upgrading log splitter

[xander9727]

He most probably will when the pump is fully loaded.......but it won't hurt to find out......he already owns the engine.

Remember it takes larger fittings, valves and lines to flow more GPM as well as a larger pump.

 

[Patrick62]

Pix of work in progress

If this works, these are pix of what it sorta is gonna look like.

After I get a few more things stuck on there, and maybe some primer, I will take more photos.

To answer the questions above:
yes it is a 2 stage pump. Isn't that standard for splitters?
My theory is that the 6.5hp engine would power out running a 4" cylinder with a 16gpm 2 stage pump. But, the 5" is 20% larger which is going to give me 20% more push, or in reality is going to need 20% less power.

Besides I already have the cylinder... I am gonna use it.
With the 13.5 pump even with the engine maxed out it was slow.
As far as engine speed, I prefer to drop it to less than 3600. More like 2400-2800. Quieter, engine lives longer, uses less fuel. Still puts out a decent amount of torque.
)
-Pat (this is gonna be fun

 

[kennertree]

What are you gonna call it? The cadillac of log splitters? That thing looks neat.

 

[xander9727]

Patrick,
Re-check your math. The area of a circle is Pi X (radius x radius).
The radius squared of a 4" cylinder is 4, the radius squared of a 5" cylinder is 6.25
A 5" cylinder will actually have 64% more power than a 4" cylinder.

This being said......you'll always find a way to max it out......try a crotched piece of elm.

Hope this helps.

 

[CaseyForrest]

I thought area of a circle was Diameter x 3.14. 4" diameter has surface area of 12.56".

5" is 15.7"

Running 2750 psi will give you 34,540# and 43,175# accordingly. You then take that number and multiply it by the surface area of your wedge point, and thats where you get you final splitting tonage.

 

[Patrick62]

Is my calc wrong?

I have run the numbers before. 5" works out to 19.63 sq. in. and the 4" works out to 12.56 sq. in. You are right! The 5" is just over 50% more powerful. My error.

What am I gonna call it? How about Splitter Critter?
There are only two things I need to find out by trial.
Will my 6.5 really pull a 16GPM 2 stage?
Will my somewhat flimsy looking beam fold up.

Once I get a few more things worked out (maybe some primer), I will post another photo!

-Pat

 

[tawilson]

A weak spot on mine was how the push block was attached to the beam. It has three plates bolted together. I've had to replace the bolts with a better grade and they still loosen. It looks like you have the same except for welded. Probably better that way and I will do mine also sometime.

 

[CaseyForrest]

I used 2" angle 3/8 thick to tie my push block onto the beam. Im pretty sure the minimum is 1/2 horse per 1 gpm.

 

[Jwoods]

Hey Patrick,

Looks like WCC meets Arboristsite, nice job on the fabrication.

Your engine will definitely pull the 16gpm pump. What splitting force you end up with is another story. What are the flow ratings are for both stages of the pump? For this pump, is there an external hi-lo valve that is adjustable?

Speed Calculations:

16 GPM into a 5" cylinder will yield an extension speed of .3 seconds per inch. If it were a 24 inch stroke, for example; extension time would be 7.6 seconds.

13.5 GPM into a 4" cylinder would have an extension speed of .24 seconds per inch. A 24 inch stroke cylinder would fully extend in 5.8 seconds, which is faster than the 5" at 16 GPM.

Joe

 

[Patrick62]

I been working on it

It is turning blue (with paint). Hydraulics are hooked up but not filled and tested. Still have to build a wedge. Once everything else is done, and it moves the ram, and DRIVES! Then I roll it out to the wood pile and commence bending the beam.... After I bend the beam, I can drive it back into the shop and replace it with something MUCH stronger.

Your calculations are interesting. I have another splitter using a 11gpm 2 stage with a 4" cylinder. It is fast enough, but a 13.5 would be better.
Now run the calculations based on a 13.5 with the 5" cylinder. Then you would understand why I wanted to upgrade the speed a bit. It was slow, but would split anything! With the 5" cyl it rarely dropped into the creepy mode.
Not sure what the kick down pressure is set at (500-600 psi?), yes there is a adjustment on the thing.

I will haul a camera out and get some current photo's of the creation.

-Pat

 

[mrk585]

Just need to find an s-10 with a pto trany take the bed odd hook some lights up make fenders then you have a road leagle splitter right on

 

[tawilson]

Didn't Jesse James make something like that?

 

[Patrick62]

what I have learned so far (with pix)

A old air compressor tank makes a pretty fair oil tank.

The steering worked out great!

The engine mounted, you can see the hydraulic motor in there as well.
Custom drive shaft needed a little tweaking...

The bicycle seat is so out of character it just had to be mounted!

I should have grabbed the camera when I went for a "test drive" today.
Other than a pretty decent leak, it worked okay. 6.5 hp is not enough. On level ground it has enough to move itself. If I switch from forward to reverse to fast it kills it. Minor inclines are enough to cause the engine to struggle. The ram does look like it moves a little faster, but I have yet to create a wedge to test it out on.

Top speed is walking pace. If I were to do it over again, I might be tempted to get the SLOWEST high torque motor I could find. Might make it easier to position. The depression part of today was that I discovered that BOTH the 1/2" motor ports on the valve have cracks! It seems to leak a little even with it in neutral. Put it in foreward and starts dripping pretty well. Put it in reverse and opposite hose starts leaking like mad.
So I will email Northern just for the heck of it, but I bet they won't help.
I really did not tighten the fitting that tight. With a little special tape on the threads and in it went. Maybe 2/3 of the way in is all I tightened it.
Bogus casting? If so, so much for "Made in USA".

I will want a 8hp engine on there eventually. I really can't justify a larger than the 16 gpm pump, as the motor is rated at 14gpm. A little more tinkering and I will have a interesting machine.
-Pat

 

[stihlatit]

Pi = 3.1416

Volume = Pi times radius squared times Length of cylinder. Xander is correct.

Pi times diameter = circumference and if multiplied by length would calculate the external surface of the cylinder. Sorry Casey.

Arnie

 

[xander9727]

If you had larger valves, hoses and fittings the cylinder would move faster.....especially when it is not under load (moving away from wedge).

 

[tawilson]

Not sure where you oil drains, but if out the bottom, did you cut a hole to access your drain plug? Another ?, if someone had a riding mower engine available to use, would it be ok to mount the hydraulic pump on it, in a verticle position underneath? I've practically given away mowers before with good running engines, just the mower itself was worn out and not worth fixing. I'll bet the JD dealer down the road has a few kicking around, they'd be mostly in the 12-20 hp range, and have electric start. Good job on the splitter, btw.

 

[Patrick62]

I built one that way.

6hp vertical from a defunct pressure washer.
Hooked up to a 11gpm pump with a very custom bracket.

It is just easier to use a horizontal engine, but you use what you have.

Speaking of hoses. I figured it this way, the pump comes with a 1/2" outlet so staying with a 1/2 hose makes sense? The ports on the valve are also 1/2" so I ran same stuff to cylinder. Cylinder used 3/4 so there are bushings there.

3/4 hose run to second valve as both have 3/4 ports. 1" hose for return to tank. The thing that buggs me about the leaky cracked valve is that it dribbles even when in neutral. Not real sure why.... the oil flow should be straight thru to the filter and back to tank.

Mentioning tank, yes there is a drain plug. Maybe enough room to rig up a trough to get the oil out of there. Maybe I should have cut a hole.... How often am I goin to drain it anyway????

Later....
-Pat

 

[xander9727]

I change the hydraulic oil once a year for equipment stored outside. If you store it inside you could change it every other year.
It's not that it gets dirty......it picks up acidity and condensation......both are bad for hydraulic components.

 

[tawilson]

I was talking about the motor oil. And I asked about the pump because I've dealt with water pumps that were supposed to be mounted in certain positions. Something about the bearings, but memory is failing.

 

[SilentElk]

Here's a quote from another post of mine visable on page 3 at http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?p=247506#post247506

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Alot depends on how fast you want your machine to move. Someone earlier said it right: PSI = power and GPM = Speed. Rule of thumb for hydraulics, assuming 85% pump efficency, is as follows:

1HP=1 Gpm @ 1500 psi

Theoretically based on the above said to run 22 GPM at 2500 psi will require 36.6 Hp engine. This however is NOT for a 2 stage pump. This is your basic single stage hydraulic pump.

The benefit of a 2 stage pump is the ability to gear down and provide higher PSI when a load is applied. A 2 stage pump will run at the higher flow until the pressure hits approx 650-750 psi. At which point the pump will gear down and provide approx 2500-3000 psi, 4 times higher than the 650-750, but the Gpm's (cylinder speed) will also be reduced by a factor of 4. On the higher pressure geared mode on a 22 gpm pump will move at 5.5 gpms.

Cylinder speeds*

4" bore @ 22 gpm = 405 in/per minute
4" bore @ 5.5 gpm= 101 in/per min.
5" bore @ 22 gpm = 259 in/per min.
5" bore @ 5.5gpm = 64.6 in/per min.
*these are for the push(power) stroke on cylinder. Retracting speeds will higher, with a large rod significantly higher, but vary dependant on rod diameter.

Power based on PSI and cylinder size

4" bore @ 750 psi = 9428 lbs
4" bore @ 3000 psi =37,710 lbs ( about 19 tons)
5" bore @ 750 psi = 14,730 lbs
5" bore @ 3000psi = 58,920 lbs (about 29.5 tons)

and for the Tim the tool man splitter...Hehe.... 14" bore @ 3000 psi = 461,700 lbs (231 tons!! I had to throw that in there)

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At 6 hp, the best you are going to achieve is 3 gpm @ 3000 psi or more realistically 4 GPM at about 2500 psi. You really need at least 8 -10 hp. Then you can drive that thing. That thing is great btw! Where in CO you located Patrick? Fort Collins/Loveland here. If you were close enough, could I come and see it in person? It would make my day