If you read post #29 you'll see why free market does not always mean better products. Sometimes (not very often admittedly) the govt can get something right.
So called EPA rated furnaces
- Thread starter CrappieKeith
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If you read post #29 you'll see why free market does not always mean better products. Sometimes (not very often admittedly) the govt can get something right.
How much did it cost for INTERTEK to test the KUUMA?
CrappieKeith
Addicted to ArboristSite
The Government namely the IRS due to the prodding from the stove manufactures through HPBA got the lower heat value method of testing approved to be able to compete with those European stoves during our last biomass tax credit.
In that testing there is a caloric value of 0 for water in the wood. This artificially drives up the efficiency numbers,which is what helped many stoves and furnaces achieve the 75% required as per the Energy Star rules for that credit.
That is how Kuuma comes up with such a high number that in the real world of burning seasoned wood the furnace and or stove would have liquid pouring from the flue pipe.
Physics demands that a certain amount of heat exhaust to maintain a good draft. Emissions from gas,oil or wood will condense at about 230 degrees.So it is imperative to maintain a hot enough flue gas to not condense. Any fuel burner that is at 83% in the normal way of testing is not condensing...once it goes to 84% or higher it becomes condensing.
Also...you really can not drive a wood appliance to that edge...because of burn cycles you'll have a heat fluctuation as the unit calls for heat and then as it becomes satisfied and goes into a low burn waiting for another call for heat...unless it is a stove and there are no settings for automatic calls for heat.Here you'll just set it and let it burn...in some cases it's is an all or nothing type of burn.
Wood burners do not operate like gas or oil.... continuity of operation. So typically they will operate with a bit faster of a draft which drops efficiency.
There are other attributes as far as efficiency is concerned. Having a clean burn does not equate to being efficient. Some appliance run a fast draft to burn the unit hard to burn as much of the particulates as possible. Higher stack temps will be evident. More heat up the flue means less heat in the home and lower efficiency.
Heat ex-changer surface area is another attribute. You can make all of the heat in the world,but if that heat available can not be exchanged fast enough it will still go out the flue.
Thermal mass is another attribute...not all brick are created equal.There are 3 duties...light,medium and heavy.We use heavy duty bricks which are ceramic and they are rated at 3200 degrees.
We also use the thickest brick...a full 2 inches unlike those thinner bricks which are less able to work as well for thermal mass.
Bricks do several things...they provide a good heat sink or heat storage...they maintain hot environments in appliances that utilize gasification and they help protect fire box walls from over heating.
Since burning wood has so many variables it is hard to use exact statements like I get x amount of burn time.You would 1st need to know species of wood,moisture content,heat loss of the building,heat load( how cold is it outside) in order to accurately judge how well an appliance performs.
For a guy that never sees cold temps colder than say in the teens and for him to make a statement about burn times would hold no water to a guy that maybe heating a larger home or a home that has less insulation or a guy that lives in a climate where below 0 is common place.
In that testing there is a caloric value of 0 for water in the wood. This artificially drives up the efficiency numbers,which is what helped many stoves and furnaces achieve the 75% required as per the Energy Star rules for that credit.
That is how Kuuma comes up with such a high number that in the real world of burning seasoned wood the furnace and or stove would have liquid pouring from the flue pipe.
Physics demands that a certain amount of heat exhaust to maintain a good draft. Emissions from gas,oil or wood will condense at about 230 degrees.So it is imperative to maintain a hot enough flue gas to not condense. Any fuel burner that is at 83% in the normal way of testing is not condensing...once it goes to 84% or higher it becomes condensing.
Also...you really can not drive a wood appliance to that edge...because of burn cycles you'll have a heat fluctuation as the unit calls for heat and then as it becomes satisfied and goes into a low burn waiting for another call for heat...unless it is a stove and there are no settings for automatic calls for heat.Here you'll just set it and let it burn...in some cases it's is an all or nothing type of burn.
Wood burners do not operate like gas or oil.... continuity of operation. So typically they will operate with a bit faster of a draft which drops efficiency.
There are other attributes as far as efficiency is concerned. Having a clean burn does not equate to being efficient. Some appliance run a fast draft to burn the unit hard to burn as much of the particulates as possible. Higher stack temps will be evident. More heat up the flue means less heat in the home and lower efficiency.
Heat ex-changer surface area is another attribute. You can make all of the heat in the world,but if that heat available can not be exchanged fast enough it will still go out the flue.
Thermal mass is another attribute...not all brick are created equal.There are 3 duties...light,medium and heavy.We use heavy duty bricks which are ceramic and they are rated at 3200 degrees.
We also use the thickest brick...a full 2 inches unlike those thinner bricks which are less able to work as well for thermal mass.
Bricks do several things...they provide a good heat sink or heat storage...they maintain hot environments in appliances that utilize gasification and they help protect fire box walls from over heating.
Since burning wood has so many variables it is hard to use exact statements like I get x amount of burn time.You would 1st need to know species of wood,moisture content,heat loss of the building,heat load( how cold is it outside) in order to accurately judge how well an appliance performs.
For a guy that never sees cold temps colder than say in the teens and for him to make a statement about burn times would hold no water to a guy that maybe heating a larger home or a home that has less insulation or a guy that lives in a climate where below 0 is common place.
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Whiteash
ArboristSite Lurker
Another good post from Crappie Keith....
Ironically I found this forum by accident and recognised Crappie keith, I was asking the question of amount of poundage and so forth and so on because at my place there is a lot of Dutch Elm Trees along with Poplar and Paper birch but basically white and black ash that I have been burning for 15 yrs (hense the name) which are a total pain to split but they seem to burn well. A couple superbowls ago I was sitting in my den with the guys and one of em said,"do you smell smoke". Well the old ashley had finally met its maker and through research I bought a big jack which I love to death. The house in the winter is 75 degrees on just over 4 chords of wood a season never more than 5 as opposed to the 7-8 that I used to burn. I also found that I am cleaning my chimney once a season instead of 3 times. This tells me from usage that the effieciency is high and the particulates are low.
My parents after seeing the big jack determined that they were going to replace the one they have in their basement. They live in central Iowa where the climate is not quite as cold but still fairly brisk winters. (she also makes a mean apple rhubarb pie and if you play your cards right keith she may send you one!). They have a little larger home and went with the super jack.
To make a long story short here's the deal, I bought one initially because of the 7 gauge steel construction, firebrick lining, and 30 year pro-rated warranty. Some things are more important to others but those were the ones that were important to me.
Burn times I can only state what I know and those are my experiences. Mom and dad have a 2700 square foot home and when it is 35 degrees out dad loads it at 6:30 in the morning on his way out the door, then again after supper which is about 6. They never start a fire and it burns from november to march. They burn about 5 chords of wood a year oak/ash mix.
My house is a little smaller but a whole lot older, 2000 square feet built in 1903 and is not overly insulated or tight. I keep my house 75-76 and when it is 35-40 I get 12 hours out of the big jack. Last winter here in mn we had a week it never got above the teens below zero...brr. One morning I woke up and the thermometer said -37. That night the house was 75 and I got an 8 hour burn time.
I also appreciate the fact that if I call for parts or moral support or any other reason there is always someone there to talk to and they always have the answer to my question.
Ironically I found this forum by accident and recognised Crappie keith, I was asking the question of amount of poundage and so forth and so on because at my place there is a lot of Dutch Elm Trees along with Poplar and Paper birch but basically white and black ash that I have been burning for 15 yrs (hense the name) which are a total pain to split but they seem to burn well. A couple superbowls ago I was sitting in my den with the guys and one of em said,"do you smell smoke". Well the old ashley had finally met its maker and through research I bought a big jack which I love to death. The house in the winter is 75 degrees on just over 4 chords of wood a season never more than 5 as opposed to the 7-8 that I used to burn. I also found that I am cleaning my chimney once a season instead of 3 times. This tells me from usage that the effieciency is high and the particulates are low.
My parents after seeing the big jack determined that they were going to replace the one they have in their basement. They live in central Iowa where the climate is not quite as cold but still fairly brisk winters. (she also makes a mean apple rhubarb pie and if you play your cards right keith she may send you one!). They have a little larger home and went with the super jack.
To make a long story short here's the deal, I bought one initially because of the 7 gauge steel construction, firebrick lining, and 30 year pro-rated warranty. Some things are more important to others but those were the ones that were important to me.
Burn times I can only state what I know and those are my experiences. Mom and dad have a 2700 square foot home and when it is 35 degrees out dad loads it at 6:30 in the morning on his way out the door, then again after supper which is about 6. They never start a fire and it burns from november to march. They burn about 5 chords of wood a year oak/ash mix.
My house is a little smaller but a whole lot older, 2000 square feet built in 1903 and is not overly insulated or tight. I keep my house 75-76 and when it is 35-40 I get 12 hours out of the big jack. Last winter here in mn we had a week it never got above the teens below zero...brr. One morning I woke up and the thermometer said -37. That night the house was 75 and I got an 8 hour burn time.
I also appreciate the fact that if I call for parts or moral support or any other reason there is always someone there to talk to and they always have the answer to my question.
lampmfg
ArboristSite.com Sponsor
All the bantering would be put to rest if the involved parties had their furnaces tested by an EPA certified lab so facts, not claims were used for comparisons. Here at Lamppa Mfg., Kuuma VaporFires were tested independently by Intertek so we could back up what we advertise.
We submitted our furnaces, VaporFire 100 and VaporFire 200 in 2010, so our customers could receive the $1500 tax credit for high efficiency furnaces. The CAN/CSA B415.1-00 test for solid fuel furnaces was done to determine efficiencies (stack loss method) and at the same time we also requested the emissions test so we would be ready in 2014. We had it tested as a furnace will be tested using real cordwood (oak at 18-28% moisture content) with the amount of coals and wood required according to the standard for the size of the firebox. The VaporFire 200 firebox is 18 1/2" L x 20" H x 16" W. The VaporFire 100 is 23"L x 20"H x 16" W. This is also the way boilers are now being certified using real cordwood and loaded according to the manufacturer's directions with the amount of coals and wood according to the required standard. The EPA stove test is different because they use douglas fir wood that is cribbed (cleated) which is something no one does in the real world. Furnaces will be using real cordwood which is more realistic and fair because that's the way it's done in the real world.
Our results were unheard of: 99% smokeless burns, 99% combustion efficiency, 84% overall efficiency, and less than 1 g./hr of emissions. In the real world you can load the VaporFire and get 10-12 hours of useful heat per load followed by another 6-8 hrs. of hot coals and have less than 5 min. of very light smoke when you first start the furnace using hard wood. Soft wood would be about 2 hours less per load.
There was some chatter about adding extra air to dilute your emissions to get better test results. This is not true. Even if you dilute the exhaust with more air, the total emissions sucked up in the extraction filters will still be the same. The particles will still be extracted and not bypassed because of extra air that you added. The smoke may appear thinner, but the particles will still be in the filters.
Also, there was some chatter about needing 100,000 BTU's/hr to heat a home. Unless your doors or windows are open or you have no insulation in your home no one uses 100,000 BTU's/hr. If you did, in 24 hours you'd burn 17 plus gallons of oil and spend $68/day and over $2,000/month on oil. In the dead of winter most homes only run their oil furnaces' if they're only using oil, one third to one half of each hour, so all you are really using is between 30,000-50,000 BTU's/hr.
If other companies get their furnaces tested, potential buyers will easily be able to see which one is the best. In 2014 that is exactly what will happen.
We submitted our furnaces, VaporFire 100 and VaporFire 200 in 2010, so our customers could receive the $1500 tax credit for high efficiency furnaces. The CAN/CSA B415.1-00 test for solid fuel furnaces was done to determine efficiencies (stack loss method) and at the same time we also requested the emissions test so we would be ready in 2014. We had it tested as a furnace will be tested using real cordwood (oak at 18-28% moisture content) with the amount of coals and wood required according to the standard for the size of the firebox. The VaporFire 200 firebox is 18 1/2" L x 20" H x 16" W. The VaporFire 100 is 23"L x 20"H x 16" W. This is also the way boilers are now being certified using real cordwood and loaded according to the manufacturer's directions with the amount of coals and wood according to the required standard. The EPA stove test is different because they use douglas fir wood that is cribbed (cleated) which is something no one does in the real world. Furnaces will be using real cordwood which is more realistic and fair because that's the way it's done in the real world.
Our results were unheard of: 99% smokeless burns, 99% combustion efficiency, 84% overall efficiency, and less than 1 g./hr of emissions. In the real world you can load the VaporFire and get 10-12 hours of useful heat per load followed by another 6-8 hrs. of hot coals and have less than 5 min. of very light smoke when you first start the furnace using hard wood. Soft wood would be about 2 hours less per load.
There was some chatter about adding extra air to dilute your emissions to get better test results. This is not true. Even if you dilute the exhaust with more air, the total emissions sucked up in the extraction filters will still be the same. The particles will still be extracted and not bypassed because of extra air that you added. The smoke may appear thinner, but the particles will still be in the filters.
Also, there was some chatter about needing 100,000 BTU's/hr to heat a home. Unless your doors or windows are open or you have no insulation in your home no one uses 100,000 BTU's/hr. If you did, in 24 hours you'd burn 17 plus gallons of oil and spend $68/day and over $2,000/month on oil. In the dead of winter most homes only run their oil furnaces' if they're only using oil, one third to one half of each hour, so all you are really using is between 30,000-50,000 BTU's/hr.
If other companies get their furnaces tested, potential buyers will easily be able to see which one is the best. In 2014 that is exactly what will happen.
CrappieKeith
Addicted to ArboristSite
A general rule of thumb says that a home needs about 30 btu's per square foot. a 3000 s/f home would then require about a 90,000 btu output furnace. While this rule will fluctuate depending on the climate of the home's local it's a good general rule.
If you want to be exact a heat loss calculation should be performed by a bonafide HVAC expert.
To heat that same home with a 50,000 btu output furnace and in the climates we have where the home sees temps of 0 and colder for most of the winter......it would run non stop and still be cool in the home.
If you want to be exact a heat loss calculation should be performed by a bonafide HVAC expert.
To heat that same home with a 50,000 btu output furnace and in the climates we have where the home sees temps of 0 and colder for most of the winter......it would run non stop and still be cool in the home.
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lampmfg
ArboristSite.com Sponsor
Let's take a close factual look at a home in Minnesota that needs 90,000 BTU's/hr. in order to heat bywhen subzero weather hits. I'm sure we'd agree that some really cold temps can stretch for 2 weeks or more and occur more than once during the winter. For an oil furnace to constantly produce 90,000 BTU's/hr. pretty much require hour after hour operation.
Here's the facts: 1) 1 gallon #2 heating oil = 140,000 BTU's; 2) 90,000 BTU's/hr. x 24 hrs = 2,160,000 BTU's; 3) 2,160,000 BTU's divided by 140,000 BTU's/gallon = 15.43 gal. oil/day; 4) 15.43 gal. oil x approx. $4/gallon = $62/day; 5) $62 x 14 days = $863 in 2 weeks; 6) $62 x 30 days = $1,860 in a month; 7) 1 cord birch = 21,000,000 BTU's; 8) 21,000,000 BTU's x 60% (average overall efficiency for most furnaces) = 12,600,000 BTU's/cord birch; 9) 2,160,000 x 14 days = 30,240,000 BTU's/2 weeks; 10) 30,240,000 divided by 12,600,000 = 2.4 cords birch for 2 weeks; 11) Approximately 5 cords needed for one cold month.
This would be absurd in terms of the cost using only oil or the amount of wood if burning wood. It would cost approximately $10,000 for oil heat or 15-20 cords of birch fire wood. Who would do either? Only someone like Donald Trump or the CEO of Boise Cascade could afford to pay the oil bill or have enough firewood. For anyone needing 90,000 BTU's/hr., I suggest closing your doors and windows along with insulating your house. Otherwise you're helping to heat the world which is tough for even the sun to do in the winter.
The chatter about emissions not meaning much isn't true. Real high emissions definitely mean poor combustion in your furnace, air pollution, and wasted wood. The other important part is your heat exchanger and how well it captures your generated combustion heat. With the Kuuma VaporFire having a 99% combustion level, less than 1 gr/hr of emissions, and an average internal flue temperature of only350 degrees F., it's safe to say we've got the best of both worlds.
The chatter about the HHV (high heat value) and the LHV (low heat value) of wood used in testing woodburning furnaces only further proves how super efficient our VaporFire furnaces are. Our VaporFire furnaces have an overall efficiency of 86% LHV or 80% HHV which are both extremely high numbers. The LHV is used for woodburning furnaces because you're using valuable heat energy to drive off moisture during the burn cycle which isn't recaptured again as the vapor escapes up your flue (it's not recondensed). With our natural draft system and furnace design, our stack loss temperatures are just enough to maintain proper draft levels for high chimneys and insulated outside chimneys. You have to be very careful that you have enough heat loss so you don't have a reverse draft situation. :msp_ohmy:
Here's the facts: 1) 1 gallon #2 heating oil = 140,000 BTU's; 2) 90,000 BTU's/hr. x 24 hrs = 2,160,000 BTU's; 3) 2,160,000 BTU's divided by 140,000 BTU's/gallon = 15.43 gal. oil/day; 4) 15.43 gal. oil x approx. $4/gallon = $62/day; 5) $62 x 14 days = $863 in 2 weeks; 6) $62 x 30 days = $1,860 in a month; 7) 1 cord birch = 21,000,000 BTU's; 8) 21,000,000 BTU's x 60% (average overall efficiency for most furnaces) = 12,600,000 BTU's/cord birch; 9) 2,160,000 x 14 days = 30,240,000 BTU's/2 weeks; 10) 30,240,000 divided by 12,600,000 = 2.4 cords birch for 2 weeks; 11) Approximately 5 cords needed for one cold month.
This would be absurd in terms of the cost using only oil or the amount of wood if burning wood. It would cost approximately $10,000 for oil heat or 15-20 cords of birch fire wood. Who would do either? Only someone like Donald Trump or the CEO of Boise Cascade could afford to pay the oil bill or have enough firewood. For anyone needing 90,000 BTU's/hr., I suggest closing your doors and windows along with insulating your house. Otherwise you're helping to heat the world which is tough for even the sun to do in the winter.
The chatter about emissions not meaning much isn't true. Real high emissions definitely mean poor combustion in your furnace, air pollution, and wasted wood. The other important part is your heat exchanger and how well it captures your generated combustion heat. With the Kuuma VaporFire having a 99% combustion level, less than 1 gr/hr of emissions, and an average internal flue temperature of only350 degrees F., it's safe to say we've got the best of both worlds.
The chatter about the HHV (high heat value) and the LHV (low heat value) of wood used in testing woodburning furnaces only further proves how super efficient our VaporFire furnaces are. Our VaporFire furnaces have an overall efficiency of 86% LHV or 80% HHV which are both extremely high numbers. The LHV is used for woodburning furnaces because you're using valuable heat energy to drive off moisture during the burn cycle which isn't recaptured again as the vapor escapes up your flue (it's not recondensed). With our natural draft system and furnace design, our stack loss temperatures are just enough to maintain proper draft levels for high chimneys and insulated outside chimneys. You have to be very careful that you have enough heat loss so you don't have a reverse draft situation. :msp_ohmy:
CrappieKeith
Addicted to ArboristSite
The flue is the engine that drives the furnace or stove. The easier it is of keeping flue gases hot the slower to a point you can run the draft...although some unit are designed to have faster drafts to get the gasiers or cad systems to burn smoke.
A brick flue is typically known as a cold flue although rated for high heat residential bio mass burners.Size also comes into play as does length.
A brick flue is typically known as a cold flue although rated for high heat residential bio mass burners.Size also comes into play as does length.
lampmfg
ArboristSite.com Sponsor
The efficiencies aren't affected by the type of chimney as long as it's a class A. The stove naturally produces a a draft of .02-.06, but also comes with a barometric damper which is set so the stove doesn't exceed .06. This is not recommended for a stove the produces smoke because it will condense your creosote right in the flue pipe or chimney, which is why our design is so revolutionary.
When we had our testing completed it was done with a class A stainless steel chimney, but we have a block and tile one here at the plant which we use for testing and get the same results.:biggrin:
indiansprings
Firewood Purveyor
I'm far from an expert on ANY wood furnace or stove, but being in the firewood business do have a pretty good idea on how much wood actually gets burned by customers.
Claiming to heat a 3200 sq ft house on a total of five cord in this milder Missouri climate would be laughable. I don't care what kind of stove or furnace is being used and that is with seasoned hickory or red/white oak not a wood that produces less btu's cord. Any one who claims to do that is either using some other source of back up heat or is walking around the house in coveralls. I have had customers tell me how little wood they will be needing when they first put a stove/furnace in based on mfg's claims, and then I hear them gripe and complain after they surpass that amount for the third time.
People better do their homework before buying any wood burning appliance, because from my stand point there is more bogus claims/false advertising/baseless claims about actual efficiency of wood burners than you can shake a stick at. EPA test on a furnace today means nothing as I understand it there is no approved test for a furnace, just stoves. Even worse is some of the claims by OWB mfgs, there are some really good ones on the market, that based on actual wood usage are efficient, then there are some fly by night made OWB's we can't haul enough wood to the customers. I've seen cracked doors, cracked water jackets, warped fireboxes, it might be a good idea to call one of the larger firewood suppliers in your area to ask what brands customers are most happy with. There certainly isn't anyone holding most of these companies accountable for some of the outrageous claims that are being made. I know my home (six years old) nine inch thick outside walls, six inches of cellulose insulation, one inch styrofoam insulation board, house wrap with brick and 30" of blown cellulose in the attic in SW Missouri could not be heated with five cord and it has high efficiency window and doors that were well chinked around with insulation, taped and caulked around,nor do I have any customers using less than five cord. I'd sure have to see it done in the northern tier of states to believe it.
Keith has been a valuable source of information/contributor on here for a long time, answers questions for anyone, never pushes his product, just ask that folks look at all the facts before purchasing their needs.
In my former life I bought for a very large retailer, every product has to be tested by an independent lab, we had to set up our own facility because so many of the lab test that were provided by suppliers were bogus. We also found that we had to pull random production samples as mfgs were guilty of sending one off units for testing to get approval and ship product not to the standard that was tested. Having witnessed this for 18 years I am highly skeptical of any lab test. It's even worse for product made offshore, how do you think all the product that gets recalled that is made in China gets by. It just takes a couple thousand to get any lab result you want in China. Maybe when the new federal standard comes out in 2014, there will be some truth in advertising, and the feds need to pull random samples and hold companies accountable for the claims that are made.
Claiming to heat a 3200 sq ft house on a total of five cord in this milder Missouri climate would be laughable. I don't care what kind of stove or furnace is being used and that is with seasoned hickory or red/white oak not a wood that produces less btu's cord. Any one who claims to do that is either using some other source of back up heat or is walking around the house in coveralls. I have had customers tell me how little wood they will be needing when they first put a stove/furnace in based on mfg's claims, and then I hear them gripe and complain after they surpass that amount for the third time.
People better do their homework before buying any wood burning appliance, because from my stand point there is more bogus claims/false advertising/baseless claims about actual efficiency of wood burners than you can shake a stick at. EPA test on a furnace today means nothing as I understand it there is no approved test for a furnace, just stoves. Even worse is some of the claims by OWB mfgs, there are some really good ones on the market, that based on actual wood usage are efficient, then there are some fly by night made OWB's we can't haul enough wood to the customers. I've seen cracked doors, cracked water jackets, warped fireboxes, it might be a good idea to call one of the larger firewood suppliers in your area to ask what brands customers are most happy with. There certainly isn't anyone holding most of these companies accountable for some of the outrageous claims that are being made. I know my home (six years old) nine inch thick outside walls, six inches of cellulose insulation, one inch styrofoam insulation board, house wrap with brick and 30" of blown cellulose in the attic in SW Missouri could not be heated with five cord and it has high efficiency window and doors that were well chinked around with insulation, taped and caulked around,nor do I have any customers using less than five cord. I'd sure have to see it done in the northern tier of states to believe it.
Keith has been a valuable source of information/contributor on here for a long time, answers questions for anyone, never pushes his product, just ask that folks look at all the facts before purchasing their needs.
In my former life I bought for a very large retailer, every product has to be tested by an independent lab, we had to set up our own facility because so many of the lab test that were provided by suppliers were bogus. We also found that we had to pull random production samples as mfgs were guilty of sending one off units for testing to get approval and ship product not to the standard that was tested. Having witnessed this for 18 years I am highly skeptical of any lab test. It's even worse for product made offshore, how do you think all the product that gets recalled that is made in China gets by. It just takes a couple thousand to get any lab result you want in China. Maybe when the new federal standard comes out in 2014, there will be some truth in advertising, and the feds need to pull random samples and hold companies accountable for the claims that are made.
Hedgerow
HACK
I think this is why Keith always says you better get a big enough unit...
:waaaht:
CrappieKeith
Addicted to ArboristSite
To start...not picking on your product...just your numbers.
.02-.06 is a wide range...to jack up the draft speed means your putting more heat up the flue..needed for colder masonry flues. A faster draft means more heat up the flue and less heat in the home.
Efficiency is a percentage..the more heat out the flue the less efficient it is. There are only so many btu's per lb of wood. You can't have it both ways...
Take a pop can out of the fridge on a hot day and go outside. The can was dry...now it's wet.
Air can condense...hot against cold will cool the air(gas) and liquefy.Any wood burner has gases being vented and if they cool they will condense. That is unless you live in a world where 60 degree water can freeze...yes we live by laws of physics. There's no changing them.
Just looking at continuity of operation where numbers are pretty solid...burning #2 fuel oil.
Setting the draft at .03" of water column says you'll be at 400 degree stack temp.Of coarse there's also a CO2 setting but if we take trace to 0 smoke that makes that 80%.
If we increase draft speeds the stack temps jump to 450 with eff at 78.25 then 500 with eff at 76.5 then 550 eff at 74.75 then 600 and eff at 73 and so on.
You can see with every 50 degree increase in flue gas temps being vented as the BDR would be changed starting at .03" the less efficient the unit becomes.
.02" to .06" is a wide range...normal drafts unimpeded are up around .08'-.09" .At .06" the stack would never build creosote...not with temps over 800 degrees....but the efficiency is long gone....oh 1more thing..to run fast drafts really limits the heat exchangers ability to exchange the heat.
To conclude I'll call BS again....the numbers do not add up.
I've had long talks with several Fed. approved testing facilities. They all agree on what I've just laid out.
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lampmfg
ArboristSite.com Sponsor
(Indiansprings) I doubt that you have ever dealt with a furnace that is burning 99% of the time with no smoke in the flue and a low internal flue temperature of around 300 degrees.
We wanted to get as accurate of information possible for advertising and in turn a competitive advantage with the public. We want folks to look at the facts also so we had it tested by the leading certified INDEPENDENT testing lab in the world INTETEK, which used the procedure that is going to be used in 2014 required by the EPA. Any furnaces that would like to see how they measure up can have the testing done and see how easy it is to pull one over on Intertek. Everyone of our units is manufactured to the same standard and we would welcome any proof otherwise.
My dad (Daryl Lamppa - Owner and Designer of the Kuuma line) has a 3,200 square foot house with 6" walls and very good insulation. His backup source of heat is electricity for which the monthly bill actually declines slightly in the winter time, because he's not heating his water as much. He only purchased 5 cords of wood last year and still had a small amount left over. Call Neilsen Firewood Service Ely, MN at (218) 365-5056 and ask how much gets delivered to his home on Lake Vermillion (Northern, MN - VERY COLD). It doesn't do us any good to make up numbers because it would just bite us in the tail with unhappy customers. :frown:
Here is a thread with some VaporFire owners you so you can ask them yourself. ********** | Wood Stoves, Fireplace, Pellet Stoves, Gas Stoves and More - Forums!
I also agree with what you say about Keith, because he does a great job of helping out many others on the forums, and not just to push his products.:msp_tongue:
We wanted to get as accurate of information possible for advertising and in turn a competitive advantage with the public. We want folks to look at the facts also so we had it tested by the leading certified INDEPENDENT testing lab in the world INTETEK, which used the procedure that is going to be used in 2014 required by the EPA. Any furnaces that would like to see how they measure up can have the testing done and see how easy it is to pull one over on Intertek. Everyone of our units is manufactured to the same standard and we would welcome any proof otherwise.
My dad (Daryl Lamppa - Owner and Designer of the Kuuma line) has a 3,200 square foot house with 6" walls and very good insulation. His backup source of heat is electricity for which the monthly bill actually declines slightly in the winter time, because he's not heating his water as much. He only purchased 5 cords of wood last year and still had a small amount left over. Call Neilsen Firewood Service Ely, MN at (218) 365-5056 and ask how much gets delivered to his home on Lake Vermillion (Northern, MN - VERY COLD). It doesn't do us any good to make up numbers because it would just bite us in the tail with unhappy customers. :frown:
Here is a thread with some VaporFire owners you so you can ask them yourself. ********** | Wood Stoves, Fireplace, Pellet Stoves, Gas Stoves and More - Forums!
I also agree with what you say about Keith, because he does a great job of helping out many others on the forums, and not just to push his products.:msp_tongue:
CrappieKeith
Addicted to ArboristSite
Geeze....not to nit pick......you said 300 degree stack temp...if it cycles or drops just 50-80 degrees the flue gases turn to liquid...that's not much variance. If moisture content is a bit off you could really get into black gold pouring out of your pipe. Wetter wood by a little will cause cooler flue gases.
We can run our furnace slower too,but who in the world is that anal about wood moisture...as a whole not many.
You also stated...and I quote..
The efficiencies aren't affected by the type of chimney as long as it's a class A. The stove naturally produces a a draft of .02-.06, but also comes with a barometric damper which is set so the stove doesn't exceed .06.
you surely will have a 300 degree stack temp at .02" of w.c. ,but you also said up to .06"....some folks would say that is over firing and might split steels.
Your stack temps will also be around 600 degrees. That drops the efficiency to not even comply with energy star.
I called...guy said 6 cords...sounded like he was reading off of a brochure.....nice enough fellow though.
We can run our furnace slower too,but who in the world is that anal about wood moisture...as a whole not many.
You also stated...and I quote..
The efficiencies aren't affected by the type of chimney as long as it's a class A. The stove naturally produces a a draft of .02-.06, but also comes with a barometric damper which is set so the stove doesn't exceed .06.
you surely will have a 300 degree stack temp at .02" of w.c. ,but you also said up to .06"....some folks would say that is over firing and might split steels.
Your stack temps will also be around 600 degrees. That drops the efficiency to not even comply with energy star.
I called...guy said 6 cords...sounded like he was reading off of a brochure.....nice enough fellow though.
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lampmfg
ArboristSite.com Sponsor
.02-.06 is the natural draft created buy the CONTINUOUS BURN furnace. So during the testing it started off at .02 when cold and warmed up to nothing higher than .06, which our barometric damper is set at to curtail extra draft. On average it was around the .03-.04. and when we say our efficiency numbers they are going off the entire burn cycle.
Keith, I don't think you understand that we couldn't have the low flue temperatures of around (varies) 300 degrees with our proven high efficiency if there was smoke (which there isn't)!!
There is no condensation until the water vapor and carbon dioxide hits the atmoshpere, which is why our VaporFire owner's see a white vapor steam when temperatures are below 32 degrees.
With a continuous burn stove there is very little fluctuation in the flue temperature as it burns form the front to the back. It slowly goes up and slowly goes down. If you have a furnace with a wide open draft followed by a closed position you get the big fluctuation along with condensation, which is a problem that we don't have...
P.S. That 6 cords was delivered to the shop in Tower (larger and less efficient than our house) on 10/4/11. There was only 4 cords delivered to our house on Lake Vermilion, because we still had some left from last year. The bill date was 7/24/11 (4 Cords of birch-$600) Like I said before lying will only get you in trouble. :msp_biggrin:
Keith, I don't think you understand that we couldn't have the low flue temperatures of around (varies) 300 degrees with our proven high efficiency if there was smoke (which there isn't)!!
There is no condensation until the water vapor and carbon dioxide hits the atmoshpere, which is why our VaporFire owner's see a white vapor steam when temperatures are below 32 degrees.
With a continuous burn stove there is very little fluctuation in the flue temperature as it burns form the front to the back. It slowly goes up and slowly goes down. If you have a furnace with a wide open draft followed by a closed position you get the big fluctuation along with condensation, which is a problem that we don't have...
P.S. That 6 cords was delivered to the shop in Tower (larger and less efficient than our house) on 10/4/11. There was only 4 cords delivered to our house on Lake Vermilion, because we still had some left from last year. The bill date was 7/24/11 (4 Cords of birch-$600) Like I said before lying will only get you in trouble. :msp_biggrin:
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laynes69
Addicted to ArboristSite
I can say even though I have a different furnace than lamp, I observe the same thing with our furnace. Theres an active fire that remains in the firebox which burns the smoke, and produces an even burn. During that burn theres a peak then it slowly drops. Theres no on and off. We see steam from our chimney when it's below 32 and above there's nothing. It's very important to run an insulated liner or chimney that's sized correctly due to the lower temperatures. We do not see condensation with our setup.
CrappieKeith
Addicted to ArboristSite
What the heck do I know..you said call I did..he said 6 cords to the house and 6 cords to the shop ...every year. We record all calls...I could get the recording and post that link.
if it looks like a duck,quacks like a duck and walks like a duck...chances are it's a duck.
to call me a liar...again I'll call BS.
I've done nothing but be as forthright as possible on this forum for over 1700 posts.
if it looks like a duck,quacks like a duck and walks like a duck...chances are it's a duck.
to call me a liar...again I'll call BS.
I've done nothing but be as forthright as possible on this forum for over 1700 posts.
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Secondary air is not dampered or restricted in EPA certified or high efficiency furnace. Primary air is dampered and controlled by the thermostat. However even primary air intake is never dampered 100% even when the thermostat doesn't call for heat.
This always allows a certain amount of oxygen to keep a 'clean burn' going n
This always allows a certain amount of oxygen to keep a 'clean burn' going n
lampmfg
ArboristSite.com Sponsor
I'm not calling you a liar and I'm glad you called him, because I'm not one either as you can see from the attached the invoices. If your still not satisfied and since you record all calls why don't you three way call him and me (800-358-2049) so he can confirm where each load was dropped off at, because they are over 5 miles apart. :msp_tongue:
View attachment 202303
All I'm saying is:
PROVEN high efficiency=GOOD for consumers (spend less money on heating/necessity)
PROVEN low emissions=GREAT for the environment (less pollution/better air to breathe)
So if your furnace is both you get the best of both worlds!!
I know you will find something wrong with our product because you aren't selling it... What more would you like us to do? We spent around $20,000 (Not an easy decision especially when the economy was starting to tank) to have it independently tested by Intertek who is the #1 in the world at what they do so we could back up what we say. Not only that but we posted a PDF of the actual tests on our website, which is something that I have not seen from anyone else so I think it's a pretty ballsy thing to do!! If you got an extra $20,000 laying around and think the testing process is a sham or easy make my day, but just make sure you post the results.
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