training pics

[heartland]

Originally posted by murphy4trees
As far as saw positionioning I just noticed the AM ad to the left actually has some relevance to this post... the climber is keeping the saw about waist level.. it's easier to control and see what you're cutting when kept waist high... Also looks like he has a lanyard tied in just below the rigging sling and above the block and he's using a pull line.

Yup, next time I will definitely have the saw at waist level: I had to work too hard the way I had it in the pics (too high).
You are right about the AM ad on the left: looks like the lanyard is tied in below rigging... if that is the case, it contradicts what we learned. The rationale behind keeping both above the rigging point is simply to be away from the rigging. There is less chance of getting mixed up with the rigging when above vs. below.

Tim did you not use a pull line on the top of the spar?? Tough to tell how the tree was leaning from the pics..

No pull line used. In retrospect, it would have helped. Only thing to be cautious of when using a pull line is the physics of a "moment arm". Say your hinge is a bit too thick and the groundie on the other end really has to wrench to get the hinge over.... you end up with a lot of unneccesary torque. That torque energy has to be released somewhere: that "somewhere" will be the shaking spar. There is a fine line between all this. You have to balance things out.... If the hinge is done just right, the climber should be able to cut the backstrap and simply push it over - but in that case, a pull line should not create add a dangerous amount of torque.

btw - I left the backstrap and released it with my handsaw. Chainsaw was not running and therefore no noise to interfere with communication with my groundie.

 

[Kevin]

"Say your hinge is a bit too thick and the groundie on the other end really has to wrench to get the hinge over"

You should never exert too much force on the piece from the ground.
It would be better to take more wood out of the cut.

 

[mikecross23]

Awsome thread Heartland!!! Good timing too! I roped down a spar today for the first time. Everything went great and I just can't describe how good I felt when done. I took small pieces about 6' long and between 6" to 16". My dad has been working for me when needed and he's gettin' the rope thing down. He let everything run with ease while another groundie pulled w/ tag line to clear the bushes. Good starter tree because even if I messed up, there were only some inconspicuous bushes below. I was a little slow but hey, give this rookie a break.

This is a great thread to follow up my day and stomp some safety issues into my mellon!

Thanks Arbo Site folks.
-Mike-

 

[heartland]

Distance of Fall

Guys - here is what it says in my AM training guide. I'm pretty sure this is straight from Pete:

"One variable that almost always can be controlled is the distance of fall. If the piece falls a shorter distance, there will be less kinetic energy to convert to stretch in the rope, so the force will be lower. The rigging block can be tied up tightly to the stem, and as close to the cut as possible (allowing room for the climbing line and lanyard), without compromising safety.

Some people ask if the distance of fall can be affected by the way the wood is tied off above the cut. The answer is no, as long as the piece is tied so it can't flip over. With the half hitch anywhere below the center, the disance of fall will be the same. The piece can't flip if the marline hitch of half hitch is below the center of the piece.

There are a few safety issues here. Knowing that the half hitch can be anywhere below the center of the wood, it is not necessary to try to place it down near the cut. There is a chance you might nick the rigging line with a saw, or worse, the half hitch might come off the end of the pice as it falls. Putting it up higher might also allow you to set a line above a stub or crook on the piece, to be even more certain that it doesn't come off the end."

 

[rwilk]

great pictures, I own AM practical rigging videos and have found them helpful. I'm still waiting to do my first big wood rigging. Every time if say I'm going to rig a spar down, I end up being too tired after all the limbing, that I just fell the spar. I do have a large sweet gum that i have to do next week, and nowhere to fell it. I see about some pictures to post.

good job

just my thoughts

rwilk

 

[heartland]

Mike - give us the skinny

-how did you tie in?
-lanyard and climbing line above or below the block?
-borecut or traditional?
-which knots?
-what size rigging line?

 

[monkeypuzzle]

A 16'' x 6' stick, thats a big log dude. A great rope person is a MUST for this type of job,if you want it to be smooooooooth!

 

[mikecross23]

Originally posted by heartland
Mike - give us the skinny

-how did you tie in?
-lanyard and climbing line above or below the block?
-borecut or traditional?
-which knots?
-what size rigging line?

The tree had a good lean to it so that kept the pieces far from me and made for simple cuts. I don't have everything I need to be safely efficient at rigging yet, but this was the perfect chance to get some experience.

I tied in with a wire core lanyard and before making cuts choked the stalk w/ loop runner as secondary. I need to use my life line next time for critical situations, can't come down on a loop runner. Both were below a cmi steel pulley attached by a false crotch. I don't use my false crotches very much but I have two lenths and the shorter one fit perfect up top, but when it got thicker the larger one left some play in the system. With the hefty lean I just made one cut straight through. What's a proper cut for this situation? I did make kerf cuts just below the backside so the chunks wouldn't peel.

Tied off with a running bowline and I guess it would be called a half hitch. Looked like your pictures.

I have a couple three strand 1/2" ropes. Good for the light rigging I do but I felt like I was pushin' it today for the SWL.

I will be lookin' to get a good bull rope, block, slings and hopefully a porty soon! In the mean time I'll stick to the basics and learn a little before gettin' in over my head.

My old man enjoys working with me and has the time to devote to being my rope man when called upon. He's pickin' it up quick and I can depend on him for sure!

Let me hear what ya'll think.
-Mike-

 

[mikecross23]

Originally posted by monkeypuzzle
A 16'' x 6' stick, thats a big log dude. A great rope person is a MUST for this type of job,if you want it to be smooooooooth!

The 16" diameter was only at a few knotty crotches so for the most part the trunk was smaller than that. My dad did great letting them run to a perfect halt just above the shrubs.

I guess this is getto, but I wrapped a beach towl around the base of a nearby dogwood and put some duct tape to hold it on. Only took 1 and 1/2 wraps to 2 and a 1/2 wraps for the bigger stuff.

-Mike-

 

[murphy4trees]

Mike ...
You're scaring me....
What I think is you should always stay on a life line which can get you down in case of emergency..... that would be a choked climbing line here. Lose the steel pulley and get a rigging block.
Lose the towel and get a porta-wrap.
You already said you need all that stuff so just go out and get it... If you're thinking ALL that gear is expensive... you need to raise your prices.... A LOT!!!!

 

[mikecross23]

TRUE!

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Re: Distance of Fall

Originally posted by heartland
Guys - here is what it says in my AM training guide. I'm pretty sure this is straight from Pete:

"One variable that almost always can be controlled is the distance of fall. If the piece falls a shorter distance, there will be less kinetic energy to convert to stretch in the rope, so the force will be lower. ...."

Hands down i think the best way of doing that is delivering the load as far and slow as possible to the pretightened rigging on the hinge machine. Up, down or over, flexing on as much hinge as possible, gives most support and steering, on permissable arc dictated by faces. If a 16'spar tears off at 1:00 and starts free falling to the rig, that is a lot of force. But if you use a line like Daniel says in the highest leveraged position, and flex the hinge over with a wide face, with as much fibre as possible, maybe even violating the last few fibers with a handsaw (just to only severe as few as possible, to leave as many as possible), just till the groundies start tipping the spar over by pulling on the line. If the spar doesn't tear off till 3o'clock or so (sometimes 5o'clock, cutting the last fibres to release!)and free falling to riggin, that might have reduced the fall of the C.o.B. by 6'+; that is a lot less force. i beleive this makes more diffrence than notch size, rigging spacing etc.; i've refered to them here as another tweak; but believe the main prize is using the hinge machine to deliver the load as far as possible. i think that weight on the hinge puts 1x supported force on the spar, while weight on the rigging puts 2x supported force on the spar, inccreasing the reasoning of tweaking the hinge travel most, for the most support.

These examinations i find to hold true on topping, rigging, felling and bucking; the hinge is the main controlling machine before tearoff, sometimes line aided. The perfection of design and placement of the hinge, walking the backcut to the precipe of failure, perhaps even flexing the hinge over with more force,when it has more fibre etc. is the main machine to tweak. For small weaknesses there, can annhilate much large advances in the rest. Of course all of that is better expressed in stronger, more flexible wood.

Well; i guess that is a pretty bold state-meant, but i guess i beleive it....... So, ready......

After that running the load to the ground, for another component of how much stress is put on the host spar catching it's top; is that it only incurs as much as 2x force as the rope brake resists. But i believe in minimizing the input force first, by using the hinge.

 

[mikecross23]

I know I need a real sling, but what are your opinions on me using false crotches today to make due?

 

[rbtree]

Good thread and discussion guys; nice work, Tim!!

Duane is a number 1 great fella!!!

Have taken AM myself. The instructors are good for sure. However, I don't take everything they say or teach as gospel.

I also prefer to have one tie-in below the sling---but just above the block, so it cannot get stressed. It could be pinched by the sling sagging a bit, but that has never happened. I have often checked and found the lanyard to be reasonably free while the load is still applied.

I too always make the cuts mere inches above the sling to minimize freefall.

Another way to reduce freefall is to use a Hobbs or GRCS. First, the ground men can really tension the line, which will automatically open up the backcut, and can darn near tip the piece over all by itself. Of course, they dont want that to happen and have to be careful whilst tensioning, as they are underneath while doing that maneuver.. Then, as the piece is in freefall and has briefly unweighted the line, a quick tug will take some of the slack out of the line. The man on the device has to be good, as instantly he has to be ready to let the piece run as it comes onto the line.

Now, all that said, I'm with Brian.. I hate catching wood!! Let em drop if at all possible, especially if the tree is dead or has any structural problems. And as most of you know, I love to drop 26 to 40 foot log lengths--- into spots not all that much bigger...LOL

 

[murphy4trees]

"Making due" is using an 044 to fell a big tree 'cause you don't have $1K to drop on a new saw. So a 24" bar with a new chain will have to do...
Using a 1/2' line, false crotch and rescue pulley to rig big wood, in place of a bull line, sling and rigging block is not "making due".. it's breaking the rules... The rules are there for a THREE reasons.. SAFETY ...SAFETY...SAFETY
you need to get a handle on the math here... The taller a chunk dropping off the top is... the farther it's center of balance travels before being caught in the rigging.... Every foot the CoB falls adds the weight of the chunk to the force on the rigging.... That adds up to a lot of force and you were most probably exceeding the SWL of your equipment... the only question is by how much????

So what is the barrier to getting the right equipment in place????
A couple hundred dollars... maybe 300 on the outside... Just add that into the price on the next job.... If you don't get the work there is no harm done... if you do.... you'll drive home with some good equipment that paid for itself in one job.... SWEET!!!

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Rb, that picture cracks me up. Have you gotten any better at knowing which side of the cut to sit on?

Daniel, is that a mullet your sporting? Sorry, couldn't resist.
What are you calling a false crotch? Isn't that what a sling is?

Mike, Did you really use a dogwood? Around here, dogwoods are multi-stemed shrubs.
It sounds like you did fine. If you grunt(dad) let it run, very little loading occurs, compared to stopping it anyway.

 

[mikecross23]

I made one of those little "need to get lists" a while back and this is what I added up for rigging equipment.

200' 5/8" stable braid $239
5/8" block $85
2 tenex eye slings 2@$45
Porta Wrap (sm) $120

for a total of $534.00.

I will eventually get what I need, but for now I will turn down or pass on anything I can't do. Again this was just an attempt to test myself with no major dangers involved. Low and slow, although the chunks I took were a little large for that 1/2" rope.

Thanks for the advice murphy4trees,
-Mike-

 

[mikecross23]

Originally posted by Mike Maas
What are you calling a false crotch? Isn't that what a sling is?

Mike, Did you really use a dogwood? Around here, dogwoods are multi-stemed shrubs.

Mike,
I expected more ridicule from everyone about this than I've gotten so far, but the false crotches I used were buckingham 2 ring friction savers. Not ideal.

The dogwood was about 8"-9" diameter at about a foot off the ground. Not huge for around here but not small either.

-Mike-

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Don't have to get everything at once. You can budget along; in fact building slowy can teach you more intensely and appreciatively of each step/device and it's individual principals and definitions.

Line is most expensive,can build to that. Especially when running the line to the ground with porty and block, where the strenght isn't needed as much.

i would go with Large Porty for more flexability, and get something to attatch it first. Then block and attatchment.

If one had serviceable 'scrap' pieces of 5/8" at ~10-25+' lengths, some shackles, and good knotting/lacing skills; cost of attatchments could be forgone for a bit too. The same would be true of 1/2", especially higher strengths (7k+), especially brought to basket formation lacings (2.5xstronger than chokes), just to lower tolerances/strengths. Roundturn/double/choke baskets give choke and strength at a cost of extra line, harder to chase slack out.

2 1/2" rings put a 1" bend in a line that the manufacturer says not to bend less than 2" loaded (1/2"). The friction savers 'bend' that rule for bodyweights i guess, but certainly not for impacting loads i wouldn't think.

Can also use block to 2/1 with friction redirect a load down.

A compression/tightening jig would be worth playing with too, especially if ya had some ol'junk to make one, kinda laying around......

Good Luck in your journey and fascination.

 

[Irradicable]

Tim Trentadue,
Great pics! I would love to see the mpeg.

What is the rateing of the bull rope that you were using?
What piece of the rigging was the weak link in the chain?
Considering the rateing of all your rigging and it's age, what is the safe limit for your chunks. Who can do the physics math?

Weight of chunk
Dynamic load due to fall height and breaking rate
Rateing of rigging reduced due to age and use
Added safety margin

Dave