Screws in Trees

[Trailmender]

Hello all,
I make trails as a volunteer for a land trust in southern New England. I have used 1 1/2 inch galvanized screws to affix 1/4 inch thick plastic tiles to trail-side trees as blazes to keep hikers on path. The plastic is very tough. The screw would have to be completely removed to remove the blaze. So, question is: Should I be using aluminum screws? Concern is the remote possibility the tree may one day be subject to a chainsaw or saw mill saw. I've heard aluminum screws are less likely to badly damage saws. Aluminum screws, however, are incredibly expensive and 400-500 may be needed to do one trail. Any thoughts?
Blaze painting isn't a viable option for us.
Thanks for any insight.

 

[2dogs]

Try looking on ebay aluminum or stainless screws. You may find small quantities of very expensive screws for a very good price.

 

[Mad Professor]

Use paint

 

[cookies]

I would say use posts for your signs since screws and nails are not exactly healthy for the trees esp coated with zinc. 1.5-2" aluminum siding nails are pretty darn cheap

 

[EchoRomeoCharlie]

Install posts, or use zip ties to affix signs to trees.

 

[slowp]

Aluminum is good. We used/use aluminum nails to put tags on trees when the tags need to last. You might want to not screw the screw in all the way. For our plots, we left about half and inch of nail sticking out so the tree had room to grow and wouldn't eat the nail. Some of the plots did get clearcut.

I take it that you are using screws in order to slow down thieves/collectors? Otherwise, nails might be cheaper.

 

[northmanlogging]

Hello all,
I make trails as a volunteer for a land trust in southern New England. I have used 1 1/2 inch galvanized screws to affix 1/4 inch thick plastic tiles to trail-side trees as blazes to keep hikers on path. The plastic is very tough. The screw would have to be completely removed to remove the blaze. So, question is: Should I be using aluminum screws? Concern is the remote possibility the tree may one day be subject to a chainsaw or saw mill saw. I've heard aluminum screws are less likely to badly damage saws. Aluminum screws, however, are incredibly expensive and 400-500 may be needed to do one trail. Any thoughts?
Blaze painting isn't a viable option for us.
Thanks for any insight.

I'm against putting any metal in trees, as it will cause the log to be rejected, be it aluminium, steel or a gold rail road spike.

So I would suggest T posts and proper signage instead, I know its more expensive, but it will arguably last longer then anything nailed to a living organism.

 

[Dudders]

Never, never, never attach any metal to any tree for any reason. There's always another way, as northmanlogging has said. What sort of 'land trust' is it that could think of doing such a thing?

Metal in trees is so destructive - it ruins the timber, ruins chainsaw chains and sawmill blades and kills people.

I really hope you find a better method.

 

[slowp]

Never, never, never attach any metal to any tree for any reason. There's always another way, as northmanlogging has said. What sort of 'land trust' is it that could think of doing such a thing?

Metal in trees is so destructive - it ruins the timber, ruins chainsaw chains and sawmill blades and kills people.

I really hope you find a better method.

Really?

We measured inventory plots one summer. Every ten years the plots are revisited. We retagged the trees with metal tags using aluminum nails to hold the tags. We then put another nail where we measured the diameter so we could be accurately checked. Aluminum was used because it is soft and would not harm anyone. Plus, I imagine they could be easily yanked out. I am sure some of the plots were logged as when we were visiting them, several were pretty easy to do as the trees had become stumps. Maybe chains were tougher then?

What I think is going on is that the OP is trying to mark a trail with plastic tags instead of blazing (using an axe to cut the bark in a patch) and needs to attach the tags to the trees. Posts and such are simply not feasible. Paint fades. I'd also guess that any screws put into the trees would be pretty easy to find if the area were to be logged, but if it is anything like in this part of the country, that wouldn't be likely. We're talking about trees along a trail and marking that trail. Not everybody has a Used Dog that can find a trail beneath the deep snow.

 

[GrizG]

Never, never, never attach any metal to any tree for any reason. There's always another way, as northmanlogging has said. What sort of 'land trust' is it that could think of doing such a thing?

Metal in trees is so destructive - it ruins the timber, ruins chainsaw chains and sawmill blades and kills people.

I really hope you find a better method.

Around here it is common for land trusts and state DEC to mark trails with plastic (formerly metal) tags of various colors that are nailed to trees. Off hand I cannot think of any of those properties that will ever be logged... Many are on lands that the state constitution has flagged as forever wild. Some recent land trust acquisitions have habitat management provisions in the contracts (vs. forever wild) and it is a given that trails will be freed of fallen and hazard trees... Those two situations are about the only time any tree cutting will occur. Most of those properties were former industrial sites or farmlands (e.g., rail roads, quarries, subsistence farms from the 19th and early 20th century). As a result of their past I anticipate running into metal occasionally while cutting... Fencing, fence staples, nails, j-hooks, gate hardware, iron pipes... I've hit them all.

 

[Bearcreek]

I've heard aluminum screws are less likely to badly damage saws. Aluminum screws, however, are incredibly expensive and 400-500 may be needed to do one trail. Any thoughts?

Use aluminum siding nails, there's no reason to bother with screws for that. Easier to carry a hammer than a drill or driver when marking trails anyway. You are correct about aluminum being easier on chains and blades. Not sure where the one poster is getting his very dramatic assessment of the hazards of metal in trees. No need to worry about killing anyone with your trail markers. Try to be selective about what trees they get nailed to, and put them on low value, crooked, forked, low market value species etc. whenever possible.

 

[northmanlogging]

Use aluminum siding nails, there's no reason to bother with screws for that. Easier to carry a hammer than a drill or driver when marking trails anyway. You are correct about aluminum being easier on chains and blades. Not sure where the one poster is getting his very dramatic assessment of the hazards of metal in trees. No need to worry about killing anyone with your trail markers. Try to be selective about what trees they get nailed to, and put them on low value, crooked, forked, low market value species etc. whenever possible.

^^ ok, this is a good compromise.

To clarify my sole concern is value of the lumber, loggers are generally kinda dumb and if not actually dumb preoccupied with not being dead, so we might not see a tiny wittle nail that is 3" under the bark by the time we get to it, but the metal detector will, and that log will then be rejected ad hoc.

Is aluminum safer then steel yes, do the mills care, not at all. The utter randomness of crap my poor saws have found in stumps is astounding, T posts, files, digging bars, barbed wire, 1/2" cable... and yet... I'm not dead? how could this be? if certainly ****s up a chain, and it will really **** up a band mill or a circular mill might explode, which is why mill have metal detectors so this sort of thing is avoidable.

 

[pdqdl]

The OP never really told us what kind of sign was being posted.

zip ties were mentioned, but sisal twine would be even better. Any kind of naturally decomposing fiber would be ok.

You could also drill holes and pound a tapered wooden pin into the sign & tree. A "natural" sort of nail, if you prefer. Obviously, that would come at greater expense and difficulty.

 

[Dudders]

Sorry if my rant seems excessive, but I feel it should just be standard procedure to find other ways of marking paths. I've had so many chains hit so many pieces of metal in so many pieces of wood that I've learned not to do that, and it's just not practical to have to use a detector every time you cut, which often won't reveal deeply-embedded metal anyway. People have been killed by kickback in, obviously very rare, situations when metal has been encountered by the saw, especially when it's chicken-wire.
I would question the need to mark the footpath with hundreds of plastic signs anyway. Is it really necessary? I'd suggest maybe just making the path itself clear and not fretting about keeping hikers on the straight and narrow. I've walked very many trails in BC and Alberta and don't remember any plastic signs used there. Perhaps the OP should consult with National Parks, see what they do?

 

[UncleBeep]

This was the 1st cut in a brand new chain last week. Does there become a point where the metal is so rusted that it doesn't hurt the chain?

 

[Del_]

Hex head aluminum screws may be a good option.

If the signs are maintained, and I know that is asking a lot, the screws could possibly be turned out a little bit each year as needed. It may prolong sign life and reduce the amount of aluminum left in the trees.

Shooting from the hip here.

 

[pdqdl]

Nail 'em in with wood dowels. Never a problem.

Sign will fall off with time, probably about the same time it needs maintenance anyway.

 

[slowp]

Nail 'em in with wood dowels. Never a problem.

Sign will fall off with time, probably about the same time it needs maintenance anyway.

Uhhh, no. There are "signs" on the Pacific Crest Trail that are partly grown into the tree. Google it and look at the pictures. I've hiked bits of that trail and others. The older tags were metal and the trees are healing around them. Most of the other trails and the PCT have old blazes. The PCT is turning into a highway, so tags are kind of moot except at junctions or once in a while to assure folks that they are on the PCT.

Trail maintenance is best done annually in this part of the country. Trees fall over, tread washes out, rocks fall, bridges wash out, and brush grows in.

Trails here are numerous on National Forest Land along with Olympic, North Cascades, and Mt Rainier National Parks. Don't confuse the two. In National Forest Wilderness, where there are a hell of a lot of trails to maintain, chainsaws are forbidden, unless approved by a very higher up person and that is seldom done. Crews use crosscut saws to log out trails. National Parks do allow chainsaws in their wilderness to be used for maintenance, but that might not be everywhere.

On non wilderness trails, chainsaws can be used but the most popular hiking is in wilderness areas.

There's going to be a heck of a lot of work this summer to be done what with the heavy rains and winds. If interested, the three main trail maintenance volunteer organizations are the Back Country Horsemen, Pacific Crest Trail Association, and Washington Trails Assoc. The latter will not let volunteers run chainsaws anywhere. The other two will require training and certification for both chainsaws and crosscuts. Most of the Pacific Crest Trail is in wilderness in our fair state.

 

[Zaedock]

The Trails committee in my town uses aluminum nails. Pounded in approx 3/4 of the way.
That's pretty standard in our neck of the woods (W. Mass, North of you).

Also - It's something I think about when ever I do any roadside loggin. Hitting a nail brings the suck.

 

[pdqdl]

Uhhh, no. There are "signs" on the Pacific Crest Trail that are partly grown into the tree. Google it and look at the pictures. I've hiked bits of that trail and others. The older tags were metal and the trees are healing around them. Most of the other trails and the PCT have old blazes. The PCT is turning into a highway, so tags are kind of moot except at junctions or once in a while to assure folks that they are on the PCT.

Trail maintenance is best done annually in this part of the country. Trees fall over, tread washes out, rocks fall, bridges wash out, and brush grows in.

Trails here are numerous on National Forest Land along with Olympic, North Cascades, and Mt Rainier National Parks. Don't confuse the two. In National Forest Wilderness, where there are a hell of a lot of trails to maintain, chainsaws are forbidden, unless approved by a very higher up person and that is seldom done. Crews use crosscut saws to log out trails. National Parks do allow chainsaws in their wilderness to be used for maintenance, but that might not be everywhere.

On non wilderness trails, chainsaws can be used but the most popular hiking is in wilderness areas.

There's going to be a heck of a lot of work this summer to be done what with the heavy rains and winds. If interested, the three main trail maintenance volunteer organizations are the Back Country Horsemen, Pacific Crest Trail Association, and Washington Trails Assoc. The latter will not let volunteers run chainsaws anywhere. The other two will require training and certification for both chainsaws and crosscuts. Most of the Pacific Crest Trail is in wilderness in our fair state.
View attachment 970222

I didn't advocate nailing signs to trees. I advocated using wooden dowels if that's what you are going to do anyway.