the time. There are many sounds reasons for using the 1/3 method, particularly if cutting when windy or when you have gusting winds.
I tend to use varying depths on trees that have Elephant's Foot type trunks or bifurcated trunks depending on the shape of the trunk. 1/3 doesn't always work well on these trunk types but it is something to aim for.
That was a good video but there are few reasons to run away like he did and if he'd have fully committed and kept cutting that wouldn't have happened.
I only use the second method on smaller trees (<8") that can be physically pushed over as it is an efficient technique with only one cut, not three.

 

[056kid]

Very true, Running from a cracking tree is a bad thing to do unless its the last second..

 

[injun joe]

so much info on here. umm i have used the salami cut many a time and well it never falls i usually leave at least 3'' and it works just like a hinge and guide it in the direction i want it too. i have never seen a barberchair before i think these knot filled cottonwoods keep that from happening (not to say it will never happen). now i will definitely be more careful:greenchainsaw:

 

[woodyman]

can you notch a tree and have it go 50 % into the tree like so

if not why not?

i was also curious if you or have known people cut a tree down like this

My brother-in-law combines the two but then again he uses a Stihl.:hmm3grin2orange:

 

[2dogs]

My brother-in-law combines the two but then again he uses a Stihl.:hmm3grin2orange:

This actually a good point. Alot of people put in a sloping backcut thinking there is some advantage to doing so not realizing it is now nearly impossible to drive a wedge. Even if you can hit the wedge the leverage is all wrong. There is an instuctional video, I forget who made it, that actually advocates this style. I have seen it linked to here on ASA.

 

[bitzer]

This actually a good point. Alot of people put in a sloping backcut thinking there is some advantage to doing so not realizing it is now nearly impossible to drive a wedge. Even if you can hit the wedge the leverage is all wrong. There is an instuctional video, I forget who made it, that actually advocates this style. I have seen it linked to here on ASA.

I see a LOT of stumps that look like that and I don't get why they think it helps. I have also seen which way their trees fall. They are mostly farmers and weekend firewood getters that do it.

 

[MCW]

This actually a good point. Alot of people put in a sloping backcut thinking there is some advantage to doing so not realizing it is now nearly impossible to drive a wedge. Even if you can hit the wedge the leverage is all wrong. There is an instuctional video, I forget who made it, that actually advocates this style. I have seen it linked to here on ASA.

I see a LOT of stumps that look like that and I don't get why they think it helps. I have also seen which way their trees fall. They are mostly farmers and weekend firewood getters that do it.

I had to complete an advanced large tree felling course (basically Forestry qualifications)where the instructor was also an advocate of the sloping backcut. It is amazing just how many people think that this method gives directional control I told him what was what as his main experience with saws is in tree pruning with small saws. How he ever managed to get the appropriate certification to qualify me still has me stumped???
The biggest disadvantage to a sloping backcut is that instead of lifting the tree up the wedge is trying to push the tree forward - this can put excessive pressure on the hinge, snap it, and you can lose control of the tree.
The other problem can be excessive pressure on the back of the tree when driving in a wedge which can split the back and have the tree come over backwards.
All good fun

 

[Gypo Logger]

can you notch a tree and have it go 50 % into the tree like so

if not why not?

i was also curious if you or have known people cut a tree down like this

Injun Joe, I think you better pay a little bit more contention to your felling cuts!
I think you're dumber than a sack of hammers.
John

 

[056kid]

Nice splickery there Gyp..