Slow lately - time for a new oil thread - I have Castor questions

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Locally to me, synthetic oils are anywhere from 16-23 Euro a liter(nearly equiv to a quart). At today's relatively favourable exchange rate towards the dollar, that's $30 on the top end. I have an option to get some Maxima 927(which isn't usually sold here) for a decent price. I am told it is a blend of ester and castor, and in high compression, high revving engines, burns very clean compared to old school beans, but still has nearly all the advantages. I don't mind swapping out the occasional plug or pulling the saw down. Plugs are as cheap here as they are state side. But saws aren't.

My question is, who is using Maxima 927, what do you think of it, and do you have any tear down photos?

Obliged
 
I run Maxim Castor 927 in everything 2 stoke I have from my small weedeater to my dirtbikes. 32:1 mix. No issues to date after nearly 10 years of use. And I love the smell. Now with that being said, I'm not a professional in the business of running my 2 stroke motors, just residential use for the weedeater, weekend with the saws, and occasional motorcycle riding. So maybe in another few years, I may see something.... But good for now.
 
I'm only doing work part time now a days. I have no problems tearing down a saw on occasion to check it out, either. But the work I do requires a lot of extended run time and heat. I am thinking it would be extra insurance. Also, some esters make my eyes bleed.
 
Locally to me, synthetic oils are anywhere from 16-23 Euro a liter(nearly equiv to a quart). At today's relatively favourable exchange rate towards the dollar, that's $30 on the top end. I have an option to get some Maxima 927(which isn't usually sold here) for a decent price. I am told it is a blend of ester and castor, and in high compression, high revving engines, burns very clean compared to old school beans, but still has nearly all the advantages. I don't mind swapping out the occasional plug or pulling the saw down. Plugs are as cheap here as they are state side. But saws aren't.

My question is, who is using Maxima 927, what do you think of it, and do you have any tear down photos?

Obliged
Ran 927 for several years, never had any problems,can"t remember having to change a plug ( only stopped using it as the place I bought it stopped selling it for some reason)Only dislike I had was, it had very little dye & was difficult to know if any was added to the fuel unless you mixed it yourself
 
Motul 800t, maxima k2, belray h1r, klotz r50. As Mdavlee quoted 927 wont burn clean. Any of these oils will burn extrememly clean and film the surfaces very well
 
When I raced dirtbike all the guys that rode 2 stroke Suzukis and ran 927 was always blowin topends? 927 or Suzuki was the culprit??? Lol!! Most guys that ran Suzuki that used belray, honda hp2, or yamalube had less problems.
 
Blowing the top end is usually a tuning problem, oil issues would be deposits (too much) or scored cyclinders (too little). A blown top end, or at least what I think, is when there is a hole in the top of the piston. This is mostly caused by heat due to a very lean fuel mix. I'm guessing the group of guys that has suzi's and use 927 were all friends, and they all leaned out the carbs to get more power until, ummm, piston blowout!
 
I run 927 in everything and get along great. I've never had any trouble with buildup at 40:1 ran a lot at 32:1 before I got rid of my bikes never any problems there either. Keeping stuff properly tuned does makes a big difference stopping build up.

Here's a good but long read on why castor oil works so well why a little bit of build up isn't a bad thing and why a blend like 927 is a good compromise.
CASTOR OIL
By Bert Striegler.


Back in 1983 there was quite a controversy in magazines about the tests that were necessary to measure the "lubricity" of various oils that might be useful in engines. Castor oil was used as the benchmark, but it was obvious no one knew why this was so. They apparently got a lot of info on various industry tests of lubricants, but these were really designed for other purposes. This was my answer. I will remind you that I was a lubrication engineer and not a chemist, but I drew my chemical info from Bob Durr, the most experienced lubricant scientist in the labs at Conoco.

Bob worked with my group on many product development projects and I can tell you that he is one smart hombre! Small changes were made in the text, but surprisingly very little has really changed since this was originally written. Here goes with the answer:

"I thought I would answer your plea for more information on castor oil and its "film strength", which can be a very misleading term. I have never really seen a satisfactory way to measure the film strength of an oil like castor oil. We routinely use tests like the Falex test, the Timken test or the Shell 4-ball test, but these are primarily designed to measure the effect of chemical extreme pressure agents such as are used in gear oils. These "EP" agents have no function in an IC engine, particularly the two-stroke model engine types.

You really have to go back to the basics of lubrication to get a better handle on what happens in a engine. For any fluid to act as a lubricant, it must first be "polar" enough to wet the moving surfaces. Next, it must have a high resistance to surface boiling and vaporization at the temperatures encountered. Ideally the fluid should have "oiliness", which is difficult to measure but generally requires a rather large molecular structure. Even water can be a good lubricant under the right conditions.

Castor oil meets these rather simple requirements in an engine, with only one really severe drawback in that it is thermally unstable. This unusual instability is the thing that lets castor oil lubricate at temperatures well beyond those at which most synthetics will work.

Castor oil is roughly 87% triglyceride of ricinoleic acid, [ (CH3(CH2)5CH(OH)CH2CH=CH(CH2)7COO)3(OC)3H5 ], which is unique because there is a double bond in the 9th position and a hydroxyl in the 11th position. As the temperature goes up, it loses one molecule of water and becomes a "drying" oil. Another look at the molecule. Castor oil has excellent storage stability at room temperatures, but it polymerizes rapidly as the temperature goes up. As it polymerizes, it forms ever-heavier "oils" that are rich in esters. These esters do not even begin to decompose until the temperature hits about 650 degrees F (343 deg C). Castor oil forms huge molecular structures at these elevated temperatures - in other words, as the temperature goes up, the castor oil exposed to these temperatures responds by becoming an even better lubricant!

Unfortunately, the end byproduct of this process is what we refer to as "varnish." So, you can't have everything, but you can come close by running a mixture of castor oil with polyalkylene glycol like Union Carbide's UCON, or their MA 731. This mixture has some synergistic properties, or better properties than either product had alone. As an interesting sidelight, castor oil can be stabilized to a degree by the addition of Vitamin E (Tocopherol) in small quantities, but if you make it too stable it would no longer offer the unusual high temperature protection that it did before.

Castor oil is not normally soluble in ordinary petroleum oils, but if you polymerize it for several hours at 300 degrees F (149 deg C), the polymerized oil becomes soluble. Hydrogenation achieves somewhat the same effect.

Castor oil has other unique properties. It is highly polar and has a great affinity for metal surfaces.

It has a flash point of only 445 degrees F (229 deg C), but its fire point is about 840 degrees F (449 deg C)! This is very unusual behavior if you consider that polyalkylene glycols flash at about 350-400 degrees F (176-204 deg C)and have a fire point of only about 550 degrees F (288 deg C), or slightly higher.

Nearly all of the common synthetics that we use burn in the combustion chamber if you get off too lean.

Castor oil does not, because it is busily forming more and more complex polymers as the temperature goes up. Most synthetics boil on the cylinder walls at temperatures slightly above their flash point. The same activity can take place in the wrist pin area, depending on engine design.

Synthetics also have another interesting feature - they would like to return to the materials from which they were made, usually things like ethylene oxide, complex alcohols, or other less suitable lubricants. This happens very rapidly when a critical temperature is reached. We call this phenomena "unzippering" for obvious reasons.

So, you have a choice. Run the engine too lean and it gets too hot. The synthetic burns or simply vaporizes, but castor oil decomposes into a soft varnish and a series of ester groups that still have powerful lubricity.

Good reason for a mix of the two lubricants! ( " 927 " is a mix as described here!)

In spite of all this, the synthetics are still excellent lubricants if you know their limitations and work within those limits. Used properly, engine life will be good with either product. Cooked on a lean run, castor oil will win every time. A mix of the two can give the best of both worlds.

Like most things in this old life, lubricants are always a compromise of good and bad properties. Synthetics yield a clean engine, while castor oil yields a dirty engine, but at least now you know why! "

Bert Striegler

Bert was the Sr. Research Eng'r. (ret.) at Conoco Oil Co.
 
Let me reiterate the issue here. A quart of synthetic two stroke mix is nearly the equivalent of $30 here. I just got some maxima 927 for less than half that. A friend of mine that runs ported two stroke bikes uses it, and buys it in bulk. He says it's fairly clean. I have seen the pistons and cylinder pics he's had. Just a bit of oil here and there. Nothing like the old castor used to do. It is a hybrid blend, and not a full castor. I was specifically asking if people had experience with 927 in a chainsaw. Though Dave responded, he has no real specifics on the use or any photos. In any case. I take my saws down often enough, and it's easy enough to tell how it runs at the plug and the top of the piston, which do not require tear down. So, I am gonna try it and report back.

As for the argument of burning cleaner oils - cleaning a piston and cylinder are far easier than buying new ones... I have a LOT of stumping and huge trees in my near future, so I would rather have the added protection and mess than wear. In any case, I am curious to see if it runs in a heavily ported chainsaw(it won't be run in a woods ported saw) similarly to a ported bike. Also, the stuff smells great ;)
 

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