Safety vs bar length?

[jeraldjunkmail]

Hi, I am new to chainsaws (still haven't bought my own yet), and am still researching. Is it safer or less safe, physics wise, to have a longer, or shorter bar as it relates to kickback. I am thinking of getting an Echo cs-500p, which has 3.6hp.... So is there any difference safety-wise between running a short, 14" bar vs running a longer 20" bar on this saw?

Thanks!

 

[Chainsaw Jim]

You should get the longest bar available for your saw. Shorter bars equal more torque and chain speed in wood and it's easier for you to bump the tip into something that will kick it back. A longer bar won't get away from you as quick, and its extra weight will help keep the saw pointed in the right direction but will also introduce your lower legs and feet to the danger zone.

 

[CoreyB]

Hi, I am new to chainsaws (still haven't bought my own yet), and am still researching. Is it safer or less safe, physics wise, to have a longer, or shorter bar as it relates to kickback. I am thinking of getting an Echo cs-500p, which has 3.6hp.... So is there any difference safety-wise between running a short, 14" bar vs running a longer 20" bar on this saw?

Thanks!

I am a firm believer in not using a saw bigger then necessary.
The only time I use a longer bar is on larger wood. Some people use a longer bar for limbing so they don't have to bend over.
I would run a 16 or 18" on a echo 500.

 

[Chainsaw Jim]

I am a firm believer in not using a saw bigger then necessary.
The only time I use a longer bar is on larger wood. Some people use a longer bar for limbing so they don't have to bend over.
I would run a 16 or 18" on a echo 500.

Why is this your belief? He's looking for technical info, and opinion or belief without further explanation just begs for more questions. If there are safety advantages for using a 16" bar on a 50cc saw then I'm also interested in the info.

 

[Chris-PA]

I don't think the bar length differences for practical bars you're likely to put on that saw will make much difference in kick back potential. You're probably looking at somewhere from 16" to 20" and any of those can get you in trouble. It's just part of using a saw and you need to take it into consideration, but the length of the bar in that range isn't going to be a big differentiator.

 

[lone wolf]

Longer bars are more tiring , clumsy and nose heavy, not the safest choice , a mid size bar is best prob what came with the saw.

 

[CR888]

^^^Spot on! looking for best answer button?

 

[ChoppyChoppy]

I like a shorter bar. My friend runs 26-34"ish bars and I find it takes alot more oUT of me to run his saws.

Around here an 18-20" bar is plenty for 95% of the trees.

 

[lone wolf]

I like a shorter bar. My friend runs 26-34"ish bars and I find it takes alot more oUT of me to run his saws.

Not to mention sharpening them

 

[ChoppyChoppy]

Not to mention sharpening them

True, and cost of bars and chains too.

I keep a longer bar handy "in case". Haven't needed it in a few years.

 

[jeraldjunkmail]

Thanks for the replies! I will be cutting small (under 18") trees all summer to cut and sell firewood. Even a 14" bar would be fine for the most part. But doesn't that mean a faster spinning chain? And does that mean a greater kickback strength? What about bar length and controlling kickback if it happens?

I am a firm believer in safety gear. I also ride bikes, so the good habits there cross over to other areas...

I bought a Granberg 12v bar jig/file... Sharpening won't be an issue...

 

[lone wolf]

True, and cost of bars and chains too.

I keep a longer bar handy "in case". Haven't needed it in a few years.

I like the shortest bar and chain for the job they always seem to cut better. The longer the more it will pull to one side if not filed absolutely perfect.

 

[computeruser]

Hi, I am new to chainsaws (still haven't bought my own yet), and am still researching.

Welcome to the site! Read a lot here, and on a couple of the other reputable forums, and watch some good videos on YouTube to get a sense of how to do things and how not to do things. The chainsaw videos from Husqvarna are very good introductory instructional video:

Is it safer or less safe, physics wise, to have a longer, or shorter bar as it relates to kickback.

I think that the leverage effect of a longer bar acting on the operator is going to be a bigger issue than any minor increase in chain speed on a shorter one.

I am thinking of getting an Echo cs-500p, which has 3.6hp....

A good saw from what everybody has said. I have never run one, though I have handled one at the store. I think that this saw would be best with a 16" bar, .325" pitch chain. It has been my experience that a 3:1 ratio of engine cc to bar length in inches hits a sweet spot for most saws, particularly in hardwood. Make sure you learn how to sharpen a chain and how to operate safely. Having a sharp chain and using good technique is ultimately far more important than the particular saw you are running.

So is there any difference safety-wise between running a short, 14" bar vs running a longer 20" bar on this saw?

I think there is a solid case to be made for running short bars on relatively powerful powerheads for most purposes. First, practically, you have less chance of sticking your bar tip into things you don't want to hit. Dirt, other logs, all of this is easier to prevent with a shorter bar. Second, it forces you to think and plan your cuts, especially in larger wood (e.g. felling a tree with a diameter 2x the length of your bar), which forces you to learn how wood acts under tension, compression, and or with torsional forces acting on it. Third, because you are less likely to end up hitting things you don't want to hit, such as dirt or other crap, you will find yourself needing to sharpen your chains less often. A dull chain is itself a safety hazard and must be avoided. And lastly, the short bar weighs less, and less weight means less fatigue means safer operation for longer periods of time.

I am a huge fan of 40-50cc saws with short bars. 13" .325" is my standard setup, but occasionally a 16" bar sneaks in there. This makes one saw equally suitable for trimming, thinning, firewood, falling, limbing, and cutting logs to length. The only thing it is not good at, where the shorter bar makes work go slower, is in blocking up large logs into firewood, where you are making the exact same cut over and over every 16" along the log. For that, a bigger saw with more power and a longer bar is called for if speed of production is your goal.

Here are a couple pretty pictures of my current and past work saws. Some are stock, some are ported, all are light and nimble in ways that the same saw with a longer 18-20" bar would not be.

Thanks!

Quite welcome!

 

[old guy]

The faster the chain speed the less chance of kickback as the chain at the tip of the bar will cut whatever it touches instead of hooking and kicking back unless it's not made of wood.
Best thing is to learn to stay away from kickback situations, I don't remember my last kickback.

John

 

[Backyard Lumberjack]

Thanks for the replies! I will be cutting small (under 18") trees all summer to cut and sell firewood. Even a 14" bar would be fine for the most part. But doesn't that mean a faster spinning chain? And does that mean a greater kickback strength? What about bar length and controlling kickback if it happens?

I am a firm believer in safety gear. I also ride bikes, so the good habits there cross over to other areas...

I bought a Granberg 12v bar jig/file... Sharpening won't be an issue...

>I am a firm believer in safety gear.

me, too... I do like my chaps... and if off my property... wear a safety vest and I just did a full service to my shielded muffed hard hat... use boots and gloves, too. and also a 2nd pair of ear plugs...

 

[Backyard Lumberjack]

also buy or check out of your local public library:

Homeowner's Complete Guide to the Chainsaw

http://www.amazon.com/Homeowners-Complete-Guide-Chainsaw-Confidently/dp/1565233565

 

[OldJack]

The faster the chain speed the less chance of kickback as the chain at the tip of the bar will cut whatever it touches instead of hooking and kicking back unless it's not made of wood.
John

This explains why you don't start a cut at half throttle or less. Slow chains grab and kick back. Just back off a bit from WOT (wide open throttle) before you touch wood as max no load revs really don't help the engine.

 

[Philbert]

Welcome to A.S.!

The ANSI standard on low kickback bars and chains focuses on smaller displacement saws, as these are more likely to be used by less experienced users. I have spoken to a member of the committee about this, and he confirmed that all of the kickback reducing features used on smaller saws have a similar benefit on larger saws, but they are not tested. You can ponder about the effects of bar length, bar nose radius, saw power and chain speed, etc. But the ANSI standard relies on performance testing - either a bar and chain combination passes, or it does not.

Preventing kickback requires a multi-tiered approach. Low kickback bars and chains help. Running sharp chain at full speed before approaching the wood, as Old Guy notes, helps. Awareness of where your bar tip is at all times helps. Kickback is just one of the reactionary forces your saw can throw at you: 'push-back' and 'pull-in' can also ruin your day.

(STIHL manual)

Every saw has a 'sweet spot' in my opinion. There is a combination of: powerhead; bar length; chain pitch; and sprocket size that just balances and cuts really well. This may vary a little bit with the type and size of wood you are cutting. A heavy bar might be beneficial for bucking logs on the ground, and a lighter bar better for limbing standing trees. If you are not sure, and don't have the opportunity to try them out, a good starting point is what the manufacturer offers as 'standard' bar lengths.

Even a 14" bar would be fine for the most part. But doesn't that mean a faster spinning chain?

No. Chain speed (feet/second) is determined by the size/tooth count of the drive sprocket. Think of how the sprockets on the crank of a bicycle work: more teeth = faster chain speed, but less torque; fewer teeth = slower chain speed, but more torque. It has nothing to do with the length of the chain.

Many guys suggest getting the largest bar that your saw is designed to pull, so that you have the option of cutting larger diameter logs when needed. You don't have to use the whole bar when cutting smaller stuff. There is also no rule that says you can't have more than one bar. For example, I have a 16 inch bar and a 20 inch bar for one of my saws, and appropriate chains for each, that I can swap back and forth.

Philbert

 

[CascadeHusky]

One bit of advice...at some point use the top of the tip of your bar, in a controlled manner.

Try to bore with some skip chain. It is important that you get a feel for what kickback is, and how to hold the saw to control it. This isn't to say that feeling some mild kickback makes you immune.

You mention that you are a believer in safety gear. Good, but if you wearing safety makes you take more risks, then it probably isn't making you safer.

 

[wde_1978]

Until I bought my Dolmar PS-6400 I was exclusively used to the behavior of my little Sachs-Dolmar 105 which is a 40cc/1.7kW/2.1HP/TopHandle/14" 3/8" LowProfile saw.

The first kickback I encountered with my then new to me 4.7HP saw I nearly $hat my pants.
It was a painful straight backwards push placing the rear handle directly into my left upper thigh and I must say I did not expect that amount of force exerted from the saw.
Other than a bruise I encountered no injuries, just got a good scare - and learned to respect my big saw.
The saw pushed back with all her strength because the upper side of the chain got pinched while bucking firewood logs - in that case the bar length wouldn't have mattered at all.

The way I see it recommendations are a mixed bag of nuts:
- a short bar will potentially give the operator more control over the saw (*1), but also bring him closer to the danger zone (*2)
- a longer bar will move the danger zone further away from the operator (*2), but reduce control as the leverage increases proportionally (*1). Also a longer bar will/can be more tiring over time, which is a matter of perception of the specific operator.

(*1) - Control and leverage centers around the pivoting point of the saws power head and the bar. The longer the bar (up to a certain point) the more force is introduced to the counter acting pivoting power head in case of a kickback potentially causing the saws rear handle to rip out of the operator hand allowing a uncontrolled rotation around the front handle - at which case the hopefully fully functional chain brake kicks in!
(*2) - With a shorter bar the operator is closer to the bars tip and working area. A longer bar places the operator further away from the bars tip and working area which is only a portion of the danger zone. It is not exclusively the bar tip that is dangerous, but rather the entire length of the upper bars side!

Considering You mention 14" up to 20", something in the middle might be a good choice.
Why not go with 16" or 18" depending on what You intend to cut.
Also, as @Philbert suggested , You could go both ways 14" + 20" setups - I have 20" + 36" for my big girl the PS-7900.

Whatever You chose to go with use Your saw with respect and don't ever assume You're completely safe.

Good luck in purchasing Your saw!

DISCLAIMER:
The above is strictly my understanding of the matter in question and is not to be taken as a proven fact!
The above text was written at my own best knowledge and understanding but is not excluded of scientifically and/or practically wrong information - one learns as long as one is alive!
Any misinformation is unintended!
Everybody is free to either agree or disagree on the above text, please do so without insults or fights!