synthetics vs castor oil

[Andyshine77]

You can get a good idea of what the syn content is by looking at the MSDS. Their will be a percent of ester and other additives, solvents polymers, anticorrosives and so on. What most of you are referring to syn blend oils, pertains to automotive oils not eater based 2T oils.

 

[7sleeper]

That is the nice thing about standards or norms. They are unaffiliated to manufacturers or all others. The equation is simple either you make it or not.
And if the old tech tells me mobil 1 is the way to go. That's great because it is not available anymore.

7

 

[shootingarts]

Went to the material safety data sheets. Found out that Bel-Ray H1R is listed as 100% ester and not dangerous so pretty much all info is N/A. Not available or not applicable, either way they ain't giving it out! Apparently anything mixed to the ester base is in small enough quantities that it doesn't have to be reported.

The MC-1 appears to be 10-20% Marvel Mystery Oil which is kind of interesting. The gubment lets them give wide ranges as to percentages of what is in an oil so it is 60-80 percent total of things that are each too small in themselves to be reportable according to the sheet. An odd claim . . .

Stihl Ultra does have esters listed as an additive. Not a ton I would guess because they say it mixes with all two cycle oils, safe to just add new mix to old.

About the Mobil One, never fails unobtainium or something made with unobtainium is always better than anything on the market today. Some cold medicine company had chewable lozenges. Seventy-three different colors so naturally the only one they took off the market was the one that worked for me!

Hu

 

[banana boat]

Even if I started it lol

 

[7sleeper]

Am not suprised one bit! It would have been a miracle if a company gave out their secret ingredient formula.

And about mobile one, if it was so great I doubt that they would have really taken it off the market. Because we are constantly seeing new "manufacturers" (of course in reality only blenders) comming out with new products every now and then. I doubt a company would look the other way if profit could be made.

7

 

[MCW]

Went to the material safety data sheets. Found out that Bel-Ray H1R is listed as 100% ester and not dangerous so pretty much all info is N/A. Not available or not applicable, either way they ain't giving it out! Apparently anything mixed to the ester base is in small enough quantities that it doesn't have to be reported.

The MC-1 appears to be 10-20% Marvel Mystery Oil which is kind of interesting. The gubment lets them give wide ranges as to percentages of what is in an oil so it is 60-80 percent total of things that are each too small in themselves to be reportable according to the sheet. An odd claim . . .

Stihl Ultra does have esters listed as an additive. Not a ton I would guess because they say it mixes with all two cycle oils, safe to just add new mix to old.

About the Mobil One, never fails unobtainium or something made with unobtainium is always better than anything on the market today. Some cold medicine company had chewable lozenges. Seventy-three different colors so naturally the only one they took off the market was the one that worked for me!

Hu

MSDS's are pretty vague at the best of times. I am an agricultural agronomist and we have had a few specific liquid fertiliser blends made up. Of course we didn't want our opposition getting hold of the makeup so the company simply put "less than" numbers on the MSDS.

ie: Boron <5%
Molybdenum <5%

etc etc.

For interesting Youtube videos do a search for Syngenta TurfUS and this will give you an idea what goes on with high tech formulations. No matter what information is on an MSDS they would be pretty hard to copy.

 

[shootingarts]

MSDS's are pretty vague at the best of times. I am an agricultural agronomist and we have had a few specific liquid fertiliser blends made up. Of course we didn't want our opposition getting hold of the makeup so the company simply put "less than" numbers on the MSDS.

ie: Boron <5%
Molybdenum <5%

etc etc.

For interesting Youtube videos do a search for Syngenta TurfUS and this will give you an idea what goes on with high tech formulations. No matter what information is on an MSDS they would be pretty hard to copy.

I have read MSDS sheets quite a few times before but it has been years, didn't remember them being real helpful even finding safety issues, much less letting you reverse engineer something. We played the same game when I worked in R&D. First thing I drew was a copy of a graphite, maybe carbon?, mechanical seal from another company. This was a pretty involved assembly, not a simple grease seal. The company owner claimed we had to have a version of the drawing with our title block to submit to the military, our customer. Before I finished the drawing I realized that he was planning to steal the design, and that the seal as drawn was impossible to machine. I could have easily drew in a line or two and made it work but I went to the owner and told him about the missing lines, told him not a problem I would design one from scratch.

Due to the documentation requirements and the freedom of information act all the government contractors could steal back and forth from each other. At the end of the project before sending off all the drawings I spent a couple three days deciding which lines I could remove without being too obvious myself!

Hu

 

[MCW]

I have read MSDS sheets quite a few times before but it has been years, didn't remember them being real helpful even finding safety issues, much less letting you reverse engineer something.

Hu

With most things they are basically impossible to reverse engineer anything from. Unfortunately formulating a Lignosulphonated chelated micronutrient mix is quite easy. All we are trying to hide is the ratio of actual nutrients which took years to come up with to suit our region and growing conditions. If anybody was serious they'd simply get hold of a sample, send it to a lab for testing, and off they go
The most useful thing I've used an MSDS was to work out the Ld50 of a certain active to see whether it could be used as an ingredient in an off label mouse/rat bait when bait ran out 3 years ago due to a mouse plague
MSDS's always use mice and rats for toxicity testing.

 

[Andyshine77]

Some MSDS's are better than others. Maxima provides above average info on their products IMHO. One reason I'm a fan of Maxima's products like K2. http://www.maximausa.com/msds/2stroke/Formula K2.pdf

 

[paccity]

i have used this in bikes and saws for years , not so much now , spendy. veggy oil. no color to it so you got to remember .

 

[shootingarts]

With most things they are basically impossible to reverse engineer anything from. Unfortunately formulating a Lignosulphonated chelated micronutrient mix is quite easy. All we are trying to hide is the ratio of actual nutrients which took years to come up with to suit our region and growing conditions. If anybody was serious they'd simply get hold of a sample, send it to a lab for testing, and off they go
The most useful thing I've used an MSDS was to work out the Ld50 of a certain active to see whether it could be used as an ingredient in an off label mouse/rat bait when bait ran out 3 years ago due to a mouse plague
MSDS's always use mice and rats for toxicity testing.

It's funny, I suspect nothing has spent quite as much time in competitors lab's as Coca-Cola yet nobody else quite matches it. Something else that seems like it would be super easy to match is Fritos corn chips. No others have quite the same taste and crunch. I have always freely shared secrets with my fellow competitors. Never figured that any one of them would know exactly the same things I did and even if they did they wouldn't apply them the same.

Hu

 

[Stihlman441]

Am not suprised one bit! It would have been a miracle if a company gave out their secret ingredient formula.

And about mobile one, if it was so great I doubt that they would have really taken it off the market. Because we are constantly seeing new "manufacturers" (of course in reality only blenders) comming out with new products every now and then. I doubt a company would look the other way if profit could be made.

7

Still available in Australia.

 

[windthrown]

Still available in Australia.

Long gone here. It was cheap and available at most auto stores here, for about $10 a qt. Great stuff, but the only problem was that it was clear. We had many discussions about it here on AS, especially when it was EOLd. Many AS members hoarded it.

I switched to Elf MOTO 2 XT. Elf has been around for a very long time and is a sponsor for a lot of racing events. I noticed improved performance using this oil, and it is available at most motorcycle shops. About $10 a liter here (online). Sold worldwide.

Elf 2 XT MOTO / 100% synthetic ester based formula
Meets and Exceeds ISO-LEGD / JASO FC / API TC (I think it is JASO FD rated now)
Details here: http://matrixsyntheticoils.com/datasheets/MOTO_2_XT_TECH.pdf

 

[Stihlman441]

quote="windthrown, post: 4588597, member: 11682"]Long gone here. It was cheap and available at most auto stores here, for about $10 a qt. Great stuff, but the only problem was that it was clear. We had many discussions about it here on AS, especially when it was EOLd. Many AS members hoarded it.

The first 4 lts i got was clear also,but the last 8 x 4ltr have been red.

 

[derwoodii]

I run maxima 927 its a blend of castor and synthetics and from what I hear I would be willing to bet its the most widely used oil in motocross and kart racing.


From maximas site:

Castor 927 is a unique blend of highly refined castor oil, a specially prepared synthetic and an additive system that reduces carbon and gum formation and provides excellent rust & corrosion protection. Castor 927 also contains an exclusive additive that keeps power valves cleaner and working properly. For all of us that wish to keep our air and water cleaner, Castor 927 is biodegradable. Castor 927 keeps on lubricating; where other lubricants turn to carbon or vaporize, and provides extra protection on cylinder walls, bearing journals and other critical areas at temperatures much higher than other lubricants.

I run this as well cuz it smells nice

 

[7sleeper]

Some MSDS's are better than others. Maxima provides above average info on their products IMHO. One reason I'm a fan of Maxima's products like K2. http://www.maximausa.com/msds/2stroke/Formula K2.pdf

Information like that is madatory for the consumer over here. So that is nothing special. Usually the shop where you buy your stuff has to provide it and most companies have it online. If they don't or are touchy, no problem one call to the general manager and everybody is back in line!

7

 

[MCW]

It's funny, I suspect nothing has spent quite as much time in competitors lab's as Coca-Cola yet nobody else quite matches it. Something else that seems like it would be super easy to match is Fritos corn chips. No others have quite the same taste and crunch. I have always freely shared secrets with my fellow competitors. Never figured that any one of them would know exactly the same things I did and even if they did they wouldn't apply them the same.

Hu

I agree 100% but quite often it's not whether they can match it or not, it's if they give the consumer the impression they have. With food it's hard as consumers can tell straight away and with a mechanical part it may either fail or won't do the job. Unfortunately with products where quality is difficult to quantify then a competitor's product that claim's to do the same job can actually do a fair amount of damage to the original product's bottom line if it's marketed correctly.
For example with synthetic 2 stroke oil if it was that hard to make there wouldn't be 5,000 options on the market.

 

[Miles86]

Went to the material safety data sheets. Found out that Bel-Ray H1R is listed as 100% ester and not dangerous so pretty much all info is N/A. Not available or not applicable, either way they ain't giving it out! Apparently anything mixed to the ester base is in small enough quantities that it doesn't have to be reported.

The MC-1 appears to be 10-20% Marvel Mystery Oil which is kind of interesting. The gubment lets them give wide ranges as to percentages of what is in an oil so it is 60-80 percent total of things that are each too small in themselves to be reportable according to the sheet. An odd claim . . .

Stihl Ultra does have esters listed as an additive. Not a ton I would guess because they say it mixes with all two cycle oils, safe to just add new mix to old.

About the Mobil One, never fails unobtainium or something made with unobtainium is always better than anything on the market today. Some cold medicine company had chewable lozenges. Seventy-three different colors so naturally the only one they took off the market was the one that worked for me!

Hu

Howdy:

Belray MC-1 is the old school synthetic but it is not the same base oil as H1R.
MC-1 used SbDTC (antimony) as the antiwear agent.

MC-1 is a 50 weight SAE viscosity oil thus they recommend 50:1
flashpoint is 208 F PMCC

H1R is 40 weight SAE viscosity.
Flashpoint is 395 F PMCC

H1R is for powervalve motocrossers
MC-1 is for non powervalves

Both are great oils for your saw. I also really like the Belray Marine racing oil for everyday use due to the clean burning and rust preventing additives.
I been using MC-1 for my YZ125 since the early 1980's.

 

[MCW]

Another tip for reading an MSDS is to look at the CAS number of the active ingredient, not actually the name of the active ingredient. Manufacturers quite often use fancy terminology for exactly the same active ingredient yet one will sound more upmarket than the other one. The CAS number filters out all the BS marketing hype.

 

[treesmith]

w

where do you get your mobil 1 in oz? I'm not paying $36per liter for Hr1 belray anymore!

Sorry lost the thread, Drouin

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