Seeking advice for pollarded eucalyptus
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Ekka
Addicted to ArboristSite
Where there is no evidence of failure but a "defect or weakness" identified that if it failed could cause harm/ damage to targets. The dynamic cable will allow natural movement which we all know allows the tree to grow reaction wood where needed. A static would deny the tree natural movement.
If the section fails it will be held up and not impact targets.
Often some pruning is done too.
These days there's a choice of 5% or 20% stretch in a system, a variety of rope strengths, non invasive and relatively easy to fit compared to steel systems. Seldom is there issues of critters eating the rope.
Guy M has always been an advocate of offering MANAGEMENT OPTIONS, if the client is presented with all options and decides (like Mildura) on a re-topping then perhaps management options need to be scrubbed and replaced with Recommendation, albeit they can get other recommendations too and there's nothing new about arborists arguing. :monkey:
Those trees in Mildura are very different to say topped poincianas. The size and weight of those limbs is no comparison. Mature tree height has to be considered, we all know that the tree grows faster, taller, poorly formed and rarely branching leaders (as seen). Sure a few years ago when those leaders were say 4m tall not 20m they could have reduced them or even hedge trimmed them into fancy Disneyland shapes, but those days have passed for those trees. The situation had to be dealth with.
If the section fails it will be held up and not impact targets.
Often some pruning is done too.
These days there's a choice of 5% or 20% stretch in a system, a variety of rope strengths, non invasive and relatively easy to fit compared to steel systems. Seldom is there issues of critters eating the rope.
Guy M has always been an advocate of offering MANAGEMENT OPTIONS, if the client is presented with all options and decides (like Mildura) on a re-topping then perhaps management options need to be scrubbed and replaced with Recommendation, albeit they can get other recommendations too and there's nothing new about arborists arguing. :monkey:
Those trees in Mildura are very different to say topped poincianas. The size and weight of those limbs is no comparison. Mature tree height has to be considered, we all know that the tree grows faster, taller, poorly formed and rarely branching leaders (as seen). Sure a few years ago when those leaders were say 4m tall not 20m they could have reduced them or even hedge trimmed them into fancy Disneyland shapes, but those days have passed for those trees. The situation had to be dealth with.
jomoco
Tree Freak
Sorry guys, but it won't wash. The only time cabling is either called for or justifiable, is to isolate a defect in the tree permanently.
All you jokers selling dynamic cabling to your customers are going to get bit in the azz, eventually.
It's kinda funny to me that so many arborists fall for this dynamic strangling crap being sold to unwary customers.
Show me a cambium on any tree anywhere that can withstand the rated linear tensile strength of even a 1/4 inch EHS 7 strand galvinized steel cable without being crushed into a pulp.
But let's suppose one of these dynamic cobra synthetic ropes becomes loaded under 2K lbs of linear pull, taught as hell, and another leader/branch somewhere in the tree fails and falls across it, that contact combined with the wind will produce friction against that taught soft synthetic rope, and given time, perhaps as little as one season, saw it in half, if a squirrel doesn't do it first!
Much like the rigguy wirestops, the cobra cabling system is a very poorly thought out product, that far too many arborists are adopting at their own peril.
The idea that lessening pressure on a leader/branch can somehow make it stronger is a direct contradiction of the fundamentals of how tension and compression wood is formed/generated in trees.
I met a little old lady who apparently understands how trees get stronger better than you cobra users. She had a nice medium citriodora euc on her hilltop property, that I was removing beetle kill pines over her house at. During lunch I walked around to her backyard to admire her lemon euc, but stopped in my tracks when I saw that this wise old lady had actually tied bowling balls suspended on springs to the big lower laterals on her eucs, and that each time the wind blew the bowling balls did a little dance as they bounced a little hanging from those laterals!
I studied what she'd done for a bit, before knocking on her door and confirming my suspicion that she had hung the bowling balls on springs to actually strengthen the long laterals of that tree, which was her favorite tree.
So even some little old ladies appear to understand tree biology/mechanics better than you cobra boys!
jomoco
All you jokers selling dynamic cabling to your customers are going to get bit in the azz, eventually.
It's kinda funny to me that so many arborists fall for this dynamic strangling crap being sold to unwary customers.
Show me a cambium on any tree anywhere that can withstand the rated linear tensile strength of even a 1/4 inch EHS 7 strand galvinized steel cable without being crushed into a pulp.
But let's suppose one of these dynamic cobra synthetic ropes becomes loaded under 2K lbs of linear pull, taught as hell, and another leader/branch somewhere in the tree fails and falls across it, that contact combined with the wind will produce friction against that taught soft synthetic rope, and given time, perhaps as little as one season, saw it in half, if a squirrel doesn't do it first!
Much like the rigguy wirestops, the cobra cabling system is a very poorly thought out product, that far too many arborists are adopting at their own peril.
The idea that lessening pressure on a leader/branch can somehow make it stronger is a direct contradiction of the fundamentals of how tension and compression wood is formed/generated in trees.
I met a little old lady who apparently understands how trees get stronger better than you cobra users. She had a nice medium citriodora euc on her hilltop property, that I was removing beetle kill pines over her house at. During lunch I walked around to her backyard to admire her lemon euc, but stopped in my tracks when I saw that this wise old lady had actually tied bowling balls suspended on springs to the big lower laterals on her eucs, and that each time the wind blew the bowling balls did a little dance as they bounced a little hanging from those laterals!
I studied what she'd done for a bit, before knocking on her door and confirming my suspicion that she had hung the bowling balls on springs to actually strengthen the long laterals of that tree, which was her favorite tree.
So even some little old ladies appear to understand tree biology/mechanics better than you cobra boys!
jomoco
Boa07
ArboristSite Operative
We are so lucky to have experts of the absolute to share their small nuggets of wisdom with us lesser mortals.
How ridiculous of anyone to even consider that a dynamic cabling system could aid in the retention of specific limbs (and their attached live canopy) within the strucutre of an assessed tree.
Heaven knows Europe is strewn with trussed up trees strangled by constricting masses of synthetic cabling like some obscene Gordian knot convention.....
How I dream of the absolute clarity of exposition "Thou shalt only install static cabling and bracing systems"...sadly it seems I shall be forever exiled from the monochrome universe trapped in the agony of my coloured purgatory world, where options are not constrained by the mind of the holy one......
How ridiculous of anyone to even consider that a dynamic cabling system could aid in the retention of specific limbs (and their attached live canopy) within the strucutre of an assessed tree.
Heaven knows Europe is strewn with trussed up trees strangled by constricting masses of synthetic cabling like some obscene Gordian knot convention.....
How I dream of the absolute clarity of exposition "Thou shalt only install static cabling and bracing systems"...sadly it seems I shall be forever exiled from the monochrome universe trapped in the agony of my coloured purgatory world, where options are not constrained by the mind of the holy one......
Ekka
Addicted to ArboristSite
Beneath this euc is a skate park kids play in, this shot was taken at Nerang Gold Coast, a Gold Coast City Council Park.
Do you think they should replace it with steel or pull it down? :monkey:
Such open American ISA minds I see full of expert one-eyed opinions.
treevet
Addicted to ArboristSite
Beneath this euc is a skate park kids play in, this shot was taken at Nerang Gold Coast, a Gold Coast City Council Park.
Do you think they should replace it with steel or pull it down? :monkey:
Such open American ISA minds I see full of expert one-eyed opinions.
That picture is one of the silliest excuses for "treatment" I have ever witnessed. A few words come to mind...false sense of security (and make pretend you are coughing while you say this.....rrrrrippppofffff). All the little kiddies can play under this tree with no worries now? Mommy and Daddy's precious little gems are safe and sound (ha).
Sort of supporting perceived structural flaws around here would end you up in front of the judge with a huge liable case eventually. Dynamic cabling is a scam. Adding reaction wood? Adding weight and leverage to exacerbate the
defect.
You still stuck on that 44 credits? Been a couple of years now hasn't it? If you could pass the ISA test then you would be attaining credits all the time lol. Why don't you put up 144 credits? Whose gonna know the dif?
Ekka
Addicted to ArboristSite
And as usual Treevet has to go the person, add his venom and taint, no wonder you have a lot in common with OOMT! :deadhorse:
Thank lord tree care goes beyond the USA borders and ISA. :hmm3grin2orange:
You actually believe or perceive this equation ....
1 ISA CEU = 1 AQF unit ...... if you believe that or perceive that then you are way wrong.
It's actually 1 ISA Topic = 1 AQF unit .... CEU's are those little handouts for rocking up to a show or reading one of Len Phillips articles and getting some multiple choice questions right.
But then again, many worship false Gods.
Living in threat of litigation is sound tree management eh. Now show me some cases where the "cabler" has lost a court case. Be specific.
Thank lord tree care goes beyond the USA borders and ISA. :hmm3grin2orange:
You actually believe or perceive this equation ....
1 ISA CEU = 1 AQF unit ...... if you believe that or perceive that then you are way wrong.
It's actually 1 ISA Topic = 1 AQF unit .... CEU's are those little handouts for rocking up to a show or reading one of Len Phillips articles and getting some multiple choice questions right.
But then again, many worship false Gods.
Living in threat of litigation is sound tree management eh. Now show me some cases where the "cabler" has lost a court case. Be specific.
treevet
Addicted to ArboristSite
What do I have in common with OOMT??? Well maybe we have both fallen out of favor with the Ruler Of Tree World (achtung). You should make a little Ekka figure to keep your ISA one company. I am surprised that cartoon hasn't grown gray hair it is so old (and over used and worn out and trite).
I was recently on a thread that you were on and I looked around and 5 out of the 7 people on the thread had been banned from your forum....and I wasn't even one of them. No question were I to return that number would increase one fold and the only one unbanned would be Heir Ekka lol.
Living with the threat of potential litigation IS sound business management IMO and because of that I have never had to suffer the pains involved with a court case ever in 40 years.
I was recently on a thread that you were on and I looked around and 5 out of the 7 people on the thread had been banned from your forum....and I wasn't even one of them. No question were I to return that number would increase one fold and the only one unbanned would be Heir Ekka lol.
Living with the threat of potential litigation IS sound business management IMO and because of that I have never had to suffer the pains involved with a court case ever in 40 years.
Boa07
ArboristSite Operative
(Second attempt at posting a long reply…the software is annoying logging me out and loosing the post!)
Since hardly anyone will know why this system was installed into this tree (by me) I will explain a little.
The tree is a veteran Eucalyptus tereticornis, about 4m from the sealed entrance road to a skate park and dog walking area near the little town of Nerang SE Qld.
Council decided they were going to extend the skate park facilities more concrete forms for people to do their thing.
The y planned to have the concrete forms some 2m off the tree on the opposite side to the road. Fortunately the company I work for became involved and we eventually persuaded council to alter things slightly. (Believe me this is not easy to do as any who have worked with councils will attest)
During the lead in to the construction the tree lost a 350mm limb, the limb had extensive decay through the tension wood from a past injury (amongst other factors) which had been hidden by an epiphyte and large volume of leaf debris.
Not surprisingly there was a lot of pressure to dramatically reduce the tree on the side of the skate park. Now this is a 150yr+ old Euc with reduced vigor about to be exposed to construction impacts. The last thing it needed or could sustain would be the reduction in photosynthetic capacity.
Together with another Arb firm we removed all the mistletoe and large diameter deadwood from the area above the proposed new skate ramps. The tree was closely inspected from branch tips back to main stems, all unions looked at.
This tree has been lopped back at least once in the last 50yrs, and although occluded and the regrowth wrapped in many years of wood growth the branch architecture reflects that cutting history.
Hollowing in the limbs and stems of Eucs (and all trees) is a perfectly normal process that reflects the tree’s age and its past encounters with external forces (man made and natural). This tree has numerous hollows in major limbs.
Many of you that do install static cabling would (I am sure) have looked at this tree if asked to quote to install bracing and laughed saying there was absolutely no need. You’d be right IMO, however intervention was what was demanded by the tree owner (council).
The system of fall arrest was installed in the branches and limbs above the new park, the synthetic ropes will snare branches that might fail and otherwise impact the structure below. We have had some wild winds and weather since the system was installed and no branches have yet failed (we did not expect they would nothing to do with the presence of the ropes btw) doubtless we will get a storm bad enough or a freak wind that will break parts of this tree at some time and then the system will have to be replaced.
This system (and therefore the tree) is inspected annually and after any major storms, the health and structure of the tree is monitored which would not have happened otherwise…these are good outcomes IMO.
Cabling of any kind is just a tool an option amongst many that should be considered when it comes to individual trees. Each of you would have had other ideas other solutions to this particular problem. To rule out dynamic cabling by pontificating on high is just plain silly.
I know that the legal environment in the USA is different to ours and that is something that holds your attention as business operators, I have no experience of your legal system so cannot make meaningful comment about its specifics.
There are some pictures of the tree for context amongst these in this album;
http://picasaweb.google.com/freeman.sd/TerraARK# it also contains pics of my final contract climbing job, same tree.
Sean
Since hardly anyone will know why this system was installed into this tree (by me) I will explain a little.
The tree is a veteran Eucalyptus tereticornis, about 4m from the sealed entrance road to a skate park and dog walking area near the little town of Nerang SE Qld.
Council decided they were going to extend the skate park facilities more concrete forms for people to do their thing.
The y planned to have the concrete forms some 2m off the tree on the opposite side to the road. Fortunately the company I work for became involved and we eventually persuaded council to alter things slightly. (Believe me this is not easy to do as any who have worked with councils will attest)
During the lead in to the construction the tree lost a 350mm limb, the limb had extensive decay through the tension wood from a past injury (amongst other factors) which had been hidden by an epiphyte and large volume of leaf debris.
Not surprisingly there was a lot of pressure to dramatically reduce the tree on the side of the skate park. Now this is a 150yr+ old Euc with reduced vigor about to be exposed to construction impacts. The last thing it needed or could sustain would be the reduction in photosynthetic capacity.
Together with another Arb firm we removed all the mistletoe and large diameter deadwood from the area above the proposed new skate ramps. The tree was closely inspected from branch tips back to main stems, all unions looked at.
This tree has been lopped back at least once in the last 50yrs, and although occluded and the regrowth wrapped in many years of wood growth the branch architecture reflects that cutting history.
Hollowing in the limbs and stems of Eucs (and all trees) is a perfectly normal process that reflects the tree’s age and its past encounters with external forces (man made and natural). This tree has numerous hollows in major limbs.
Many of you that do install static cabling would (I am sure) have looked at this tree if asked to quote to install bracing and laughed saying there was absolutely no need. You’d be right IMO, however intervention was what was demanded by the tree owner (council).
The system of fall arrest was installed in the branches and limbs above the new park, the synthetic ropes will snare branches that might fail and otherwise impact the structure below. We have had some wild winds and weather since the system was installed and no branches have yet failed (we did not expect they would nothing to do with the presence of the ropes btw) doubtless we will get a storm bad enough or a freak wind that will break parts of this tree at some time and then the system will have to be replaced.
This system (and therefore the tree) is inspected annually and after any major storms, the health and structure of the tree is monitored which would not have happened otherwise…these are good outcomes IMO.
Cabling of any kind is just a tool an option amongst many that should be considered when it comes to individual trees. Each of you would have had other ideas other solutions to this particular problem. To rule out dynamic cabling by pontificating on high is just plain silly.
I know that the legal environment in the USA is different to ours and that is something that holds your attention as business operators, I have no experience of your legal system so cannot make meaningful comment about its specifics.
There are some pictures of the tree for context amongst these in this album;
http://picasaweb.google.com/freeman.sd/TerraARK# it also contains pics of my final contract climbing job, same tree.
Sean
Ekka
Addicted to ArboristSite
You'll find they all have the same traits ... poor arguments and get personal with derogatory name calling and generally ignorant to the topic with a one eyed perspective, hence they fit here.
People have trouble with the going hard on the topic and not the people, clearly evident in your posts.
But we have a superior forum without the name calling argumentative trouble makers that serves the wider community well, so a few rotten apples get chucked out, such is life, don't be rotten.
Ekka
Addicted to ArboristSite
Great post Sean, and thanks for telling people it was your job .... I just happen to get around a lot and observe trees, see things others would walk past.
I like options and the 1 size fits all mentality is a trap to avoid.
It is also clearly evident from some of the posts that the holistic approach is not taken, you did detailed inspections.
Check out the canopy of this beauty I recently worked on. It took 5 EWP set ups and almost 9 hours to just deadwood it. We had 3 nests in the tree and 3 possums living in hollows.
Boa07
ArboristSite Operative
That is a very beautiful looking tree no question
treevet
Addicted to ArboristSite
While I am not an advocate for elastic support systems, I do understand working under the restraints you are faced with. I also understand the need to keep to the bare minimum the amount of live tissue removed from an old veteran tree.
What I do not understand is the need to put a high level target and/or expand it after that under a veteran tree. With that in mind to be able to capture a failed limb and avert a disaster makes sense with what you have done Sean. I have also put in capture mechanisms by just using a half inch line from the stem to a defected limb and running bolen it on both ends so as not to cause restriction on either end but if it was to fail it would hold the bulk of it up in the air until I could go up and bring it safely down.
Ekka
Addicted to ArboristSite
Through intervention of certain posters backed with sound reasoning and evidence pulled the thread into a real world perspective that was not considered prior.
All options to be considered, actions to be selected from list of options, often there is no right or wrong .... just choices, which will rarely please everybody however the intention is to please the client and satisfy the circumstances as best it can. Some like to bully their way around with one eyed rhetoric from an inventory which is a stubby short of a 6 pack.
Boa07
ArboristSite Operative
I still do climbing inspections, though truth be told they are slow and laborious
. No derail intended, decades of rugby (I regret nothing!!!!) and a few too many poor descisions on rocks and in trees made it impossible for me to earn through climbing. Its all good
outofmytree
Addicted to ArboristSite
There are some nice photo's in that list Sean, thanks for linking them.
So what would you suggest was the correct option for the Euc in Seans pictures? What other method/s will ensure the tree retains the maximum photosynthetic area, has the least number of wounds and still keeps the kids playing underneath safe?
So what would you suggest was the correct option for the Euc in Seans pictures? What other method/s will ensure the tree retains the maximum photosynthetic area, has the least number of wounds and still keeps the kids playing underneath safe?
outofmytree
Addicted to ArboristSite
Through intervention of certain posters backed with sound reasoning and evidence pulled the thread into a real world perspective that was not considered prior.
All options to be considered, actions to be selected from list of options, often there is no right or wrong .... just choices, which will rarely please everybody however the intention is to please the client and satisfy the circumstances as best it can. Some like to bully their way around with one eyed rhetoric from an inventory which is a stubby short of a 6 pack.
Indeed. Post #16 was a cracker!
So I bid to prune some eucs and didn't get the job because I went out of town and couldn't get it done on the HO's time frame. She ended up hiring someone else for about the same price... A couple weeks later, she calls me to give an estimate to build a block wall and I see this:
Makes me want to cry! I didn't say anything about it to her... Apparently, she likes it though.
Makes me want to cry! I didn't say anything about it to her... Apparently, she likes it though.
On the list of options, that was not the worst. It looks like most of the cuts were aimed at nodes. I would not call it wrong, especially without a "before" pic.
It would be really cool if you could take pics annually from the same spot and document response. Obviously there is a lot of confusion about euc mgt, with all us geniuses here having all this disagreement.
Regret nothing--right on! It would take a while, with moans and groans, for me to prune a tree like mike showed. But it would still be fun!
