Southern Yankee
ArboristSite Lurker
I guess in saying I can't just take someone's word, I mean that I have no knowledge of who I am talking to, or if they know anything g about hydraulics at all...
TW6 22GPM TO 28 GPM SWAP
- Thread starter Southern Yankee
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I guess in saying I can't just take someone's word, I mean that I have no knowledge of who I am talking to, or if they know anything g about hydraulics at all...
Southern Yankee
ArboristSite Lurker
See, that is what I am wondering. It seems as though it should run a 28gpm.
It has a slightly faster cycle time than the tw5 but seems as if it can be faster yet.
Weakest link I guess? List each component and find what it is spec'd at. But what Valley suggested is do the math first to see if it is worth it.
Have you tried a modified four-way wedge? It will save you a ton of time. I said mine is stock. I meant the hydraulics is stock but the wedge is not.
Have you tried a modified four-way wedge? It will save you a ton of time. I said mine is stock. I meant the hydraulics is stock but the wedge is not.
Normally you would be picking both these off the ground to resplit. Simply leave them on top, raise the four-way, resplit the lower two pieces. Working from the log lift side, pull the closest top piece to the log lift, far piece to the beam. No lifting!
Edit: And you just saved way more time ( and a lot more effort) than a bigger pump will give you, for a mod that doesn't compromise the machine.
Here is what you need to know about your project or swap. I do not have that exact splitter you have but, 45 years ago started with tractor hydro repairs. In a perfect world you would enlarge your lines filter and a few more items, but few live in a perfect world. Assuming your are using a two stage pump then you can use anywhere from 16HP to 26HP to run a 28 cfm pump. There are plenty of adjustments you could make to compensate for what ever comes along. What issues you will have is that your lines were designed for a smaller setup so first off you will generate more heat. Yes you could run a cooler or larger tank or? Or you could make sure to go to larger lines and make a more professional installation. If you do most of your work when it cool outside then you do not need to do much modification. I started with a 10 hp Tecumseh pushing a 22 cfm pump and after destroying several motors because they had to be run at full throttle to get the job done it seemed obvious that a larger motor was needed. My second set up was a 16 hp industrial engine which still runs. Then I wanted more and faster. I found a 24hp that was on sale so I bought it. Then I got a Kubota diesel knowing that I needed to match the RPMs with the pump volume. The RPMs issue became a real problem. So at this time I use the 24 hp v twin that can run comfortably at near 3,000 RPM pushing a 28 cfm pump all day. A larger motor that is not a v twin will have trouble meeting your needs because it will struggle to run 3,000 RPMs or more. The Kubota some day may run two pumps for a fast cycle time. So any motor that has more power and can stay the RPMs will work fine. If you you plan on working it hard during the warmer months you will have to enlarge your entire system to keep it cool enough to operate. Thanks
Southern Yankee
ArboristSite Lurker
That is a nifty mod on the wedge.
I work with a 2-4man crew though. Nothing hits the ground, it just all gets slung over to the log lift, or rolled back to the beam to be fed through.
I guess that is why I was looking for anew increase in cycle time. There are hands all over looking to handle wood. If cycle time is increased by 2 seconds since it is a 5"cylinder, that would be great.
The pics are what me and one employee split in about an hour and a half. Just the trailer... around three cords. Not too bad, but could be more.
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Southern Yankee
ArboristSite Lurker
Thank you Sir. The GX630 is a v-twin that I believe runs about 3600 rpm. I do run wide open, and haven't had any problems with overheating with the 22gpm. Maybe I should run it by the local hydraulic shop and see what they recommend with swapping the pump. See if they would switch some hoses out, or leave it as is.
I do occasionally run during the summer, though I don't prefer to. NC gets HOT!! Bundles are flying out the door during the summer though.
Thanks for your time.
ChoppyChoppy
Tree Freak
Don't mind valley- he loves to talk about how great his business and stuff is instead of catching up on the 60 cord he is behind on for deliveries...doesn't realize many of us "homejobbers" do this for fun or a hobby and don't need or want all this expensive equipment. Nor do we all work in the same environment. I run a bare essential setup which does just fine with a 2 stage pump and 9hp Koehler and have huge profit margins which is my business model. To each their own.
Weesa20
My point of view has always been to have a backup for everything. If you have the smallest failure during your busy time then you will loose your momentum. My opinion advice would be to leave your 22 gpm setup alone. And build or order a complete splitter with your experience as a guide. If it takes an hour to split a cord with a employee that is pretty slow. If I want to make a delivery ASAP then by myself can get it done and I am old. Yes I am sure that you could improve that. 30 minutes a cord is a great target. If a star wedge will help then that is a benefit to have. In my area they just plain have no value because they can not handle all the knots that come up. To me having two splitters going with two people each would be much faster than one 30 gpm splitter. My experience with log lifters is that they get in the way and are slow, but that does not mean that they can not be useful. A tractor or Bobcat loads my wood into the back of my dump truck then it gets driven to the splitter location witch is the same height as the splitter. If a heavy round come up then a ramp is used. If your splitter is setup to come all the way back to the bottom of the ram each time per cycle then that will really slow you down, It need to have an adjustable link to deter at a preset length so not to bottom out at each cycle. If you are running your motors at redline for 6 to 10 hours a day there will be a major failure at some point. So whatever you can do to prevent a major shutdown when you have many customers waiting seems worthwhile. If you do not constantly improve your system then it will become more and more difficult to turn a profit. Thanks
Can't hurt to give Timber Wolf a call and ask them. Ron
ChoppyChoppy
Tree Freak
No need to be rude, I haven't been.
People don't buy $10,000 splitters and hire 4 guys for doing a hobby. Not to mention become concerned with a few sec less cycle time.
I rarely talk about business on here. I'm 55 cords backlogged now, it's Tuesday. I'll do about 20-25 cords this week.
shamusturbo
ArboristSite Member
I am fairly certain you CANNOT run a 28 GPM pump. I am almost sure you will have a 25 GPM valve which is one of the most expensive parts, especially if it is auto-cycle. I'm thinking, perhaps, Timberwolf did away with those a few years back though, which is why I am double guessing myself. There are a ton of other considerations. The ports on the cylinder most likely aren't big enough for more flow which will cause resistance and heat which is the main enemy of hydraulics (among others). I have a 2006 model year TW-5 that I hardly use anymore.
We have talked on other threads for a few years now. (I'm pretty sure I remember the exact thread where many members said to never start a firewood operation) I hope I was not one of them. It is very rewarding, extremely physical/brutal (whichever way you want to look at it) and has many different facets/niches/other avenues you can take, especially after years of doing it.
I've seen what 2 and even three able bodied guys can do with a splitter of that caliber in short time. I have the TW paint worn off mine to prove it. I built my first splitter and was on the cusp of building a processor when I found the one I own now. I learned a boat load about hydraulics from reading many many posts from muddstopper. He is an old-timer from NC that has gathered parts up to build his own processor over the last 5 or so years and chimes in from time to time on, what are usually very specific hydraulic questions. There is another very hydraulically savvy member, sam-tip , who built a killer splitter out of a retired golf course style fairway mower.
I've had said on here, among other places, that we try to eliminate the "next biggest Achilles heal" of our operation. In my opinion, a second or 2 quick cycle time is not worth it. That's increased wear and tear on the machine overall from several different systems (heat, faster motion, more tension etc), an increase in the chance for an injury (and they do happen), the motor and oil(s) life, changing out hoses that still have useful life (and a pump that isn't bad, I assume).
If you could swing it, and you are running a couple of guys for help, I would try to swing a kinetic splitter. I have a low dollar one I bought second hand in really nice shape for $800(?). It does need a hug every couple of months(lots of grease, tighten springs, new or tighten rollers, replace misc hardware, all low cost). We like it so much that our next investment will be a SuperSplit HD. They can split faster than a human can do any other task: load, unload etc.....just my 2 cents. I think the investment in a bigger pump would be a good fraction of what I got that used kinetic splitter for....
We have talked on other threads for a few years now. (I'm pretty sure I remember the exact thread where many members said to never start a firewood operation) I hope I was not one of them. It is very rewarding, extremely physical/brutal (whichever way you want to look at it) and has many different facets/niches/other avenues you can take, especially after years of doing it.
I've seen what 2 and even three able bodied guys can do with a splitter of that caliber in short time. I have the TW paint worn off mine to prove it. I built my first splitter and was on the cusp of building a processor when I found the one I own now. I learned a boat load about hydraulics from reading many many posts from muddstopper. He is an old-timer from NC that has gathered parts up to build his own processor over the last 5 or so years and chimes in from time to time on, what are usually very specific hydraulic questions. There is another very hydraulically savvy member, sam-tip , who built a killer splitter out of a retired golf course style fairway mower.
I've had said on here, among other places, that we try to eliminate the "next biggest Achilles heal" of our operation. In my opinion, a second or 2 quick cycle time is not worth it. That's increased wear and tear on the machine overall from several different systems (heat, faster motion, more tension etc), an increase in the chance for an injury (and they do happen), the motor and oil(s) life, changing out hoses that still have useful life (and a pump that isn't bad, I assume).
If you could swing it, and you are running a couple of guys for help, I would try to swing a kinetic splitter. I have a low dollar one I bought second hand in really nice shape for $800(?). It does need a hug every couple of months(lots of grease, tighten springs, new or tighten rollers, replace misc hardware, all low cost). We like it so much that our next investment will be a SuperSplit HD. They can split faster than a human can do any other task: load, unload etc.....just my 2 cents. I think the investment in a bigger pump would be a good fraction of what I got that used kinetic splitter for....
shamusturbo
ArboristSite Member
Another side note: I have modified my original,home-built slitter many, many times. It currently runs a 13 HP Hobo-Freight with the cheapest 28 GPM, 2 stage pump, and a 4" tie-rod cylinder from the tractor store. It runs full throttle and is pretty darn quick. BUT, I also have a 35 GPM valve, a 40 gallon cooler, and my lines are all bigger. (can't remember dimensions exactly) I had $864 exactly in my original build.I was selling at least that much in firewood almost every weekend during the winter in the winter with my brother and occasional help. I'm guessing we had at least twice that much in replacement and swapped out parts in the 13 years of owning it.
I'll start by saying I dont know anything about how a TW machine is assembled, or what parts they used. With that said, your 20hp engine will work just fine pulling a 28gpm 2 stage pump. The other points that have been brought up are all valid, but not entirely accurate. First off most hyd pumps are only about 85% efficient, the higher the pressure the worse the efficientcy , so your 22 gpm pump is probably only putting out about 18-19gpm of oil. The 28gpm pump will only produce about 23-24gpm. So assuming your autocycle valve is rated for 25gpm, you would still be within spec with the 28gpm pump. Even if your pump does produce the full 28gpm flow, the valve would still work, the restriction will just create heat.
Someone mentioned a dump valve for this machine. The dump valve only works on the return stroke when the rod end of the cyl is pushing more oil out of the piston end that what the pump is actually producing. This is because the rod is taking up a lot of space in the cyl barrel and pushing the rod in faster than the piston side of cyl will push the cyl out. Without knowing the dia of the rod, I cant give you any flow rates, but probably close to 50gpm returning to tank thru the dump valve. That would be your big bottleneck for oil flow, but just depends on what the dumpvalve is rated for. That doesnt mean the valve wont flow that much oil, just that it might create more heat. Also the oil going thru the dump valve is low pressure, probably not over 250psi. Low pressure would below heat.
Hose size and port size of the valve and cyl also lay a large part in oil flow. Generally a 3/4in hose will flow about 30gpm at 3000psi with efficientcy. The 3/4 inch hose will flow a lot more than 30gpm, it just increases the velocity of the oil which will create heat. Just because the hose sizes might be 3/4 dia, doesnt meant the cyl port is 3/4 inside. I have seen 5 in cyl with 3/4in ports where the inside of the port has a 3/8 dia hole where its welded to the cyl barrel. So much for the bigger port size. The only problem I see with swapping out your 22gpm pump for the 28gpm one would be the extra heat that might be produced. If it was my machine, I would make the swap and if things started getting to hot, just idle down the engine which would slow down oil flow to the original rate of the 22gpm pump.
As others have already said, there might be other things you can do to make things more efficient and speed up your splitting process. Everybody does things a little different and I would listen to what they say and maybe give a few ideals a try. If it works all is good, if it doesnt work, you havnt lost anything giving it a try.
Someone mentioned a dump valve for this machine. The dump valve only works on the return stroke when the rod end of the cyl is pushing more oil out of the piston end that what the pump is actually producing. This is because the rod is taking up a lot of space in the cyl barrel and pushing the rod in faster than the piston side of cyl will push the cyl out. Without knowing the dia of the rod, I cant give you any flow rates, but probably close to 50gpm returning to tank thru the dump valve. That would be your big bottleneck for oil flow, but just depends on what the dumpvalve is rated for. That doesnt mean the valve wont flow that much oil, just that it might create more heat. Also the oil going thru the dump valve is low pressure, probably not over 250psi. Low pressure would below heat.
Hose size and port size of the valve and cyl also lay a large part in oil flow. Generally a 3/4in hose will flow about 30gpm at 3000psi with efficientcy. The 3/4 inch hose will flow a lot more than 30gpm, it just increases the velocity of the oil which will create heat. Just because the hose sizes might be 3/4 dia, doesnt meant the cyl port is 3/4 inside. I have seen 5 in cyl with 3/4in ports where the inside of the port has a 3/8 dia hole where its welded to the cyl barrel. So much for the bigger port size. The only problem I see with swapping out your 22gpm pump for the 28gpm one would be the extra heat that might be produced. If it was my machine, I would make the swap and if things started getting to hot, just idle down the engine which would slow down oil flow to the original rate of the 22gpm pump.
As others have already said, there might be other things you can do to make things more efficient and speed up your splitting process. Everybody does things a little different and I would listen to what they say and maybe give a few ideals a try. If it works all is good, if it doesnt work, you havnt lost anything giving it a try.
Just adding my 2 cents after Mudstopper pretty much covered it all.
I've never had a heat problem with 18hp and a 28gpm pump with a 5 inch cylinder and removable 4 way wedge. 3/4 inch ports all around including the detent both ways control valve and a 40 gallon tank. I do think outside temperature makes a difference. Most all of my splitting is done when it's 50°F or below. I've run one of those cheap digital tachs in the past and above 3,000 rpm the rams is moving scary fast. Usually I'm running 2,500 rpm.
Twenty six years now on this splitter. At one time I had a second identical splitter.
I don't follow TimberWolf's logic of using 20 hp to drive a 22gpm pump. The 20hp motor cost more and uses more fuel. It makes more sense if a system is to be over powered then why not over pump it too and then cut back on the engine rpm so flow falls in the most optimum range.
These modern 2 speed hyd pumps are perfect for log splitters.
I've never had a heat problem with 18hp and a 28gpm pump with a 5 inch cylinder and removable 4 way wedge. 3/4 inch ports all around including the detent both ways control valve and a 40 gallon tank. I do think outside temperature makes a difference. Most all of my splitting is done when it's 50°F or below. I've run one of those cheap digital tachs in the past and above 3,000 rpm the rams is moving scary fast. Usually I'm running 2,500 rpm.
Twenty six years now on this splitter. At one time I had a second identical splitter.
I don't follow TimberWolf's logic of using 20 hp to drive a 22gpm pump. The 20hp motor cost more and uses more fuel. It makes more sense if a system is to be over powered then why not over pump it too and then cut back on the engine rpm so flow falls in the most optimum range.
These modern 2 speed hyd pumps are perfect for log splitters.
I run a GX630 and a 28 gpm pump on my splitter. I run a 30gpm main valve, and the 4 way and log lift are 25gpm (by design, I want heat) and there are some hart 90s in the system. I want to be able to generate heat in my system, to get it go a better operating temperature. I also have a cooler that will cool the hydraulics, and very well, as well. Day I brought it home, I tested it the following weekend, in 89 degree heat, and things purred like a kitten, oil stayed around 130 (temp controlled has 6 degree hysteresis from on to off). I have since upped the temp to 140.
Fortunately there isn't a simple solution to speed up your splitter. Bigger rod diameter cylinder, will require a dump valve, or you'll make heat. Higher gpm pump, will work, but will still create heat. Installing a cooler, you should already have the battery, but need to make sure you have the recharge capabilities on your engine (my gx630 has up to 18A of recharge) and will have to rework the lines. Might be better to sell the TW5 and get a TW6, or another brand, to get the speed you want. Speed cost money, in hydraulics. My splitter calculates out to 6.28 seconds for a full stroke...........it's probably closer to 7.5-8 seconds, due to inefficiencies, plumbing, and oil viscosity. It's still plenty fast to keep 4 guys busy.
Fortunately there isn't a simple solution to speed up your splitter. Bigger rod diameter cylinder, will require a dump valve, or you'll make heat. Higher gpm pump, will work, but will still create heat. Installing a cooler, you should already have the battery, but need to make sure you have the recharge capabilities on your engine (my gx630 has up to 18A of recharge) and will have to rework the lines. Might be better to sell the TW5 and get a TW6, or another brand, to get the speed you want. Speed cost money, in hydraulics. My splitter calculates out to 6.28 seconds for a full stroke...........it's probably closer to 7.5-8 seconds, due to inefficiencies, plumbing, and oil viscosity. It's still plenty fast to keep 4 guys busy.
I run a 28gpm pump behind a 25hp kholer engine. I have a 5in cyl with a 6way wedge. I just have a regular single lever control valve with detent,rated for 25gpm. My cyl ports are 3/4 but I had to drill the center out because the hole inside the port was only 3/8. My oil tank is also very small, about 10gal. I have been running this splitter for 4 or 5 years now with no problems. I hardly ever run my engine full throttle, The difference in speed isnt worth listening to the roar of the engine and even at half throttle, it will work a crew to death keeping it fed.
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