Tree Damage From Crop Spraying

[TNTreeHugger]

Just came across this on the EPA site:
If you are seeing an environmental event that may lead to an immediate threat to human health or the environment, call 911, then report it to the National Response Center at: 1-800-424-8802. Learn the difference between a possible violation and an emergency.
https://echo.epa.gov/report-environmental-violations

 

[ATH]

Lots of thoughts reading through. I've gotta go shortly, so I'll start with a couple and come back at it later:
#1 realize there IS a difference between drift and volitilization. (edit to correct "isn't" to IS - i think my phone autocompleted that and I didn't catch it!)

In the OP, you said it was "windy as heck". That is conditions where we see drifting - blowing the actual droplets of herbicide off site. Volitilization happens when it is calm, and usually an inversion. The chemical evaporates and those vapors move and cause damage. This is very uncommon when there is some breeze as the air mixes well and dilutes that "poison cloud" as it were.

You had asked about Dicamba products still being on the market. Yes... Dicamba is on the market. But SOME of the more volatile products are not. Most of what they are using now is supposed to be more stable.

This is important because if you start discussing liability for damages and talk about volitilization, it would be easy to show weather conditions were not favorable to volitilization that day...

 

[TNTreeHugger]

Lots of thoughts reading through. I've gotta go shortly, so I'll start with a couple and come back at it later:
#1 realize there isn't difference between drift and volitilization.

In the OP, you said it was "windy as heck". That is conditions where we see drifting - blowing the actual droplets of herbicide off site. Volitilization happens when it is calm, and usually an inversion. The chemical evaporates and those vapors move and cause damage. This is very uncommon when there is some breeze as the air mixes well and dilutes that "poison cloud" as it were.

You had asked about Dicamba products still being on the market. Yes... Dicamba is on the market. But SOME of the more volatile products are not. Most of what they are using now is supposed to be more stable.

This is important because if you start discussing liability for damages and talk about volitilization, it would be easy to show weather conditions were not favorable to volitilization that day...

TY for making the distinction between the two. I recall it was very windy when they were spraying.

Would there be any noticeable difference between drift damage and volatile damage? Would the damage results be the same?

 

[ATH]

Same results...just a matter of delivery. Drift may be worse because the plants would have received a more direct hit. But there is plenty of documentation of significant damage caused by volitilization.

 

[ATH]

...

Question: How do you determine the height of a tree by looking at it? Pretty sure you measure the circumference chest-high, right?

Also, trying to recall the name of the arborist I called a few years ago about the holly tree, want to have his opinion on the damage. I found someone on the forestry dept. web site, but not sure if his qualifications apply to this situation. This is what it says:
Affiliations:....

A) measuring height: to determine value? Not often used in value determination. If you want to, a clinometer is the tool used. There are some clinometer apps that are decent - will get you close.
B) the qualifications you posted... probably wrong person. You want an arborist not a forester. (I'm both....so it saying one is better that the other). A forester would be the one you want to appraise loss of a timber stand. An arborist wouybw better qualified to appraise the ornamental trees and their loss. Having said that, there are certainly foresters who may have gotten involved in ornamental appraisals as well. Ask about their experiences.

But FIRST, see if the Dept of Agriculture determines it is herbicide damage. If you cannot get that documented, you'll be paying for an appraisal that may not have much benefit to you if nobody is paying for damages.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

So hard waiting for the inspector to come out.
I talked to a retired attorney friend this morning. She advised contacting the property owners directly after the inspector comes out and if he says it's drift damage. To give them the opportunity to fix the problem... if there is one.
I think my cousin up the road retired from some ag dept. I'll call him after church.

I'm really, really hoping there's no chance of lingering negative affects from this on the trees. It would be pure hell to lose them and have to replace them.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

A) measuring height: to determine value? Not often used in value determination. If you want to, a clinometer is the tool used. There are some clinometer apps that are decent - will get you close.
B) the qualifications you posted... probably wrong person. You want an arborist not a forester. (I'm both....so it saying one is better that the other). A forester would be the one you want to appraise loss of a timber stand. An arborist wouybw better qualified to appraise the ornamental trees and their loss. Having said that, there are certainly foresters who may have gotten involved in ornamental appraisals as well. Ask about their experiences.

But FIRST, see if the Dept of Agriculture determines it is herbicide damage. If you cannot get that documented, you'll be paying for an appraisal that may not have much benefit to you if nobody is paying for damages.

Yes, I was thinking of replacement value.
I had my doubts about the forester... hopefully I'll be able to get in touch with that arborist that came out here to look at the holly. It was an unusual name, but I can't think of it.
Thanks for the info.

 

[ATH]

I'm trying hard not to look at your topped maple. Your dog seems happy.

..... They were tall and leggy and the twin of the pecan fell over on the house about 20 years ago and I didn't want a repeat.
He assured me they would be okay.
I have my doubts and am afraid I made a mistake having him trim them back. At least they are leafing out. We'll see.

There is NO good reason to top a tree. Being "tall and leggy" is included int that "no".

Sure, they'll leaf back out and he may think that is "OK" because they are still alive. But topping starts a decline spiral. Sometimes that is rapid, sometimes it is a long-term decline...but it is never good.

Don't hire them again. They either don't know what they are doing....or, worse yet, they know exactly what they are doing which is setting up your trees to be less healthy and need a lot of work in the future - hoping they'll be the ones doing that.

 

[ATH]

The injury doesn't look to be at a level where as you will suffer loss. However if it were my plants I would not be happy.

I'd give it a week or two before agreeing how bad the plant injury is. But yeah... hopefully some "relatively inconsequential" leaf curl.

 

[ATH]

Looks like 2-4-D damage to me. I have one on my lawn that I got a little close to when spraying for weeds. It curld the top up, lots of spots on the leaves. Looked like **** doe that year but now it is fine, even the bad curl has straightened out.

2-4,D and Dicamba damage will look VERY similar.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

This is who my cuz worked for
https://www.fsa.usda.gov/state-offices/Tennessee/index

 

[ATH]

Actually, I have a reason for the greater interest in this stuff.

Many of my customers pay me for brush and tree control. I normally use triclopyr or picloram, and your accidental injury by Dicamba suggests that it might be a great addition to my brush control sprays. Upon reading the label, I find that it includes right-of-way treatments, so I'm good to use it!

Furthermore, most of the chemicals I use are cheaper according to how much of the stuff is made at the manufacturer. Anything used to spray millions of acres of soybeans isn't likely to be as expensive as the stuff that is packaged in one ounce bottles to cover one acre. So... I'm gonna call up the farm store and see if I can get me some cheap dicamba. Tordon 22k has been real hard for me to get recently, and the triclopyr is kinda pricey, too.

Like any tool, it is helpful if used correctly and can be quite damaging if used incorrectly. I see so much off-site damage from Dicamba, I don't use it for my brush management. We use triclopyr on State land contracts because they require that for cut stumps. Although the volitilization conversation carries over. I'm sure you're aware, but for others reading: Garlon 4 will volitilize over about 80-85 degrees. Garlon 3 is much more stable...but it doesn't penetrate bark as well.

The manager for the State land we've worked on doesn't like picloram because it can move a little more in the soil.

I often use 30% glyphosate for cut stumps on private land and for most species get very good results - especially with fall and winter treatment (as long as it isn't freezing).

 

[pdqdl]

Replacement value is generally a point of contention with the insurance company or lawyers involved. There is a special class of arborists that do plant appraisals. It is likely that a certified tree appraiser will be more qualified to determine the type & extent of your damages than the Dept of Ag. guy. If nothing else, such a person would be working for you, rather than the state.

Look up a consulting/appraisal arborist here: https://www.asca-consultants.org/page/TPAQ

 

[pdqdl]

Like any tool, it is helpful if used correctly and can be quite damaging if used incorrectly. I see so much off-site damage from Dicamba, I don't use it for my brush management. We use triclopyr on State land contracts because they require that for cut stumps. Although they volitilization conversation carries over. I'm sure you're aware, but for others reading: Garlon 4 will volitilize over about 80-85 degrees. Garlon 3 is much more stable...but it doesn't penetrate bark as well.

The manager for the State land we've worked on doesn't like picloram because it can move a little more in the soil.

I often use 30% glyphosate for cut stumps on private land and for most species get very good results - especially with fall and winter treatment (as long as it isn't freezing).

My customers are generally paying me to spray neglected areas so as to kill off the trees. Any drift that might occur would probably be considered a good thing. I don't do too much cut stump treatments, and generally make up a batch of Tordon RTU from the 22k I keep.

 

[ATH]

.... She advised contacting the property owners directly after the inspector comes out and if he says it's drift damage. To give them the opportunity to fix the problem... if there is one.
...

I'd agree with that. I know dept of AG wants it resolved. The applicator's license maybe on the line if it isn't. If dept of agriculture determines they are at fault, they should realize they are "on the hook" for damages.

Where attorneys may need to get involved is if they disagree with that or value of damages cannot be agreed upon. Might also be worth a call you your home owners insurance. They may be willing to "fight" the farmer's insurance for you???

Frankly if they are liable it will probably be an insurance claim, so don't fight with your neighbor. Take it as a "stuff happens" situation. Make it clear you don't want it to happen ever again and realize his insurance is on the hook so don't be mad at him if they resist paying. Not saying it is OK or that it doesn't suck...it does. But it is outta their hands at this point. Just drive home "never again, please".

 

[ATH]

My customers are generally paying me to spray neglected areas so as to kill off the trees. Any drift that might occur would probably be considered a good thing. I don't do too much cut stump treatments, and generally make up a batch of Tordon RTU from the 22k I keep.

OK... different circumstances than i typically deal with. We are doing woodland improvement - getting rid of invasive species or other unwanted stuff and trying to keep the good stuff.

 

[pdqdl]

Lots of thoughts reading through. I've gotta go shortly, so I'll start with a couple and come back at it later:
#1 realize there IS a difference between drift and volitilization. (edit to correct "isn't" to IS - i think my phone autocompleted that and I didn't catch it!)

In the OP, you said it was "windy as heck". That is conditions where we see drifting - blowing the actual droplets of herbicide off site. Volitilization happens when it is calm, and usually an inversion. The chemical evaporates and those vapors move and cause damage. This is very uncommon when there is some breeze as the air mixes well and dilutes that "poison cloud" as it were.

You had asked about Dicamba products still being on the market. Yes... Dicamba is on the market. But SOME of the more volatile products are not. Most of what they are using now is supposed to be more stable.

This is important because if you start discussing liability for damages and talk about volitilization, it would be easy to show weather conditions were not favorable to volitilization that day...

I concluded that it was more likely to be volatilization than drift because of the appearance of the margins of the thoroughly sprayed field. The damage to her plants appears to be ranging quite the distance away from the edges, and the edges don't appear to be severely injured, as I would expect with drift.

Given that the field was reported to be 320 acres, that's a lot of potential for volatilization damage, long after the sprayer was turned off. Also, the severity of her symptoms seems to vary more according to the species involved than the distance from the field.

Incidental note to TNT: Now I have no experience with this kind of liability, but I would expect that Mr. Farmer would be held to be less liable for any volatilization damage than for spray drift. Spray drift is very directly caused by poor spraying technique/management, whereas volatility is weather dependent, and could be argued by some to be an "act of god". Like I said, that's just my thoughts on the topic, as I have ZERO experience with paying for collateral damage.

I killed off a fine large sycamore tree on an adjacent property early in my soil sterilization career. Killed it completely, there was no doubt that I did it, either. I was spared any litigation, but I resolved that wasn't going to happen ever again.

 

[pdqdl]

OK... different circumstances than i typically deal with. We are doing woodland improvement - getting rid of invasive species or other unwanted stuff and trying to keep the good stuff.

Some of my customers hate trees. Think billboards and office buildings next to highways, and you'll get a good idea of how they feel about trees.

 

[ATH]

I concluded that it was more likely to be volatilization than drift because of the appearance of the margins of the thoroughly sprayed field. The damage to her plants appears to be ranging quite the distance away from the edges, and the edges don't appear to be severely injured, as I would expect with drift.

Given that the field was reported to be 320 acres, that's a lot of potential for volatilization damage, long after the sprayer was turned off. Also, the severity of her symptoms seems to vary more according to the species involved than the distance from the field.

I don't disagree with any of that. Very good point about consistent vs. progressive damage. However, the very windy part makes the volitilization case tough. Certainly could have happened if the wind laid down after they sprayed - even a few hours later into the evening.

 

[pdqdl]

Without the weather records, we aren't likely to ever know. There is always the consideration that the farmer probably didn't spray all 320 acres in just one day or one trip. That's a very big field!

Now that I think about it... That farmer probably hired the local Coop or a contract spraying firm to spray his fields, just on account of how much better and more specialized they are likely to be.