Tree Damage From Crop Spraying

[Bill G]

BillG was replying to Lone Wolf, and not me, the op.

That is correct

 

[Bill G]

Having an applicators license doesn't mean much, or make somebody an expert either.

I agree to a point. An applicators license is no different then a a drivers license. In most states you can get a drivers license at 16 but that does not mean you can drive a semi. You can get a license to drive a semi in state only at 18 but must be 21 to get a CDL to go out of state. An pesticide applicator permit comes in all types of flavors. I cannot speak to other states but to get a private pesticide applicators license in Illinois it has a few requirements. You must have a pulse. You must be able to read or be able to be read to. You must pay the state about $30. You must allow "proctorU and it's Indian phone jockey to invade your computer and steal your info, (yes that really happened) and finally you must sit at your computer and answer about 40-50 multiple choice questions. Then in about 3 weeks you have a license to purchase and apply pesticides for your PERSONAL use. It does not mean you can apply chemicals for your third cousin or anyone else. If you want to work for hire that requires a more intense test and training. The pesticide license requirements came about in the 1980's when I was in high school. My father did not want to take a day off to go through all of the hoops so I gladly skipped school one day and went to the Woodhull church to take the test at the age of 16, My father never did get his "permit" I just renewed mine a couple months ago as it had lapsed

 

[pdqdl]

It's herbicide damage when you see the mature leaves roll up like that and my guess is...

In general, I would agree with you. With a bit more experience, you might also learn that leaf curling is often caused by other things as well.

Early in my career (back in 1984), I called in an expert on what I thought was herbicide damage to some redbud trees on an IRS service center that I had treated. It turns out that the observed curling leaves are a common feature for that specie of tree, especially on tender new growth in the spring.

When a broad swath of diverse plants are all exhibiting the same symptoms, then you need to look for a broad-swath kind of problem. Broadcast spraying and heat are common sources of such a problem.

 

[Bill G]

Not to derail the thread but even having a commercial pesticide applicators license and a CDL cannot fix poor choices and sheer stupidity. Those who know me know how hard it is to post this but it just occurred a few miles from me.
https://globegazette.com/news/state...cle_f203fc28-0e85-5d7d-bfaf-36353f29572a.html

 

[pdqdl]

Having an applicators license doesn't mean much, or make somebody an expert either. Anybody can get those pretty easily today. I have a SIL who works for a local company and he has an applicators license for 2 or 3 different things, including herbicides and pesticides. Personally though I wouldn't let him water my lawn if you know what I mean.
I worked with various companies hired by the DOT to do vegetation control using Round-Up (among other things) applied on State highways for some time as an inspector. They had rules to follow, and if somebody caught them doing something they should not be doing, you can believe that the reaction was immediate, no wait and see then let the Feds sort it out. Dealing with environmental issues and toxic chemicals you can't afford to wait for a Federal inspector to make an appearance an offer an opinion. It just doesn't work that way. Any incident, even a small one such as a leaking spray nozzle, was required to be reported and corrected immediately, no waiting for some bureaucracy to take action. Every drop had to be accounted for, everything that was sprayed had to be documented. Weather conditions had to be monitored and documented. There is no such thing as "spray and pray".
As to drift, if the wind was such that drift control agents couldn't stop the herbicide from leaving the farmers field and possibly contaminating some one elses property, the farmer should not have been spraying to begin with. Thats a clear violation, and its one thats easily judged as a safety hazard by any half way intelligent cop. Local cops don't have to be trained experts. They can see a public safety issue, and if they need resolution all they need to do is make a phone call. A call from the police is something that can't easily be ignored. If the farmer is allowing toxic chemicals to contaminate the property surrounding his fields, then maybe his actions are a public menace and should be stopped. If the police see it as a problem and don't do anything that would be even worse, wouldn't it?

All that text, but it sounds to me like you were never a licensed applicator, were hired to internally inspect a system for problems (exclusive of any law enforcement), and have verified that Federal inspectors might be required for enforcement.

Kinda sounds like you are proving my points. You are welcome to tell me what I misread there.

 

[pdqdl]

Not to derail the thread but even having a commercial pesticide applicators license and a CDL cannot fix poor choices and sheer stupidity. Those who know me know how hard it is to post this but it just occurred a few miles from me.
https://globegazette.com/news/state...cle_f203fc28-0e85-5d7d-bfaf-36353f29572a.html

Yes. You are right. There is no licensing defense against bad choices and stupidity. That being said, most licensing does filter out most of the idiots. Furthermore, it adds credibility to any charges against a licensed operator, as they have been certified as knowing the rules they might be charged with violating.

Nothing in that article suggests the use of a pesticide license nor a CDL. A pesticide license only regulates the operation of equipment so long as the "on switch" is engaged, and has no relevance to running agricultural equipment down the road.

Reading between the lines, that article never cited any operational errors by the guy on the spraying equipment. The fact that he was charged with leaving the scene suggests to me that his vehicle was never struck by the fire truck. He was probably bumbling down the road happily in his slow moving vehicle, and a fire truck damn near ran him down because they were exceeding their sight distance under emergency operations. Then they chose to run off the road and crash rather than run down the poor bastard on the SMV ag equipment. After that, it was discovered that he was drunk, and they lit him up with charges.

How close is my guess to the facts?

 

[TNTreeHugger]

Not to derail the thread but even having a commercial pesticide applicators license and a CDL cannot fix poor choices and sheer stupidity. Those who know me know how hard it is to post this but it just occurred a few miles from me.
https://globegazette.com/news/state...cle_f203fc28-0e85-5d7d-bfaf-36353f29572a.html

They're pretty lenient over there - only $1300 bond for hit and run and DUI?

I'm surprised there aren't a lot of accidents like that around here - always plenty of farm equipment, some over-sized, driving on the main roads.

 

[Bill G]

Yes. You are right. There is no licensing defense against bad choices and stupidity. That being said, most licensing does filter out most of the idiots.

I agree,.

Nothing in that article suggests the use of a pesticide license nor a CDL. It states

He worked for Liqui-Grow which is a large local business and was driving a Terragator. A commercial applicator license is required for the job as well as a CDL although of course neither are required to physically drive the

Reading between the lines, that article never cited any operational errors by the guy on the spraying equipment.

In Iowa or most states being over .08 is an generally an automatic "at fault" situation

 

[Bill G]

They're pretty lenient over there - only $1300 bond for hit and run and DUI?

I'm surprised there aren't a lot of accidents like that around here - always plenty of farm equipment, some over-sized, driving on the main roads.

Well where do you see he was charged with hit and run because he was not. The bond was actually $13,000 but the paper likes to mislead folks.

As for more accidents there are a lot all over the country. In nearly EVERY case it is the fault of the angry, impatient vehicle driver. Take a look at how many accidents are caused by illegal passing of equipment or passing while a machine is turning left.

You mention them driving down the main roads. Where should they drive? Would you prefer to keep two way traffic moving or constantly have roads closed so we can move equipment that takes up the entire road?

 

[pdqdl]

This makes sense - and this visible effect could cause a person to assume "heat stress" and to suggest watering the trees?

Glyphosate doesn't have leaf curl as a specific symptom for exposure. Obvously, the leaf curls as the plant dies. On the other hand, the "broadleaf weed controls", which includes Dicamba, do cause a very specific kind of leaf curl, which most experienced operators can recognize. Not all broadleaf herbicides have an equivalent tendency in that respect, and I have no experience of using exclusively Dicamba without also including other herbicides with similar properties. I don't use agricultural herbicides, and have no real idea what a farmer might have sprayed a bean field with.

What I did see looked like a field was entirely sprayed with glyphosate, which would be consistent with treatments over the top of a "roundup-ready" field crop. I did find this article:
https://extension.entm.purdue.edu/n...e/dicamba-use-in-soybean-general-information/It includes a description of the problems and how the regulations apply to it's use, so good reading for this topic.

It suggests that there are Dicamba-resistant soybean seeds available, and thus treatment with both herbicides seems like a likely event on your adjacent property.

Have you called the farmer yet and asked them to participate in solving your problems? That seems to me like the best avenue towards a solution. There's probably nothing more helpful in your case than a friendly and compliant neighbor. His friendliness will probably be much enhanced by a desire to avoid conflicts with the Dept of Agriculture.

Further reading of this article tell me that some Dicamba formulations are more inclined than others to have volatility problems. You should know that volatility isn't cause by spray drift, nor is it caused exclusively by poor spraying practices. When you spray a large field with a herbicide, for some time after the application has been made, certain weather conditions can allow the herbicide to go into the air (volatilize) and then affect areas where the farmer never sprayed. This does seem like an area for investigation, and only the Dept of Ag can require the farmer to tell what products he used and at what concentrations, and with what adjuvants added. Of course, that isn't the same thing as proving that the farmer actually did what he said. Proving a case of poor spraying technique or breaking any of the regulations under those circumstances can be quite difficult.
Proving off-target damage isn't quite so difficult. Lab tests can show that pretty quickly.

 

[pdqdl]

...
In Iowa or most states being over .08 is an generally an automatic "at fault" situation

That was kind of my point. Had he not been drinking, but in exactly the same place, doing exactly the same thing, he probably wouldn't have been charged.

Now leaving the scene? He cannot have failed to notice a fire truck careening off the road beside him (if sober), so hang him high!

 

[TNTreeHugger]

Have you called the farmer yet and asked them to participate in solving your problems? That seems to me like the best avenue towards a solution. There's probably nothing more helpful in your case than a friendly and compliant neighbor. His friendliness will probably be much enhanced by a desire to avoid conflicts with the Dept of Agriculture.

No, I haven't called him... although, that was the first thing I thought of doing.
Like I said, I don't want to cause a problem if none exists. If it's not a result of the spraying, I don't want to bother my neighbor/farmer about it.
The only conflict he'll have with the DoA is if the inspector determines he deserves it.
I'm waiting to see what the inspector has to say about it.
If it's not spray damage, there's nothing to be done and I'll just have to get out my sawsall.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

Well where do you see he was charged with hit and run because he was not. The bond was actually $13,000 but the paper likes to mislead folks.

As for more accidents there are a lot all over the country. In nearly EVERY case it is the fault of the angry, impatient vehicle driver. Take a look at how many accidents are caused by illegal passing of equipment or passing while a machine is turning left.

You mention them driving down the main roads. Where should they drive? Would you prefer to keep two way traffic moving or constantly have roads closed so we can move equipment that takes up the entire road?

Of course your right, but it's just scary and startling to come up on a slow moving piece of farm equipment when you don't expect it. Like finding a cow or a deer in your path, just not the usual thing you see on the road.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

Well where do you see he was charged with hit and run because he was not. The bond was actually $13,000 but the paper likes to mislead folks.

In the article - I said "hit and run" referring to leaving the scene of an accident.

"The arrest report says Reimers admitted to consuming whiskey prior to driving his vehicle, he was then charged with operating while intoxicated after failing two out of three field sobriety tests. Reimers was also charged with leaving the scene of an injury accident — failure to provide aid and/or information.

Reimers is free on a $1,300 bond and is scheduled to appear in court on May 10."

 

[TNTreeHugger]

I wish they'd go back to plain old tilling.
Can't find any arrowheads with no-till.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

I did find this article:
https://extension.entm.purdue.edu/n...e/dicamba-use-in-soybean-general-information/It includes a description of the problems and how the regulations apply to it's use, so good reading for this topic.

It suggests that there are Dicamba-resistant soybean seeds available, and thus treatment with both herbicides seems like a likely event on your adjacent property.

Good article.
I see several possible "failures" that could have occurred, if it is spray damage.
Time of day, temp, and wind speed.
They sprayed all day for two days straight and it was windy and there were only three days in April the wind was under 10mph.

By-the-by, I've been here 29 years and so have the crops. I've never seen this happen before.

But, all speculation until the expert shows up.

 

[arathol]

All that text, but it sounds to me like you were never a licensed applicator, were hired to internally inspect a system for problems (exclusive of any law enforcement), and have verified that Federal inspectors might be required for enforcement.

Kinda sounds like you are proving my points. You are welcome to tell me what I misread there.

No, I was an inspector (supervisor) present to ensure that the vendors did what they were contracted to do. I did the inspector training for the job. I didn't need an applicators license as I was not doing any spraying. That was done by the employees of the company who did have the appropriate certifications. Also, no Federal inspectors were ever involved at any point and I never said they were or needed to be. Its just not required unless somebody needs verification of the spraying process. There was no point in involving them for anything because we could do most anything the Federal investigator could do regarding making a determination if a problem existed and how best to resolve it.
You are starting to come across as somebody who can't have an objective view of the situation because you think your license gives you the power to do as you please and there is little anybody can do about it. You are defending this farmer as if he did nothing wrong. When it comes to stuff like this where a farmer is spraying chemicals that could cause property damage or personal injury and those chemicals are not being properly contained in their intended target area and possibly contaminating the surrounding area, the right thing to do is stop spraying until A - the wind stops, and B- any other issues regarding the chemicals involved and their effects on unintended target areas are resolved. You don't need a Federal investigation to figure that much out.....The local authorities will, after they are notified and conduct a preliminary investigation, make the proper notifications up the chain as needed for further action if they deem it necessary. Unless you think its OK to poison your neighbors then make them try to prove it later when its too late to do anything about it?

 

[pdqdl]

No, I haven't called him...

If it's not spray damage, there's nothing to be done and I'll just have to get out my sawsall.

This is what dicamba damage looks like:


Now this is on grape leaves, that are particularly sensitive to that herbicide.

Oak leaves:



Also I found this:

"There is No Antidote for Herbicide Damage​

Once a herbicide have been absorbed, options become limited. It then becomes a waiting game to see how the tree will react and whether it will survive. Depending on the herbicide and the dose applied, this waiting period can range from a few weeks to several years. If an herbicide misapplication is suspected, water the tree regularly to flush the soil and help the tree grow past the herbicide damage."​

That last quote was for the ninnies that suggested my watering suggestion wasn't valid.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

This is what dicamba damage looks like:
View attachment 988190

Now this is on grape leaves, that are particularly sensitive to that herbicide.

Oak leaves:
View attachment 988191


Also I found this:

"There is No Antidote for Herbicide Damage​

Once a herbicide have been absorbed, options become limited. It then becomes a waiting game to see how the tree will react and whether it will survive. Depending on the herbicide and the dose applied, this waiting period can range from a few weeks to several years. If an herbicide misapplication is suspected, water the tree regularly to flush the soil and help the tree grow past the herbicide damage."​

That last quote was for the ninnies that suggested my watering suggestion wasn't valid.

You calling me a ninny?


I don't have enough garden hose to reach those trees - and @ about $60/ea @ Wallyworld I'm not going to any time soon.
I saw those photos yesterday.
I'll go take a few close ups of the leaves and post them.

 

[pdqdl]

...You are starting to come across as somebody who can't have an objective view of the situation because you think your license gives you the power to do as you please and there is little anybody can do about it.

That's a personal attack based upon your biased opinion. I have never suggested a license gives you the power to do as you please. In fact, that was never any part of the conversation. I said very clearly that certain law enforcement wasn't empowered to enforce pesticide laws. And I pointed out who was empowered to enforce the laws. Your accusation is invalid and dumb.

You are defending this farmer as if he did nothing wrong.

Y'er gonna have to quote me on making any defense of any sort for the farmer in question. I have made general statements about farmers which you have not refuted.

When it comes to stuff like this where a farmer is spraying chemicals that could cause property damage or personal injury and those chemicals are not being properly contained in their intended target area and possibly contaminating the surrounding area, the right thing to do is stop spraying until A - the wind stops, and B- any other issues regarding the chemicals involved and their effects on unintended target areas are resolved. You don't need a Federal investigation to figure that much out.....The local authorities will, after they are notified and conduct a preliminary investigation, make the proper notifications up the chain as needed for further action if they deem it necessary. Unless you think its OK to poison your neighbors then make them try to prove it later when its too late to do anything about it?

I never said otherwise. What I said was that the police were not empowered to enforce the pesticide laws, and they were unqualified to take action. I even mentioned that the police are often seen to exceed their authority. I further pointed out that they might very well choose to do nothing after they visit the site, in deference to their lack of authority and inexperience. In a state like Iowa, I don't doubt that they know a bit about farmers and pesticide use, too, at least in the rural areas.

The pesticide regulations are written so as to prevent the problems we are discussing. What isn't written into pesticide regulations is what a common citizen should do in the presence of what they think is a violation.

I'd like to point out here that your comments reveal a certain ignorance regarding how pesticides might end up doing collateral damage. That spray drift is a real bugger, isn't it?
Kindly describe for me what you think the perfect weather is for spraying your bean field with Dicamba so that it doesn't kill the neighbor's trees.