Racing/High Octane/Aviation Fuel in Chainsaws?

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There are more myths and BS on this thread than I can keep up with. Which is typical when it comes to gasoline...
Yep this is exactly while I made this discussion. Because I need a solution. However I just bought this stuff here.
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_07189738000P
I paid $20.00 for it shipped to my front door. I bought a zero turn from them and got a crap ton of points. So I just redeemed them. I am going to get this stuff and hope for the best. Then I may personally call VP and get some pure gasoline sent here and mix it with the Ultra Stihl Oil next time. Because this stuff is rather expensive if you have to pay full price.
 
I got some of that premix stuff at a GTG for free here a few years ago. Spendy stuff. It ran good though. In a place like you live, I would certainly look for an alternative to what is available.
 
I got some of that premix stuff at a GTG for free here a few years ago. Spendy stuff. It ran good though. In a place like you live, I would certainly look for an alternative to what is available.
Yeah definitely some other gentleman posted here and told me to look into a specific type of VP that is free of Ethanol. I can't remember who it was but if this works out I will probably try to order some of that stuff. It sounded pretty good because it is pure gasoline and you can add Stihl's own recommended oil. So that might be the way to do.

I just hope this stuff runs good. The octane rating is still a little high for what mine calls for but I think it will be fine as long as this is quality stuff.
 
Well, you can always lower the octane by mixing it with your E0 regular there. Of course, who knows what else is in that gas... before E10 hit this state gas quality was all over the map. Also CA had that MTBE crap in their gas that has since been banned nationally.
 
I would like to hear more on additives like mechanic in a bottle. We can't always choose what gas we can buy and can we always trust that the premium is what they say it is. I agree with getting the freshest gas. But what additives are best to keep it going? What about the ethanol treatments? Do they help? What about synthetic oils? Several threads say that is the best and it is what I try to ge
 
Yeah definitely some other gentleman posted here and told me to look into a specific type of VP that is free of Ethanol. I can't remember who it was but if this works out I will probably try to order some of that stuff. It sounded pretty good because it is pure gasoline and you can add Stihl's own recommended oil. So that might be the way to do.

I just hope this stuff runs good. The octane rating is still a little high for what mine calls for but I think it will be fine as long as this is quality stuff.
I think that was me and the fuel was VP T4.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I think that was me and the fuel was VP T4.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Okay thanks KenJax. After I run out of above said stuff that is on the way I will call VP Customer Service (which is great Customer Service by the way) and see if I can order some of that stuff. Then I will mix in the recommended Stihl HP Ultra Synthetic Oil and hopefully be able to go on with my life. For the record I knew that there was going to be a lot of different advice. So I knew from the beginning that (no offense) I would have to pick and choose what I thought was good advice from bad advice. I appreciate everyone's help and input here. I just think if this VP Racing Fuel works out it is going to be the way to go from now on.
 
So I knew from the beginning that (no offense) I would have to pick and choose what I thought was good advice from bad advice. I appreciate everyone's help and input here.

Okay, sorry about my suggestion to use av-gas. It was obviously "bad advice" according to you...although well intended.
I think I'll keep using av-gas, though. After ten years of constant use in a professional setting and no gas-related saw problems I don't see any need to switch. It's not the answer for everybody but I've had excellent service from it.
Good luck with your canned gas.
 
Okay, sorry about my suggestion to use av-gas. It was obviously "bad advice" according to you...although well intended.
I think I'll keep using av-gas, though. After ten years of constant use in a professional setting and no gas-related saw problems I don't see any need to switch. It's not the answer for everybody but I've had excellent service from it.
Good luck with your canned gas.

I never said your idea was bad. Actually if the VP Racing Fuel doesn't work the next thing I will look is AV-Gas as you are not the only one that has recommended it. The only reason I was asking a lot of questions about actual Racing Gas is because we have a Raceway not far from where I live. So that would definitely be an option. However I know there is a small public and military use airport near me as well. Whether they will let me buy fuel from them I don't know. Someone told me before that going to some Air Ports to buy a few gallons of their fuel will get you laughed off their property.
 
However I know there is a small public and military use airport near me as well. Whether they will let me buy fuel from them I don't know. Someone told me before that going to some Air Ports to buy a few gallons of their fuel will get you laughed off their property.
I can see it in the newspaper now. "Local Arborist drives forty-five minutes to buy AV-Gas to run in equipment, airport personnel take it as a joke, Arborist strangles multiple airport personnel before pumping five gallons of AV-Gas into container leaving, and later being shot on site for having dangerous weapon (chainsaw) in hands".
 
My apologies for the following opinionated offensive post. Stock chainsaws are not fancy animals. Giving them fancy gas and exotic additives is strictly for the saws owner, not the saw. If I remember correctly, mastermind runs and tunes all his ported saws on 87 octane with no problems. Chadiham tested different fuel on his chainsaw dyno and found (not surprisingly) that regular produced the most power. Modern saw components are designed to see 10% ethanol. The only real issue with E10 is you can't let it sit around exposed to air (but you really shouldn't do that with efree either). Fresh pump gas properly mixed with quality synthetic oil will make your saw happy.
I really wish people wouldn't use the aviation gas. Lead is **** for the environment and our bodies. No saws are designed to run on it, and although nothing bad will happen to the saw if you use it, it will make less power.
My apologies, HS out
 
what problems are people having with ethonol in the gas ? i think it says 10% on the pumps i get it at ,saws cut wood fine with it ,i store the saws with fuel ,rubber parts are fine too
 
My apologies for the following opinionated offensive post. Stock chainsaws are not fancy animals. Giving them fancy gas and exotic additives is strictly for the saws owner, not the saw. If I remember correctly, mastermind runs and tunes all his ported saws on 87 octane with no problems. Chadiham tested different fuel on his chainsaw dyno and found (not surprisingly) that regular produced the most power. Modern saw components are designed to see 10% ethanol. The only real issue with E10 is you can't let it sit around exposed to air (but you really shouldn't do that with efree either). Fresh pump gas properly mixed with quality synthetic oil will make your saw happy.
I really wish people wouldn't use the aviation gas. Lead is **** for the environment and our bodies. No saws are designed to run on it, and although nothing bad will happen to the saw if you use it, it will make less power.
My apologies, HS out
what problems are people having with ethonol in the gas ? i think it says 10% on the pumps i get it at ,saws cut wood fine with it ,i store the saws with fuel ,rubber parts are fine too

I have heard several times over that as long as you are getting fresh gas (and know it) you can use the Ethanol. Most of our country only uses 10% or at least that is what they advertise. It is just the problem that you can not let the Ethanol sit around in your saw. The "Fancy Stuff" I just bought is ethanol free and is premixed with gas, oil, and stabilizer. So I can let it sit for as long as I want. So if I am out cutting a lot I will probably just buy normal old gas for know as long as I know I am using it. Then if I think things are slowly down I am going to use the premixed stuff I just bought when things start slowing down. So that I have very good premium fuel in the tank and hoses when I got back to use the saw.

I have never done any dyno nor any power test on saws but my saw is definitely more responsive when I use MotoMix or 94 Octane in it. All I know is you are not suppose to use Ethanol in any of the smaller engines under any circumstances and they tell you that it voids your warranty if you do. Chadiham would not be using the 87 Ethanol free stuff you buy around here either. It sits forever without anyone using it so it is garbage by the time you pump it.

Anyway it was just like I said before you do not know how old gas is so you are better off getting it from a gas station that gets a lot of action at the pumps. Because I was told this gas goes bad in almost exactly three-four months. Now you have to add in the time that it sits before it is added into the truck for transport, then how long it stays in that truck, then how long it stays in the tank where you are going to buy it. So buy the time you get your fuel and get it home you could be looking at fuel that you only have a month to use or possibly less. Therefore the answer to this is to just not use anything else other than Ethanol free.

By the way if I understand this right storing your small engine equipment with Ethanol in it is the worse thing you can do. I think because it holds water after awhile? So even though you start it I guess you are forcing your saw to burn a little moisture.
 
That is just the way I understand it. I am the guy that made this post here asking for information. I also found a few answers as well. Just like I said before my saw calls for a octane rating of 89 that is Ethanol Free mixed 50:1 with oil and gas. I also think this goes for every small engine Stihl makes. Now the problem is finding 89 that is free of Ethanol that is fresh.
 
A general reply to lots of posts in this thread:

Ethanol in marine 2-stroke engines here in the PNW has caused all kinds of problems. Also if you get any water in ethanol gas, it will mix wit the ethanol and phase separate, whereas in E0 gas the water just goes to the bottom. Ethanol will also extract a lot more water from the air around it, whereas gas will not. Ethanol is also harder on rubber parts and aluminum engines. Give it time, or use it in an engine not designed for it and it will be worse. I avoid E10 in my 2-strokes if I can, but by all means, use it if you like it. 10% ethanol in gas is the maximum that any saw company will warranty though.

As for Mastermind running regular gas (if that is indeed the case) I believe that is a huge mistake, especially given the fact that he increases the compression on his saws with his cut squish mods and he commonly advances the ignition timing. The reason they came up with supreme gas was to avoid detonation/pre-ignition/ping/knock/flaring in higher compression gasoline engines, as well as running engines at high altitudes (which is why AvGas is still used in airplanes). Increasing the compression in a saw will (not might, it simply will) increase the likelihood of detonation. Detonation will cause pitting damage around the squish band of the piston and cylinder, and uneven flaring can and will cause uneven down-pressure on pistons and cause them to tilt slightly. That can cause piston skirt and cylinder scuffing, or a ring catching a port. Maybe a dyno does not care about detonation, but your saw and your wallet eventually will. If you wanna run regular in your ported and modified saws, go ahead. Not in my stock or modified saws though, thanks.

Most all 'good' chainsaws are designed to run mid-grade 89 octane gas (not talking Chicom here). Octane starts to drop as soon as it leaves the refinery. By it has reached the gas station mid grade gas is likely down to 87, and by the time you put it into a gas can and store it for a while, it will be down to 85 or even less. Add premix oil at 50:1 and the octane drops another 2 points, or 3-4 points if you run oil at 32:1 So now you are down to 83 octane or less. Give it time and the octane will sink farther into the 70s to the point where it becomes bad gas. That is where the gas starts to flare and detonate badly and does damage to the engine. For that reason I add stabilizer to my gas. Stabilizers like StaBil and SeaFoam will keep octane as high as when you added it to the gas for up to 2 years. It cannot boost old gas octane though. Stabilizers will also help keep the ethanol in E10 gas from phase separating, but only to a point. So I add StaBil red formula to my E0 premium gas right at the station when I fill the gas jugs. My ex insists that regular untreated gas is fine for her saws, because the county work crews use it in their saws. I prefer not to sink to the level of the government myself.

Now there is the case of the opposite here, using LL100 or AvGas. There are several issues with this gas, one being the lead in there. The oil companies originally dumped lead into gas as a cheap way to raise octane, and they made a lot of money off if it. They knew it was highly toxic, and there were many deaths at refineries over the years as a result. Large companies are greedy though, and have no regard for human life. Just look at GM's decision to not replace a 59 cent spring in their ignition systems. At any rate, TEL is highly toxic. Lead smells good and tastes sweet, which is a bane to humans, because it causes havoc with your nervous system. Breathing lead fumes will affect your brain and lower your IQ, lower your motor function, and diminish your senses. The reason they banned lead in auto gas was the fact that the LA CHP officers had an average of half the lethal levels of lead in their bloodstream. The average American had 2-10% of the lethal lead levels in their bloodstream. Since banning it, the bloodstream lead levels have all gone way down, and the relative heath of the average American has gone up as a result. You would be well advised not to run leaded gas where you breathe the fumes. The other thing about lead in the gas is that it can foul your low end bearings, as well as your spark plugs. While lead was used as a lubricant in the valve train in pushrod engines, saws are designed to run lead free gas where the added lubricant qualities of lead are not desirable. The other issue with Avgas is the high octane. If you run a saw at high altitude this may well be an advantage, as altitude is another cause of pre-ignition. However, using a premium grade unleaded auto gas would likely be as effective in preventing pre-ignition at altitudes up to 10k feet. If you do use Avgas, please do not run it on my property or near me.
 
We'd need mastermind to comment, but if I am remembering right, he has never had a detonation issue. Obviously extra octane will give you a safety margin. There is very little chance higher octane will improve a saws performance. Saws have fixed ignition (more or less). They don't have a knock sensor to retard or advance timing in response to the combustion chamber dynamics. Applying 4 stroke logic with regards to compression, detonation, flame front propagation etc cannot be linearly extrapolated to a two stroke. That being said, I typically buy 93 e10 (ethanol free is not readily available), put in stabil and h1r and put it in trufuel cans. Stored air tight it has caused me no problems. One of my saws has 230psi compression and a 7 degree timing advance, and was tuned and run by the builder on 89 octane with no issues. The 150psi ms290 should be just fine.


All STIHL gasoline-powered engines can be used with up to a 10% (E10) blend of ethanol in the gasoline/engine oil mix. We also recommend that if a unit will be left unused for more than 30 days that it be stored "dry." This means emptying the fuel tank and then restarting and letting the unit run until all the fuel is consumed and the engine stops. For maximum performance and engine life expectancy we also recommend using STIHL Ultra 2-cycle engine oil with built-in stabilizer.

From the Stihl USA website
 
As for some other stuff posted in this thread:

Please do not use Colman fuel in your saw. That is raw gas without any octane additives in it. The octane of that stuff is about 60 at best. It will cause pre-ignition and most certainly cause damage to your saw, your lawn mower, your car, or whatever you run it in. Maybe your neighbor says it is great stuff and runs it in his or her lawn mower, but that is ill advised.

As for other additives like Marvel Mystery oil and other stuff, the people on web sites like PureGas and the like recommend against it. Most do not recommend any gas additives, other than stabilizer and only if the gas is going to be stored for a period of time. Some premix 2-stroke oils have stabilizers in it, but most do not.

As for dynos running saws better with regular, I believe that is erroneous data due to the many variables involved. You would have to be precise as to what gas your are comparing, how old it is, the type and the actual octane in the gas used, and things like the compression and timing advance in the saws tested. Most data that I have read over the years shows that premium gas has slightly more energy than regular and mid grade gas. Ethanol actually has 60% of the energy of pure gasoline, so E10 has 4% less energy than E0 does. Comparatively, the same type of gasoline (E0, E10, E85) will have the same energy to within 2%, regardless of grade. Premium gas is typically thought to have more energy because higher compression and turbocharged engines have more power, but they get their energy from wasted heat energy or from using more gas, with a higher compression engine and a greater timing advance in the ignition.

E10 is a variable and defined differently in most states, and is up to 10% ethanol. In many places E10 is actually 6% ethanol, which was the blend for urban area winter grade gas before E10 became mandated. 6% ethanol is the rate that it is effective for oxygenating gasoline to reduce smog levels. In California MTBE was used for the same reason, but that has since been outlawed because it leaks from gas tanks and contaminated ground water. Because ethanol has less energy it used less oxygen, and in the combustion process it frees up more oxygen, E10 blends will run leaner than pure gasoline. So if you switch between gas types, you will want to re-tune your carbs on your saws, or get an autotune or Mtronic saw that will compensate for different gas used. Which is similar to going up and down in elevation, every 3,000 ft drop is a 10% gain in oxygen. So re-tune your saws if you change more than 1500 ft in elevation since it was tuned.

OK, I am sure people will scream about these two posts now, which is why I avoided posting them. Gas and oil thread have been debated here for eternity, and likely will continue to be. In the end, its whatever floats your boat. Its your saw. Run what you like. My perspective on this is my background being an engineer and studying a lot of energy production systems over the years. I have also been a grease monkey and rebuilt, raced and run a lot of different types if internal combustion engines over the years.
 
I know a lot of people that log for a living ,i do not think many of them think this hard about the fuel in their saws ,stihl mix and pump gas seems to keep them going for many years
 
Yah well, this is AS where we argue about anything and everything.

Also if you talk to guys that tear these engines down all the time, they tell another story. Just do a search on Lakeside Andy's posts here on AS about saws and gas and oil used in them. He has posted many times about seeing lots of detonation damage in saws running regular. He also says that any kind of dyno oil in the premix will lead to low ends gunking up.
 
I can see it in the newspaper now. "Local Arborist drives forty-five minutes to buy AV-Gas to run in equipment, airport personnel take it as a joke, Arborist strangles multiple airport personnel before pumping five gallons of AV-Gas into container leaving, and later being shot on site for having dangerous weapon (chainsaw) in hands".

:laugh:...You might be right. It could happen. The only airport that ever told me no about buying av-gas was Sacramento International and that was probably because they have the usual big-city airport security thing going on.
The smaller airports, especially the little one-runway mom and pop FBOs will probably be more than glad to sell you as much as you want. Our local airport, and most of them in a fifty mile radius, have self serve pumps, 24 hour access, and a card swipe just like a regular gas station. Most of them have video surveillance but that's common.
The pump might ask you for an N number but anything you enter will be fine. I've used a string of zeros or the N number from a Stearman that was wrecked twenty years ago and never heard anything about it. So far anyway.

I wasn't knocking your choice of fuels. For the occasional user canned gas might be a good way to go. I just got tired of the pump gas variance in octane, E content, and the resulting performance problems. Like I said, av-gas isn't for everyone but it solved a lot of problems for me and I've had darn good luck with it. I can't get away with buying and mixing a gallon at a time. I usually keep a 55 gallon drum full of 100LL and do my mixing in five gallon cans. The only 1 gallon containers are the ones I pack with me in the woods. I have to go with what I already know will work. We have neither the time nor the inclination for experimenting. LOL...you guys can do the testing, we'll stick with our old fashioned ways.

And for HuskStihl and Windthrown...two extremely accomplished guys that I respect very much, as should most people...I'll try to stay downwind of you when I'm cutting. And I'll try real hard to resist the impulse to get my face down in front of the muffler and inhale deeply. That's what Winstons are for.
And as far as lead's effect on mental acuity...the same symptoms show up in old people. I'm not saying you guys aren't right about lead being harmful. It's just that after fifty years of breathing saw exhaust and over six thousand hours of sitting behind radial engines I believe my fading mental and physical abilities might have a few natural causes. Like being old. :laugh:
 

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