Tree Sling'r
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Many shops have no clue about sharpening.
Unsharp chains
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I switched all my chain over 50cc to 3/8 and I'm using the chunky Stihl file thingy that does both the raker and cutter at once, works real well so far and it is very quick and easy. Much quicker than using a filing guide for the cutter and then another with a flat file for the raker. Had horrible results with a grinder years ago and never tried again, though that may be more to do with ignorance than a bad machine, I've never managed to blue steel with a file, yet...
Gday
I asked about the use of a coolant or air on here several months ago and didn't get a great response
If you were to use a coolant what would you use
I haven't had the grinder all that long but got one as I thought it would be good to clean up stone damage
It happen to us all no matter how flash I think I am, and as careful as I am to try maintain even shape of teeth I tend to be heavy handed one side to the other so the grinder helps there
I wish I could set it up to grind outside in on both sides of the chain I don't like the burr it leaves and I am particularly light handed when grinding
I find the after the grind the file standard size for 3/8 chain doesn't fit as well onto the gullet and several swipes are needed to clean that up
I feel a slightly thicker stone may be needed
what do you thing and were would I get one from
Ive heard good ones are expensive but Id like to get something of good quality as it would see me out what do you recommend
currently for hard wood cross cutting for fire wood I use a 25 degree angle and 55 gullet Its holding a good edge and Ive probably cut 6 to 7 ton of hard wood on the current sharpen
Dad was a sawyer which doesn't make me an expert but I do ok with my chains as long as I keep em outta the dirt n stones yeah
I realy like the look of a square ground or filed chain and wish I could do it
I believe their is a product called Kool-Grind, and If I had to guess it's a soap like product, which is fine and should work well. However I'm talking about water based coolant used in high speed mills and so on. At this time I do not know of any such grinder on the market. IMHO the market for grinders is small, which is likely why they're primitive in design, to say the least.
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I find Kool Grind to be next to worthless. You would think that a finer stone would be easier to use than a coarser one, but I've found the opposite to be true. The coarser stones on my Stihl grinder are far cooler to run than the pink Oregon wheels on my Oregon grinder. I honestly don't know why people have trouble grinding chain. You figure out pretty quick how big of a bite you can take and a rocked chain may take 4 or 5 laps around to get it done up right. Hell, my 13 y.o. doesn't blue a tooth with a grinder.
Is hand filing better? Sure it is if you know what you are doing. However, I'm not doing 20 homeowner chains a day at my shop by file. They are totally happy with a decently machine sharpened chain with the rakers trimmed properly.
Is hand filing better? Sure it is if you know what you are doing. However, I'm not doing 20 homeowner chains a day at my shop by file. They are totally happy with a decently machine sharpened chain with the rakers trimmed properly.
Rockjock
Addicted to ArboristSite
Do you mean the 2 in 1 easy file? View attachment 313162
I have all 3 sizes they were part of the swag I got from stihl. The files along with a stump vice and a stihl gas /oil can View attachment 313163
it works really well for a newbie like me!
I understand, part of your business is sharping chain, and I wouldn't expect anyone to sharpen that many chains by hand. You're right, done correctly a ground chain is more than good enough for the average guy.
However for someone like myself, I found it quite hard/impossible to achieve the same results with a grinder. Even if you take super light passes, you end up wasting quite a bit of tooth, and obviously the shape of the stone is always changing, plus you're always fighting the heat issue. I've never used Kool Grind myself, some seem to like the stuff others not so much.
Now for me to be an ass. Saw chains don't have rakers, they have depth gauges.:msp_wink:
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Yes, I agree about the depth gauges but over look what the customer calls them as a lot of people don't even understand what a dull chain looks like until you explain it.
Homelite410
Hack with a CNC Mill
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And I don't like doing depth gauges with my 511ax. It simply has too much flex in the head stop and I haven't got a dial indicator mounted on the head.
Swamp Yankee
Addicted to ArboristSite
To the OP
Since no one asked, I will.
Did they grind both sets of cutters including rakers on the chain(s)? Without seeing the chains, if you can post a pic, it almost sounds like they set up to do one set of cutters ground both chains, and then forgot to rotate the table and do the second set.
Other thought, when they rotated the table they may have missed the mirror image top plate angle, ie. one ground at 30 and the other at 20 or something like that.
I would take them back to the shop, explain what's happening, and politely ask them to take a look. Chains ain't cheap anymore and it makes sense to maximize the life.
Take Care
Since no one asked, I will.
Did they grind both sets of cutters including rakers on the chain(s)? Without seeing the chains, if you can post a pic, it almost sounds like they set up to do one set of cutters ground both chains, and then forgot to rotate the table and do the second set.
Other thought, when they rotated the table they may have missed the mirror image top plate angle, ie. one ground at 30 and the other at 20 or something like that.
I would take them back to the shop, explain what's happening, and politely ask them to take a look. Chains ain't cheap anymore and it makes sense to maximize the life.
Take Care
RVALUE
Addicted to ArboristSite
Philip Wheelock
Finis Origine Pendet
I touch up the cutters every refueling and the depth gauges every other one with these:
View attachment 313177
The guide/round file tool works well. No need to take chains to the shop.
IMO, grinders are only for rocked chains.
Over the years I've tried just about every type of file guide out there. What works best for me, on all counts, is Granberg "File-N-Joint". That guide, and files matched to cutter size, will do any "round"-filed chain. And depth gauges to precise depth.
It's so precise and repeatable, for routine touch-ups in the woods, one stroke per cutter is all it takes.
Some folks just don't seem to want to spend the few minutes attention-span it takes to figure out how to use it best, and quickly give up. For me, it makes it easy to keep all sorts of chain razor-sharp, and takes off so little metal that chains last a long time. Makes it hard to beat-up on bars and engines, too.
I've used the same guide for ~35 yrs, too, and slowly used up a few files. Really slowly.
Over the years I've tried just about every type of file guide out there. What works best for me, on all counts, is Granberg "File-N-Joint". That guide, and files matched to cutter size, will do any "round"-filed chain. And depth gauges to precise depth.
It's so precise and repeatable, for routine touch-ups in the woods, one stroke per cutter is all it takes.
Some folks just don't seem to want to spend the few minutes attention-span it takes to figure out how to use it best, and quickly give up. For me, it makes it easy to keep all sorts of chain razor-sharp, and takes off so little metal that chains last a long time. Makes it hard to beat-up on bars and engines, too.
I've used the same guide for ~35 yrs, too, and slowly used up a few files. Really slowly.
CBN wheels remove a lot of the concerns for teeth damage while grinding.
Set up and knowledge as to what you are actually attempting to accomplish with the grinder....well...thats priceless...
Reading chips is also a good way to gain experience....what is the chain telling you about its condition...before and after "sharpening"
Set up and knowledge as to what you are actually attempting to accomplish with the grinder....well...thats priceless...
Reading chips is also a good way to gain experience....what is the chain telling you about its condition...before and after "sharpening"
When filing with a simple holder, the changing sound the file makes will tell how sharp the chain is getting... the less material it takes off, the sharper the chain has become. The pitch is getting higher.
hoeyrd2110
ArboristSite Guru
my residential chains are all ground. pros all get filled from me and they love it. you would be amazed at how many pros actually cant file either atleast around here. good skill to have
If the OP got a bad sharpening job by the shop, it was because who ever did it did not know what they were doing, not becasue of the sharpening method used.
You assume that automatically, without seeing the cutters?
(Should I assume that if a chain is hand-filed each cutter is at a different angle, and a different length, or that maybe some people know what they are doing?)
Kool Grind is a wax that fills in the spaces between the abrasive grit particles in the grinding wheel to prevent them from filling up with debris. The idea is that this debris rubs against the cutter, heating it up. Does not actually act as a coolant. Was not impressed with it.
One of those subtle but important things to learn about grinding is the need to dress conventional stones - not just to maintain the shape, but to expose fresh abrasive. Otherwise, you are trying to cut with dull edges. Kind of like trying to cut logs with a dull chain by pressing harder - you can make some progress, but things heat up and it goes slower. Frequent dressing 'uses up' the grinding wheel faster, but cuts faster and cooler; kind of like frequent filing of your chain edges 'uses up' your cutters faster.
Depends on how good is 'good enough', and finding something that works for you.
I like the Granberg for quiet sharpening. I also get very good edges grinding that more than meet my cutting needs.
Millions of chains are competently ground on a regular basis - we only here about the bad ones here.
Philbert
You assume that automatically, without seeing the cutters?
(Should I assume that if a chain is hand-filed each cutter is at a different angle, and a different length, or that maybe some people know what they are doing?)
Kool Grind is a wax that fills in the spaces between the abrasive grit particles in the grinding wheel to prevent them from filling up with debris. The idea is that this debris rubs against the cutter, heating it up. Does not actually act as a coolant. Was not impressed with it.
One of those subtle but important things to learn about grinding is the need to dress conventional stones - not just to maintain the shape, but to expose fresh abrasive. Otherwise, you are trying to cut with dull edges. Kind of like trying to cut logs with a dull chain by pressing harder - you can make some progress, but things heat up and it goes slower. Frequent dressing 'uses up' the grinding wheel faster, but cuts faster and cooler; kind of like frequent filing of your chain edges 'uses up' your cutters faster.
Depends on how good is 'good enough', and finding something that works for you.
I like the Granberg for quiet sharpening. I also get very good edges grinding that more than meet my cutting needs.
Millions of chains are competently ground on a regular basis - we only here about the bad ones here.
Philbert
tolman_paul
ArboristSite Guru
Dittos, you can mess up a chain with a grinder or with a file and you can get a nice sharp chain with either method. It all comes down to the opperator.
I picked up an oregon grinder a couple years back bring my hand filed chains back to a baseline. Sure enough I messed up the first chain I tried because I was taking way too big of a cut. Once I figured that out and set the grinder so that it would take a very light cut then I was in business. The first pass likely won't even spark on every tooth and I plan on taking 2 or 3 passes to get the chain sharp gradually increasing the cut on each pass.
Just as a properly used chainsaw can speed your production over a handsaw, a properly used grinder will speed your chain sharpening over a file.
I picked up an oregon grinder a couple years back bring my hand filed chains back to a baseline. Sure enough I messed up the first chain I tried because I was taking way too big of a cut. Once I figured that out and set the grinder so that it would take a very light cut then I was in business. The first pass likely won't even spark on every tooth and I plan on taking 2 or 3 passes to get the chain sharp gradually increasing the cut on each pass.
Just as a properly used chainsaw can speed your production over a handsaw, a properly used grinder will speed your chain sharpening over a file.
The design of the ABN Cyclone Grinding Wheels available from Bailey's for $269 is to keep the chain from overheating. They work.
DexterDay
Addicted to ArboristSite
That looks identical to the Timber Tuff? Is the stone different? Buddy has the Northern Tool model and its identical to the Timber Tuff.
I have an Oregon and a Timber Tuff. Both work. But my Oregon is a cheaper one (just under $200) and has a plastic frame. Not a big fan.. Timber tuff came with 3 different grinding wheels and is cast, with adjustable head angle (Oregon isn't adjustable).
Had a Timberline system. It worked, but was a PITA and cost about as much as the Timber Tuff Grinder. For the money, the grinder is the way to go...
Edit: Or is that a Timber Tuff w/ the Cyclone Wheel? Doh!!
