SilverBlue
Addicted to ArboristSite
OK I got the word doc you sent but a video or pics would be helpful. Er you know, for those other guys :angel:
SRT Technique
- Thread starter MasterBlaster
- Start date
Help Support Arborist Forum:
Lumberjack
Banned
Use a long rope. SRT's ropes are no longer than DbRT it you think about it, because on DbRT the two ends must come down to the ground anyways. Also you can tie 2 or more ropes together, by putting the knots on the side that you aint climbing. With my setup, I am good for around 170 if you put the knots on the other side of the rope.
To give you an idea of how much I use SRT, I only where spikes on removals when I am chunking down the spar. That does violate Butch's 2nd rule, but it works for me. I remove all the limbs that I have to, and then put the spikes on so I can stand on the trunk.
Yesterday when I was doin those Ceders I went to the top, tied in, cut some limbs, sent out the top, and then came down to the middle using DbRT so I could retrieve my line and retie it where I was. That is the only time I think that I will use DbRT.
Carl
Last edited:
Gord
ArboristSite Operative
Maybe the holidays are getting to me as well but all the talk of the advancement of SRT is getting on my nerves. SRT is very impractical in a high percentage of the many many unique situations the arborist industry as a whole must deal with. Some situations are best dealt with using SRT but why would anyone want to throw away the entire evolution of the DdRT system? Trad systems are supremely versatile and reliable, SRT systems are, in many ways, limited.
Tom you make it sound as though arborists are in the dark ages because every other rope discipline besides ours uses SRT. This is unfair. List one other discipline in which the people use their ropes as we do. Hanging off the side of a building is nothing like what we do. Nor is rappeling into a cave or manhole or down a cliff. I'm unaware of any other profession or sport in which people use ropes so intimately for support, balance, rappeling, ascension, positioning et al.
I feel that SRT will gain popularity amongst certain types of arbo's who do specific types of work, however, DdRT is here to stay for the most of us.
Tom you make it sound as though arborists are in the dark ages because every other rope discipline besides ours uses SRT. This is unfair. List one other discipline in which the people use their ropes as we do. Hanging off the side of a building is nothing like what we do. Nor is rappeling into a cave or manhole or down a cliff. I'm unaware of any other profession or sport in which people use ropes so intimately for support, balance, rappeling, ascension, positioning et al.
I feel that SRT will gain popularity amongst certain types of arbo's who do specific types of work, however, DdRT is here to stay for the most of us.
Dan F
ArboristSite Operative
I've always wondered about that too...
I've seen VERY anal rappeling instructors that would about have a heart attack if you stepped on the rope, and here arborists are pulling it under tension across bark? Granted we're talking about different kinds of ropes, but dirt is still dirt.
I guess that's what surprised me the most when I took that urban arboriculture class. Nobody even batted an eye about the rope having fine particles of bark ground into it. I guess that's why you rotate your ropes and keep a careful eye on the SWL....
Dan
Lumberjack
Banned
I make a big deal about it when my ground guys step on on the rope, part of being a reppeling instructor i guess. Today I about popped a vein when a painter ran over my rope because he was to impatient to hive my groundie 5 seconds to clear it for him. That really got me pissed. I understand about grit getting in the ropes, but steping on them is unneccesary, and driving over them, exspecially when on assfault (unsure of spelling), gets me hotter than boiling oil.
Oh and I try to wash my ropes every other week or so depending on use. During the summer (long hours) I washed them once a week, to keep them clean.
Carl
Oh and I try to wash my ropes every other week or so depending on use. During the summer (long hours) I washed them once a week, to keep them clean.
Carl
Lumberjack
Banned
Gord
I aint to be difficult but when is DbRT pratical when SRT aint? I have never really worked off DbRT, as you probably aint worked on SRT. I am just trying to understand your side.
Carl
I aint to be difficult but when is DbRT pratical when SRT aint? I have never really worked off DbRT, as you probably aint worked on SRT. I am just trying to understand your side.
Carl
MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
DbRT RULES.
Lumberjack
Banned
Why Butch, that is what I am asking. I never have used it, and I started on SRT. Does it rule because it is the norm or is what yall are used to?
Carl
Your guy can break too!
<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15_1_49.gif' border=0></a>
Carl
Your guy can break too!
<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15_1_49.gif' border=0></a>
MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
K.I.S.S. 
Lumberjack
Banned
Not the answer I had in mind. To me K.I.S.S. is SRT that is what I've always used. Yall rave about DbRT so I want an honest answer on why it is better, not an opion that it is simpler because it is what you already know. I want to know if I am missin something by not using DbRT.
Carl
<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_1_121.gif' border=0></a>
Carl
<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_1_121.gif' border=0></a>
Tom Dunlap
Addicted to ArboristSite
Geez, lighten up guys. I'm not criticizing your choice of pickup or hunting dog.
Think of this discussion like any education. This is a buffet or pot luck. Lots of things to sample but no one is holding a gun to
your head to eat anything that you don't want to. But, be polite, if you don't like the dish that is brought to share, keep your
nasty comments to yourself. If you think Bill's soup is better than Jane's, give some reasons, not just blow out opinions.
There are many other working rope professions that move up and down besides arbos. Low angle rescues, stage rigging,
industrial inspections. Spend some time on Google looking up working rope, IRATA and other topics and you'll see that arbos
do have a unique work arena but not one that can ONLY use DdRT.
Butch is claiming the DdRT is simpler than SRT. How so? In SRT's simplest form all it takes is a rope, accessory cord loop for
ascending and a descending backup and an HMS biner for a Munter rappel. From there its a 1:1 like I've already described.
Butch has also told us that he is the best climber in his area. I have no reason to doubt him or to think that he is boasting. But he
also says that no one else in his area knows what a figure eight is. That says that the climbers he knows are not that advanced.
No criticism, just an observation. In my kit I've got probably seven different descending tools without counting the various
HMS biners or body wrap rappels that I could configure. I would look like a space alien to Butch's buddies.
Over the time that I've been working on my SRT system I've been very critical of the system. On the one hand I choose
something because I like it and find it easy. But then I think of how that solution might translate into the everyday tree climbing
work. This isn't a process that's happened over months. My use of SRT started probably seven or more years ago.
Gord thinks that DdRT is the most practical solution to tree climbing. Maybe because that has been the tradition for this first
century of arboriculture. Practicality is based on options and knowledge. The more options the easier the work can get done.
When did I ever advocate throwing out DdRT? Quote chapter and verse before you make statements like that. Describe a
situation where SRT can't solve the same problem that DdRT does. Versatility, reliability and safety are concerns for both
disciplines. Neither system has a corner on the market for any of those topics. For each part, they have pluses and minuses.
The climber has to be knowledgeable and skilled in order to weigh out the tradeoffs. Those tradeoffs aren't major, just little
variations.
Arbos aren't in the Dark Ages but we do work in a very narrow slot. There are many less arbos working on ropes than all of
the other working rope professions and sports. Ours is a profession that is very hard on equipment. Very rough and tumble for
the most part. Also, very loose and casual about gear use and care. According to some Search and Rescue protocols, one soft
gear is exposed to a rescue load, the gear is destroyed. That might sound extreme but that's their accepted protocols. And
most of their uses and loads can be calculated and logged. We beat and abuse ropes with no good idea of how many times we
"bend the paper clip".
Most of the arbo industry will always work off DdRT. But, as years go by, more and more will start to use SRT. It's already
happening. The conversion starts when a climber sees how much easier it is to access the crown on a non-isolated SRT system.
Then they start to use SRT to go up and make single cuts. Soon, they start to work out, then up and down. In no time, they're
leaving DdRT.
The way I measure ease is by the amount of calories burned to do a job. If I could work with a physiologist to measure the
number of calories burned doing a work climb with each system I'm convinced that SRT would come out significantly ahead.
Ease shouldn't be confused with easy. Something is easy because a person is skilled and understands the process. Look at any
trade or discipline. I could only wish that I could write poetry as easily as Springsteen, or play the cello like Yo Yo Ma. Not
going to happen. I climb trees.
Here's a link to the article that I wrote for TCI on SRT access. There are some pics and illustrations:
http://www.natlarb.com/content/pubs/September 2002 TCI - Single Rope Technique.htm
Here are some links to give you insights into other working rope disciplines.
http://www.irata.org/
http://www.rigg-access.com/
http://www.rat.ca/index.htm
http://sarbc.org/
All the best!
Tom
Think of this discussion like any education. This is a buffet or pot luck. Lots of things to sample but no one is holding a gun to
your head to eat anything that you don't want to. But, be polite, if you don't like the dish that is brought to share, keep your
nasty comments to yourself. If you think Bill's soup is better than Jane's, give some reasons, not just blow out opinions.
There are many other working rope professions that move up and down besides arbos. Low angle rescues, stage rigging,
industrial inspections. Spend some time on Google looking up working rope, IRATA and other topics and you'll see that arbos
do have a unique work arena but not one that can ONLY use DdRT.
Butch is claiming the DdRT is simpler than SRT. How so? In SRT's simplest form all it takes is a rope, accessory cord loop for
ascending and a descending backup and an HMS biner for a Munter rappel. From there its a 1:1 like I've already described.
Butch has also told us that he is the best climber in his area. I have no reason to doubt him or to think that he is boasting. But he
also says that no one else in his area knows what a figure eight is. That says that the climbers he knows are not that advanced.
No criticism, just an observation. In my kit I've got probably seven different descending tools without counting the various
HMS biners or body wrap rappels that I could configure. I would look like a space alien to Butch's buddies.
Over the time that I've been working on my SRT system I've been very critical of the system. On the one hand I choose
something because I like it and find it easy. But then I think of how that solution might translate into the everyday tree climbing
work. This isn't a process that's happened over months. My use of SRT started probably seven or more years ago.
Gord thinks that DdRT is the most practical solution to tree climbing. Maybe because that has been the tradition for this first
century of arboriculture. Practicality is based on options and knowledge. The more options the easier the work can get done.
When did I ever advocate throwing out DdRT? Quote chapter and verse before you make statements like that. Describe a
situation where SRT can't solve the same problem that DdRT does. Versatility, reliability and safety are concerns for both
disciplines. Neither system has a corner on the market for any of those topics. For each part, they have pluses and minuses.
The climber has to be knowledgeable and skilled in order to weigh out the tradeoffs. Those tradeoffs aren't major, just little
variations.
Arbos aren't in the Dark Ages but we do work in a very narrow slot. There are many less arbos working on ropes than all of
the other working rope professions and sports. Ours is a profession that is very hard on equipment. Very rough and tumble for
the most part. Also, very loose and casual about gear use and care. According to some Search and Rescue protocols, one soft
gear is exposed to a rescue load, the gear is destroyed. That might sound extreme but that's their accepted protocols. And
most of their uses and loads can be calculated and logged. We beat and abuse ropes with no good idea of how many times we
"bend the paper clip".
Most of the arbo industry will always work off DdRT. But, as years go by, more and more will start to use SRT. It's already
happening. The conversion starts when a climber sees how much easier it is to access the crown on a non-isolated SRT system.
Then they start to use SRT to go up and make single cuts. Soon, they start to work out, then up and down. In no time, they're
leaving DdRT.
The way I measure ease is by the amount of calories burned to do a job. If I could work with a physiologist to measure the
number of calories burned doing a work climb with each system I'm convinced that SRT would come out significantly ahead.
Ease shouldn't be confused with easy. Something is easy because a person is skilled and understands the process. Look at any
trade or discipline. I could only wish that I could write poetry as easily as Springsteen, or play the cello like Yo Yo Ma. Not
going to happen. I climb trees.
Here's a link to the article that I wrote for TCI on SRT access. There are some pics and illustrations:
http://www.natlarb.com/content/pubs/September 2002 TCI - Single Rope Technique.htm
Here are some links to give you insights into other working rope disciplines.
http://www.irata.org/
http://www.rigg-access.com/
http://www.rat.ca/index.htm
http://sarbc.org/
All the best!
Tom
Gord
ArboristSite Operative
I apologize if my post came off as a personal assault on you Tom but I didn't mean it that way at all. And I didn't elaborate on my reasons for feeling that SRT has too many shortcomings to use exclusively as I think you already no them, they're cited everytime one of these discussions comes up.
I spend a good amount of my time in single stem conifers, not something that a lot of arbo's do but here it's the norm. To set a throwline at a height that can be worked off of is out of the question. A line must be set over several limbs, often where the spar is only 4-6" in diameter. The only practical way to set this line is to climb up there. I often use SRT for ascension into the canopy, due to the fact that it is indeed quicker, as well as the downsloping lower limbs on the trees rule out DdRT. Once I climb to the top it doesn't make sense to me to feed my line over my TIP to the ground and have my ground fella tie it off to the base of the tree when I already have my trad climbing setup all ready to go. I select my TIP and begin working my way down the tree, thinning, deadwooding, crown-cleaning, whatever. Often my rope is not long enough to reach the ground. Instead of telling my groundie to untie the rope at the base, pulling the rope thru, selecting a new TIP and feeding the rope through it, then getting my groundie to retie the tail off to the base; I can simply unclip the spliced end of my line, pull it thru the crotch and retie in at my new TIP. And I could go on and on.
Tom the only beef I have with your promoting SRT is you make it sound as tho any progressive climber will eventually switch to SRT. I consider myself fairly progressive and yet although I've worked SRT in a few different situations and it's been convenient in some ways I'd never adopt the technique full time.
And although the professions you cited do involve upward and downward movement on ropes they're still nothing like what we do in regard to angular movement, off vertical climbing postions and limbwalking-type scenarios.
In regard to limbwalking, DdRT offers a great advantage in that when the running part is pulled down the standing part in turn puts an upward pull on the climber, giving him or her a very effective balancing aid. SRT cannot offer this.
I do appreciate everyone's efforts to advance the techniques, and I think these dscussions are beneficial to all in each of our progressions.
I spend a good amount of my time in single stem conifers, not something that a lot of arbo's do but here it's the norm. To set a throwline at a height that can be worked off of is out of the question. A line must be set over several limbs, often where the spar is only 4-6" in diameter. The only practical way to set this line is to climb up there. I often use SRT for ascension into the canopy, due to the fact that it is indeed quicker, as well as the downsloping lower limbs on the trees rule out DdRT. Once I climb to the top it doesn't make sense to me to feed my line over my TIP to the ground and have my ground fella tie it off to the base of the tree when I already have my trad climbing setup all ready to go. I select my TIP and begin working my way down the tree, thinning, deadwooding, crown-cleaning, whatever. Often my rope is not long enough to reach the ground. Instead of telling my groundie to untie the rope at the base, pulling the rope thru, selecting a new TIP and feeding the rope through it, then getting my groundie to retie the tail off to the base; I can simply unclip the spliced end of my line, pull it thru the crotch and retie in at my new TIP. And I could go on and on.
Tom the only beef I have with your promoting SRT is you make it sound as tho any progressive climber will eventually switch to SRT. I consider myself fairly progressive and yet although I've worked SRT in a few different situations and it's been convenient in some ways I'd never adopt the technique full time.
And although the professions you cited do involve upward and downward movement on ropes they're still nothing like what we do in regard to angular movement, off vertical climbing postions and limbwalking-type scenarios.
In regard to limbwalking, DdRT offers a great advantage in that when the running part is pulled down the standing part in turn puts an upward pull on the climber, giving him or her a very effective balancing aid. SRT cannot offer this.
I do appreciate everyone's efforts to advance the techniques, and I think these dscussions are beneficial to all in each of our progressions.
Nickrosis
Manned by Boderators
< rant >
I think that any progressive person should learn to use e-mail.
I think that any progressive person should ________.
We can all have our own opinions. I don't see why you should have a beef with someone for having a vision. And besides, how do you know what people are going to use as a technique? None of us can speak for another person. If SRT becomes more popular, great! You should be happy for those people. If it's a safety concern, that's different, but if people find something they like, there's no reason to tell them that SRT is ethically or morally or socioeconomically wrong.
Essentially, if you can't find a safety reason for why someone shouldn't use SRT, you shouldn't discourage anyone from using it. If it wasn't a competitive technique, it wouldn't be used. Set the beef down or cook it up and eat it. Just don't let it rot. < /rant >
MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
Thats the KISS part I was talking about.
If it ain't broke, why fix it?
Kneejerk Bombas
ArboristSite King
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2001
- Messages
- 36,971
- Reaction score
- 9,981
I would like to know how you change from ascending mode to descending mode.
If I have it right, going up the rope you might use a handled ascender, a micro ascender (backup), and a Pantin. Then going down just use an I'd.
What happens in trees where there is a need for a lot of moving up and down. How do you switch?
Can you use the Pantin effectively below an I'd?
An attitude that asks: "If it ain't broke, why fix it?" keeps a climber using a tautline hitch and stuck in old school forever.
If I have it right, going up the rope you might use a handled ascender, a micro ascender (backup), and a Pantin. Then going down just use an I'd.
What happens in trees where there is a need for a lot of moving up and down. How do you switch?
Can you use the Pantin effectively below an I'd?
An attitude that asks: "If it ain't broke, why fix it?" keeps a climber using a tautline hitch and stuck in old school forever.
SilverBlue
Addicted to ArboristSite
Why fix it? Cause that’s the nature of the beast. Innovation brings progression in techniques. You have to imagine the new equipment that will come on the market in the coming years that will make SRT more attractive, new ropes and mechanical devices will be the factor. And we know how Tom has the scoop on the latest products before we even hear a word about them.
Is this highschool. Who cares about popular?? Our game is about efficiency and safety. Save me time ($$) and energy ($$). I am all ears. Glad to see there are some people thinking outside the box.
Tree work has a 3rd deminsion that other disciplines lack. I am sure that is why it is still using the techniques that it uses. I am also sure that is why I am addicted to tree work and not tower climbing.
What about those snazzy new systems using a DdRT off of a SRT?
SRT has not blown my hair back but it is also due to the fact I work monsterously wide trees that are short (shorter ascents). I believe that when I move next month, SRT will be a welcome member in my tool box.
Tom Dunlap
Addicted to ArboristSite
I find SRT in conifers to be the easiest application. Heres the way I set mine up. I'll say that the trees here in Minneapolis aren't
as big as might be found on the West coast. That said, when I have climbed west coast trees, SRT has been my choice for the
most part.
Set line using Big Shot as high as possible. Most times I'll do some isolating of my access end of the SRT line. I don't care what
the other end does as long as it is secure. If my TIP is higher than my BS shot I use any means available to move up. Long
lanyard, short DdRT line, throwline in the tree. If I do use a throwline I might set the access line higher as I go, depending on how
the line threads through the limbs. Once I get to my TIP I might have my anchored end untied and send down my end of the rope
to make the rope go through a straighter path to the ground. What I don't want is so much rope friction that I won't be able to pull
the rope out later. If my rope is snaking too much, I'll clear it and set a lower TIP once I move down lower. All this time, the rope
stays anchored at the base.
If I have to move back up the rope and I'm not able to climb the tree I have to set up some kind of RADS system:
[If the link doesn't work, use Google to search on RADS]
http://www.rescueresponse.com/html/...cueresponse.com/html/news02-02/highlight.html
I've used a number of different ascenders for the top in the RADS. I'm going to use a Ropeman, small biner and pulley. Another option is to use the orange sheave that Petzl sells to slip onto a biner. My goal is to find a compact system. Another option for the upper is a Mini-Traxion since it would do double duty. The RADS isn't considered life support so the gear doesn't need to meet the 5k# rule of ANSI. In one combo I used a keychain biner instead of the pulley with a loop of cord tied into a klemheist. Cheap and compact too. Fottlocking the tail or using the Pantin will make ascent easy but 2:1, if you ascend using the etrier or a foot loop like in the illustration it is 1:1.
My prediction of DdRT becoming eight track is only a prediction. Not any kind of judgement about the skills and techniques of climbers. In this changing profession we might have some other system that hasn't even been thought up now in place by then. Look back ten years and see where you've come from.
Tom
as big as might be found on the West coast. That said, when I have climbed west coast trees, SRT has been my choice for the
most part.
Set line using Big Shot as high as possible. Most times I'll do some isolating of my access end of the SRT line. I don't care what
the other end does as long as it is secure. If my TIP is higher than my BS shot I use any means available to move up. Long
lanyard, short DdRT line, throwline in the tree. If I do use a throwline I might set the access line higher as I go, depending on how
the line threads through the limbs. Once I get to my TIP I might have my anchored end untied and send down my end of the rope
to make the rope go through a straighter path to the ground. What I don't want is so much rope friction that I won't be able to pull
the rope out later. If my rope is snaking too much, I'll clear it and set a lower TIP once I move down lower. All this time, the rope
stays anchored at the base.
If I have to move back up the rope and I'm not able to climb the tree I have to set up some kind of RADS system:
[If the link doesn't work, use Google to search on RADS]
http://www.rescueresponse.com/html/...cueresponse.com/html/news02-02/highlight.html
I've used a number of different ascenders for the top in the RADS. I'm going to use a Ropeman, small biner and pulley. Another option is to use the orange sheave that Petzl sells to slip onto a biner. My goal is to find a compact system. Another option for the upper is a Mini-Traxion since it would do double duty. The RADS isn't considered life support so the gear doesn't need to meet the 5k# rule of ANSI. In one combo I used a keychain biner instead of the pulley with a loop of cord tied into a klemheist. Cheap and compact too. Fottlocking the tail or using the Pantin will make ascent easy but 2:1, if you ascend using the etrier or a foot loop like in the illustration it is 1:1.
My prediction of DdRT becoming eight track is only a prediction. Not any kind of judgement about the skills and techniques of climbers. In this changing profession we might have some other system that hasn't even been thought up now in place by then. Look back ten years and see where you've come from.
Tom
murphy4trees
Addicted to ArboristSite
Diferent climbing situations favor different techniques... And yes there is a lot of inertia in the evolution of climbing techniques...
I just spent two months in Virginia... I doubt 1 in 25 knew about the Blake or 1 in 100 knew about advanced friction hitches... I didn't see a hard hat down there, except on JPS... I wonder what things will be like there in 10 years ???
I just spent two months in Virginia... I doubt 1 in 25 knew about the Blake or 1 in 100 knew about advanced friction hitches... I didn't see a hard hat down there, except on JPS... I wonder what things will be like there in 10 years ???
SilverBlue
Addicted to ArboristSite
What do they use Daniel?
I used a KC* knot on my blue streak today for lack of extra equipment, instead of anything fancy and it worked just fine.Had a fun day actually.
Thanks Spydy!
I used a KC* knot on my blue streak today for lack of extra equipment, instead of anything fancy and it worked just fine.Had a fun day actually.
Thanks Spydy!
Last edited:
