Underbidding $&^%%$!!!

[carveit]

Perfect Example

Fella I met while going to purchase a very long ladder had just sold his house, he realized why I wanted the ladder when he was told I ran a Tree CAre co.So we walk around and look and talk about his trees. He kindly gestured that he would pass my card along to the new owner. Weeks pass and low and behold last week I receive an email (the new owner), asking for me to come and give a quote. Naturally a week passes before I have time to address the request. Last night I replied, I informed her I could attend potentially saturday or sunday or whatever would be good for her(of course). She replied this morning with the usual"I hired someone else already", in other words I took too long to reply. But in her email she Thanked me and I replied with...as I recall the Trees from my initial inspection, the trunks on these trees had been backfilled with foreign soils and to be sure the contractor was going to address this issue asap. I went on to inform her that anyone could manage the removal of dead branches and overhanging limbs to the roof. But a true caregiver would also seek to reverse the effects and bring the trees back to stress free living(in a nut shell). So she emails me back and says"I have a dillema, I asked each contractor about the soils and they all said it was not an issue. The trees were dying!! I explained that was not the case. She requested I attend tomorrow and give her an idea of what is involved and further told me the reason she bought the property wa because of the shade Trees and couldn't bear the thought of losing them, she said I seem to be far more knowledgable then all the other contractors who quoted. This scenario has inflated my ego and I am feeling very justified to make this post, people care more about the well being and general health of their trees then having a #### show pull in and pretend to be earning big dollars for what? getting some wood down to chip? So the moral is here I think, that I lost the job because I delayed, I delayed purposely to let everyone else go first and shoot their line of #### to the client and then just practiced good Arboriculture and voila! I beat the competition with TRUTH. I could show up on my skateboard if I wanted and tie the brush and drag it away, she will still pay more for my expertise and trustworthy consultation anyday then to accept "the trees are dying and will have to come down" (eventually). Bogus... I love Trees and everyone of them has something wrong somewhere, just a treasure hunt, lol. Godspeed men.

 

[jefflovstrom]

We all want to get the job.
I already read in other threads that you guys know I am an Op's guy and don't think I bid. Wrong! I bid alot! If I did not, our Regional Manager would be buried and behind.
I've been doing this for over thirty years, so a manager bidding on a job that involves my crew will be talking to me.
As to the topic, You all bid against your competitor's. I like to make it apples to apples.
I went on a pre-job walk-thru and there were seven rep's on the walk-thru. I asked how many were cert arb's and three raised their hand and four did not.
See ya later, they invite a cert against a non-cert, maybe what-ever to bid against us? Nope.
Jeff :msp_wink:

 

[gorman]

Hey man, there's an outfit in my neck of the state that gets a lot of work and has some real nice trucks who has workers actually smoking crack on the job. In the cab of the truck. So the way I look at it, if this bunch of yahoos can make it, why can't I? Next time you feel slighted, just know things will get better. Even if you're puffing crack on the job.

 

[jefflovstrom]

Hey man, there's an outfit in my neck of the state that gets a lot of work and has some real nice trucks who has workers actually smoking crack on the job. In the cab of the truck. So the way I look at it, if this bunch of yahoos can make it, why can't I? Next time you feel slighted, just know things will get better. Even if you're puffing crack on the job.

Don't smoke Crack!
CBS care's!
Jeff

 

[tree md]

Nope, no crack allowed on my jobs... :hmm3grin2orange:

I feel that half the guys that i bid against are smoking it tho.

 

[zopi]

700 for three trees and rigging? ouch.

OTOH, this thread makes me feel better, being new to the business end of this wonderful nutball business, I have been worried that I was underbidding alot of jobs...but apparently I am in the ballpark...

:hmm3grin2orange:..I did a stop and rob estimate earlier, dying fir about thirty feet up..make it smile drop it and chip it for 200 is what I quoted them..might take an hour by myself..just to get out of the house on sunday morning...a little less than two hundred an hour ain't bad...

I am working on one now, that I underbid myself on pretty bad..oops, that was just inexperience at bidding..but..I pruned out an old willow oak i the front of this place, and made it look so much better, It has led to several thousand dollars in work for me. it is out there, and it is worth hustling a bit..but I won't play that price matching thing, I know what it costs me to operate, and I know there is another job right around the corner..and honestly, I have some sales skill...I don't need to cut my throat and that of the other professionals around me...

 

[ropensaddle]

Nope, no crack allowed on my jobs... :hmm3grin2orange:

I feel that half the guys that i bid against are smoking it tho.

Ya don't have to lie to kick it with us tree md We know you have crack on da job y just the other day you said a mini skirt was chasing you through the hemlocks:hmm3grin2orange: Crack kills bro:monkey:

 

[tree md]

If I can do the job in a half day it would be a good job... Don't see that happening unless I break out a crack pipe tho... Maybe hire a couple crack heads to do it for me... :msp_w00t:

 

[mckeetree]

These damn illegal aliens give us fits around here. They work for close to nothing. Of course, they are not that much cheaper then some cat posting earlier that thought $700 gross a day was good.

 

[ropensaddle]

These damn illegal aliens give us fits around here. They work for close to nothing. Of course, they are not that much cheaper then some cat posting earlier that thought $700 gross a day was good.

I hear ya, 700 net is fair in this market here but not good. I remember when it was easy to get 1k for a large tree not huge but large. Its hard to get 600 for it now.
Also remember, here a large is huge in your area 105 foot or so I miss climbing them bushes in north Texas lol but don't miss the heat.

 

[carveit]

Example

Customer calls and says he was responding to the spring campaign discounts we were offering throughout spring bookings only. I was happy to hear that others thought our discount was an opportunity too(yeah right). Anyways I estimated at 2800. for all the work he wanted done which was a good day and half, for a well greased crew. Anyways with the discount the estimate was reduced to 2100.(give or take a few hunderd). So he calls coincidentally as we were on our way to the site(I swear they had a homing device attached to my stuff somewhere). He is on the phone saying that the estimate was rather high???? and he was going to shop around for some other quotes. Well wtf Batman? I said to him that was fine and I was just on my way over with the men good thing he called me, I instructed the crew to go someplace else that day. So I said to him that I would come over and rewrite the estimate for him and offered him a credit for the white pine LOGS which would be set at no more than 300- considering the value in each log (secretly calculating how many carves we could get out of this lumber). He agreed to see me to renegotiate and rewrite. When I arrived he was eager to discuss more work that needed to be done and we shook on 2000cash. I guess what I am trying to say is, when a client wishes to renegotiate it is in your best interest to do so, just my thoughts. The clincher was the wood and now I just carve it:msp_thumbsup:

 

[sgreanbeans]

so if this guy did pass all the regs and such what would your opinion of him be then?

He beats women - still a dirt bag!

If a guy chooses to leave the dark side of the force, I would have no problem showing him the ways of the Jedi


I want a Yoda smiley

 

[TreeClimber57]

hey man I hear ya, but 700 gross is a good day, is actually more than alot of people make.

Problem is anybody running a legitimate tree business in this area likely has a good chunk of that as overhead for the day.

Somebody running on their own, with next to zero over head, that is ok I guess.

Assuming that one is legitimate and has equipment, take all their equipment and figure how long it will last. Divide the cost by the expected life - figure that as what you need to make each year to simply replace what you have. (you may have to factor in inflation here as well)

Then factor in maintenance, gasoline and oil costs for vehicles, tools, etc.

Then (at least in Canada) - vehicle licensing, vehicle cvor (commercial vehicle operators permit)

Then business license fee

Then insurance (liability and vehicle), telephone, cell phone, web site, advertising.

Then factor in any legal items - income tax, workers compensation, pension plans (we have federal mandatory ones here).

Then any professional fees - lawyers, accountants

Then factor in any licensing or membership fees - ISA, TCIA, software licensing or support renewals.

Then factor in things like emission testing (we need to do on each commercial vehicle annually), safety inspection ( we need to do on each vehicle and trailer annually), boom inspection (annually).

Now you need to pay anybody working with you; and according to the law one cannot do tree work by themselves here (they need at least one extra person). (and you need to pay taxes, workers compensation, etc on their wages)

Now you can begin to figure out what you make yourself (less of course your own personal income tax, etc).

So.. how much of that $700.00 is actually real income to put food on your table?

That is the difference between somebody trying to run a business vs. somebody out with chainsaw and pickup truck, flying under the legal radar and taking what they can get for as inexpensively as they can take it.

Likely have forgotten some items as well.

So you see; for $700 a day gross; if you are running a business and following all the rules then I can suspect you are actually taking home far less than half of htat money after factoring in all expenses. Just my guess of course..

 

[TreeClimber57]

No one wins the race to the bottom. We need to be businessmen first,being arborists comes in second and being a chainsaw saw operator last. The quicker this happens then the industry as a whole will change for the better instead of all this underbidding crap that is going on which is dragging the whole industry down to the poverty level.

Agreed!!

Problem is you get a whole pile of folks who grab a chainsaw and pickup truck and are in business.

Some days I wish a couple of them would start dropping some big trees on homes.. nothing that hurts anybody. But

Not sure about across the U.S., but here in Canada if the contractor (in this case tree worker) is not insured the home owner is responsible for any damage to their property or that of any adjoining neighbour. In fact if there is a personal injury to any person (spectator or worker) and the contractor does not have workers compensation the homeowner is responsible (or their insurance company is). If the contractor does not carry liability or workers compensation the law considers the homeowner as their employer (they are paying them). Hence they are responsible. This has been in court, and there is a clear precedent here, was first pointed out to me by my lawyer who had some examples of cases in past.

I only wish home owners were more aware.. of if the laws changed regulating all contractors more cleaning out the bottom feeders. It is not just tree work that has the low end lowballers. From what I hear home renovations is just as bad.

 

[TreeClimber57]

Thats the problem with people bidding cheap. They bid a job for 700 and think man thats good money for a day or two of work when it takes other people a week or two to make that. When you have equipment and over head you have to know what it takes to keep you rolling. When I deal with situations like this I sell quality work and tell the home owners it takes more than a chainsaw and a pickup. I have no problem walking away from a job you cant get all of them.

Agreed. And if the homeowner is that cheap; then maybe you don't want them all!

 

[Walt41]

I think your business has lost the respect it once had, with every "guy with a truck and saw" the publics perceived value of tree work has gone down, kinda like remodeling, concrete work, landscaping and a lot of other services. I think the answer lies somewhere between a few hacks landing trees on roofs and extra time spent selling the customer on the value of hiring a professional with insurance.

 

[Rftreeman]

Agreed!!

Problem is you get a whole pile of folks who grab a chainsaw and pickup truck and are in business.

Some days I wish a couple of them would start dropping some big trees on homes.. nothing that hurts anybody. But

Not sure about across the U.S., but here in Canada if the contractor (in this case tree worker) is not insured the home owner is responsible for any damage to their property or that of any adjoining neighbour. In fact if there is a personal injury to any person (spectator or worker) and the contractor does not have workers compensation the homeowner is responsible (or their insurance company is). If the contractor does not carry liability or workers compensation the law considers the homeowner as their employer (they are paying them). Hence they are responsible. This has been in court, and there is a clear precedent here, was first pointed out to me by my lawyer who had some examples of cases in past.

I only wish home owners were more aware.. of if the laws changed regulating all contractors more cleaning out the bottom feeders. It is not just tree work that has the low end lowballers. From what I hear home renovations is just as bad.

most are aware but would rather chance it and get something done for peanuts than pay a higher price, it's not just the people biding low, it's also the home owner hiring them that keeps them going and drives the market down....

 

[mckeetree]

Problem is anybody running a legitimate tree business in this area likely has a good chunk of that as overhead for the day.

Somebody running on their own, with next to zero over head, that is ok I guess.

Assuming that one is legitimate and has equipment, take all their equipment and figure how long it will last. Divide the cost by the expected life - figure that as what you need to make each year to simply replace what you have. (you may have to factor in inflation here as well)

Then factor in maintenance, gasoline and oil costs for vehicles, tools, etc.

Then (at least in Canada) - vehicle licensing, vehicle cvor (commercial vehicle operators permit)

Then business license fee

Then insurance (liability and vehicle), telephone, cell phone, web site, advertising.

Then factor in any legal items - income tax, workers compensation, pension plans (we have federal mandatory ones here).

Then any professional fees - lawyers, accountants

Then factor in any licensing or membership fees - ISA, TCIA, software licensing or support renewals.

Then factor in things like emission testing (we need to do on each commercial vehicle annually), safety inspection ( we need to do on each vehicle and trailer annually), boom inspection (annually).

Now you need to pay anybody working with you; and according to the law one cannot do tree work by themselves here (they need at least one extra person). (and you need to pay taxes, workers compensation, etc on their wages)

Now you can begin to figure out what you make yourself (less of course your own personal income tax, etc).

So.. how much of that $700.00 is actually real income to put food on your table?

That is the difference between somebody trying to run a business vs. somebody out with chainsaw and pickup truck, flying under the legal radar and taking what they can get for as inexpensively as they can take it.

Likely have forgotten some items as well.

So you see; for $700 a day gross; if you are running a business and following all the rules then I can suspect you are actually taking home far less than half of htat money after factoring in all expenses. Just my guess of course..

Good post. The day I start sending a crew out for $700 a day gross and thinking that is good is the day I need ran out of the business.

 

[TreeAce]

I hate it when I confuse GROSS with NET. 700 a day before expenses freakn blows. Depending on how many guys you are paying, etc, etc

 

[mckeetree]

700 a day before expenses freakn blows.

Yep. Blows bad.