Veggie oil?

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is veggie oil funky or skunky?

  • funky

    Votes: 74 73.3%
  • skunky

    Votes: 27 26.7%

  • Total voters
    101
That says it all, Austin.

Isn't it interesting? Cheaper, pours better in the cold, excellent lubricicity, doesn't stink, isn't sticky, washes out of your cloths better, biodegradable, renewable, non-toxic. That's acceptable reason for change.

sawsong said:
one of the older guys on our team when i mentioned this commented that 30 years ago or so at college they were always told to use veggie oil and always did because it was cheap and good for the environment... bar oil is just horrid stuff!

was this a widely held belief back then? if so, what went wrong between then and now?

Could it be that big oil has their influences with ANYONE who is a customer of theirs? A move to veggie 30 years ago would mean diminished revenues for big oil into the future. Where would they market their low-grade, bottom-of-the-barrel crap? Lobbying and influence get decisions made and if we 'extreme end users' don't question the practice, big oil gets bigger and we each spray 50 or a hundred gallons of petroleum oil into the environment in a year. The giant petro corporations laugh all the way to the bank. What do they care?

OK, maybe I'm speculating a wee bit.

In Sweden, I do believe regular petro bar oil is illegal to use except where specifically designated. I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure. We may have to ask one of our Swedish brothers.


If vegetable oil is recommended and used within the country that the saws are designed and built, but not in this country, why not the U.S.? If we once were but now aren't,... why?

Hmmmm. Draw your own conclusions on that one.


Mange, Eriksberg, you out there?
Skralle? SWE#Kipp, Maccall. We want confirmation on this
How bout one of you Swedes commenting on this 'rumor'. Are there other countries that ban regular bar oil for use in chainsaws?
 
Not on this thread, 2-cycle stuff should be taken up with the experts in the chainsaw forum. Tons of expertise there, like nowhere else.

This thread is specifically chainsaw bar and chain lubrication and issues surrounding the use of vegetable oil in the tools of Arboriculture.
 
That says it all, Austin.

Isn't it interesting? Cheaper, pours better in the cold, excellent lubricity, doesn't stink, isn't sticky, washes out of your cloths better, biodegradable, renewable, non-toxic. That's acceptable reason for change.



Could it be that big oil has their influences with ANYONE who is a customer of theirs? A move to veggie 30 years ago would mean diminished revenues for big oil into the future. Where would they market their low-grade, bottom-of-the-barrel crap? Lobbying and influence get decisions made and if we 'extreme end users' don't question the practice, big oil gets bigger and we each spray 50 or a hundred gallons of petroleum oil into the environment in a year. The giant petro corporations laugh all the way to the bank. What do they care?

OK, maybe I'm speculating a wee bit.

In Sweden, I do believe regular petrol bar oil is illegal to use except where specifically designated. I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure. We may have to ask one of our Swedish brothers.


If vegetable oil is recommended and used within the country that the saws are designed and built, but not in this country, why not the U.S.? If we once were but now aren't,... why?

Hmmmm. Draw your own conclusions on that one.


Mange, Eriksberg, you out there?
Skralle? SWE#Kipp, Maccall. We want confirmation on this
How bout one of you Swedes commenting on this 'rumor'. Are there other countries that ban regular bar oil for use in chainsaws?


I can try...

There is a demand from some of the forrest company's that there will be no use of dino oil in their proses, In any form. Not in harvesters, forwarders or chainsaws. These have a demand on the fuel to. Alcylate fuel only, no home brewed at all.
There is some forrests that are protected by government law and these all have this too regardless of landowners thoughts or wishes.

The veg. oil's sold here is actually not bad, but it is pricey and if not used correct will destroy the saw.
It is a good lube, but not good enough IMO. The bar/chain run hotter and if it sit's for a couple of day's with get stiff and I mean in a way that will course damage!
Chain's not used for a while is not possible to bend in the rivet's.
The wurst thing with this is that it needs a special method of cleaning as it is worse to get of than sap from the trees.

IMO this is no good thing for others than proffessionals that use their saws daily without exeption and have very good service for the saws.
 
Here's the big question.

In oil you voice problems with, does that have a tack additive? Does it have ANY additive beyond natural, food-grade oil. Why is it expensive?

I ask because I do not experience the problems you mention. Expense, hot-running chain or stiff rivets.

This is really important, Mange. Thank you for helping.
 
as an addition to my earlier post regarding the engineering of oil crop varieties, it may be of general interest to some that soon to grace the shelves will be a food oil version of linseed oil, which was up until now was more than unfit for human consumption.

im gonna try and seek out a price for bulk drums of rape oil here in the uk, the H not the L

who knows, we can but hope that there will soon be a rape variety grown specifically and even better suited for lubricating chain bars and other metal to metal components
 
I report near-perfection in lubricity. Other users report a HOST of other overall benefits.

How much better do we need it? Not being sarcastic, but in a practical sense?

I think if the enviro oil guys would take the tack out of the canola oil, they'd have a good product that didn't STICK all over everything it touches. It would be called 'Canola Oil'.

I am going way out on a limb here. Tree Machine is not an expert, he's just one of you guys, uses saws a lot, cuts more firewood than most people on earth.

This is a real stretch, totally hypothetical, just...a thought in concept only.
If a tack additive makes the oil sticky, then more of the oil will stick to surfaces other than a chainsaw chain, namely the rest of the chainsaw. So the chainsaw 'holds' more oil (i.e., it sticks to more things.) If the newly deposited sticky oil hangs out on open-air surfaces, if it is bar, it builds up till it falls of or is cleaned off. The chain and bar, they are in contact with the lubricant for only a split second or two or three or whatever, but ALL THE REST OF THE TIME beyond that, you get to deal with the sticky oil. Bar oil is horrible this way. Whatever it touches, it tends to cover the surface, bar oil is hard to clean, smelly often involves other harsh petroleum solvents.

That is tack in regular bar oil.

Tack in vegetable oil (namely Canola), ie. Bio-Oil also is in contact with the bar and chain for only mere moments, and with the stickiness, tends to stay stuck on after-surfaces for longer. Would this be safe to assume? Veggie oil is going to bio-degrade, that is one of it's shining benefits. But if it stays stuck to the surfaces, and then oxidizes, THEN what do you have? Degraded lipid residue and tack. And Mange says it takes special care to clean these saws? I would imagine.

In a chainsaw system, regardless of whether the lubricant is dino or veggie, saw users in general, but especially Arborists, we want the lubricant to do it's job, and then go away. We don't need it any more. We cast it to the environment as casually as peeing in the woods. However, some oil stays on the saw, and it builds up over time. My big theory here is, the more sticky the oil, the more the oil will want to stay stuck on the saw. But we just want it to go away. We don't want it gumming up our saw parts. We want it gone.

Does it seem like tack is really doing us any benefit here? If MORE bio oil is left to build up, the oxidized oil by-products, held captive by the tack, remain on air-exposed surfaces and don't leave willingly. This is complicating things for us.

With grocery shelf veggie, it lubricates very well, sticks very little thereafter and 'goes away', out into the environment which is our only real choice in the matter. Less that 'sticks' means more that falls off.

My saws are easier to clean than when I used dino bar. Cleaner on my hands, cleaner on the work surfaces, or on my clients' lawn which is where a lot of oil crud goes. The saws still NEED to be cleaned as part of normal, ongoing maintenance, but doing it is less of a toxic chore so I'm likely to do it more often, just a guess? Cleaning for me is scraping out the sidecase/clutch area with a screwdriver once or twice a week and cleaning the bar groove at least weekly. Brass brush ever month or so. Comressed air, every other month, deep clean once a year. It's easy. Any accumulated oil/sawdust just falls off. It doesn't 'stick'. Go figure :rolleyes:


This brings us to a big quetion....?


Is Tack the root of all evil?
 
very good point

and for the argument of the vegi oil not being great if the saw is being left for a long time, surely brushing a bit onto the chain before putting it into storage would be more than sufficient? from what i gather, canola oil adheres and 'takes' well to metal anyway,

and in response to your question re: tack, yes, i do indeed think its the root of all evil, since the oil will be ejected continually anyway, at such a rate that any oil would stay on the chain and bar 'long enough' without a doubt. the tack in my opinion is fairly redundant and just makes the oil more of a nuisance!

and in conclusion, it seems odd people saying their bars run hotter with vegy oil. although no science is involved, my perception is that my bar runs cooler due to the slight increase of oil that actually is applied to the bar by the oiler
 
and in conclusion, it seems odd people saying their bars run hotter with vegy oil. although no science is involved, my perception is that my bar runs cooler due to the slight increase of oil that actually is applied to the bar by the oiler
I'm not sure there's more oil going on, just that what's going on is doing a better job.
On my Husky power ported 346XP I am running an 8-pin 3/8 sprocket and pushing a mini chain around a 14" carving bar. The carving bar has no sprocket. I don't run it loose, like the carving guys.

This is super speed for a chain on bar, as fast as anything outside of the chainsaw racing world.

The tip shows zero discoloration, as well as zero discoloration on any other part of the bar. The bar is a year old and I have yet to dress it. It has worn beautifully. That's all I can say.

On the 2-footer and 3-footer on the 395's, pretty much the same thing- roller tips are fine and the rails are fine with no discoloration. I attribute this more to not running dull chain.
 
I'm not sure there's more oil going on, just that what's going on is doing a better job.
On my Husky power ported 346XP I am running an 8-pin 3/8 sprocket and pushing a mini chain around a 14" carving bar. The carving bar has no sprocket. I don't run it loose, like the carving guys.

This is super speed for a chain on bar, as fast as anything outside of the chainsaw racing world.

The tip shows zero discoloration, as well as zero discoloration on any other part of the bar. The bar is a year old and I have yet to dress it. It has worn beautifully. That's all I can say.

On the 2-footer and 3-footer on the 395's, pretty much the same thing- roller tips are fine and the rails are fine with no discoloration. I attribute this more to not running dull chain.
That is what I found using canola oil Very clean! I said this before I only cut wood to heat my home and work shop, but I really like using this oil; since it is grown in my ''back yard'' Canada is one of the biggest producers of it. It is cheap and does not gum up like so ya based oils. Still after the fire wood season for me that is spring I do wash out my saws with Naphtha at least the oil tank but I always did that! It is really good to here from you guy's that use your saw's everyday! I am so jealous! I always say a sharp chain makes a big difference I never have to force any of my saws through the wood.
 
. I have one saw I filled with canola in March 1, 2006, and then put it up on a shelf. I'll open it up, check it out and run it on the one year date. This is a test, just to know what would happen.

Hey, Tree Machine. What were the results of this test? Sorry to dig up this thread, but I remember you saying this but haven't seen any published results. Thanks
 
The veg. oil's sold here is actually not bad, but it is pricey and if not used correct will destroy the saw.
It is a good lube, but not good enough IMO. The bar/chain run hotter and if it sit's for a couple of day's with get stiff and I mean in a way that will course damage!
Chain's not used for a while is not possible to bend in the rivet's.
The wurst thing with this is that it needs a special method of cleaning as it is worse to get of than sap from the trees.

IMO this is no good thing for others than proffessionals that use their saws daily without exeption and have very good service for the saws.


I was planning to try veggie oil many months back, but haven't done much cutting this winter due to an injury. (Haven't done much of anything outdoors!)

A week or so ago I looked into it again. Thought I'd give it a try as I had some cutting to do. I was going to use some canola - straight supermarket, food grade canola. I have a jug that I've been using for other non-food things. It's been sitting since last fall. When I took the top off, I found a ring of crystallized oil around the opening, very sticky, gummy, nasty, whatever bad word you want to use.

Hmmmm. Like the man said, maybe if you run it every day, but I don't think I'm going to be using it in my saws.

I really like the idea of using veggie oil, for all the environmental reasons, but I'm not going to wreck my equipment to do it! A little extra cleaning would be okay. I'd pay that 'price' to use veggie oil. I can even live with a little faster wear of the bar & chain. But based on what I saw, I think there's going to be MAJOR flushing and cleaning of the whole oiler system every time I want to put my saw away. That's just not workable for me.

Unless someone can show me a way to use it without it gumming up my saw, I'll just have to wait for a better alternative. :(
 
From the various 'disadvantages' quoted for Canola oil, one, the tendency to get rancid is something that can be overcome.
All vegetable oil oxidize, some faster than others and they all contain some preservative to reduce this tendency to an acceptable level. However since they are for eating and not for sawchain lubrication, the amount of antioxidants in them is limited since many are rather detrimental to our health.
One preservative that is synthetic, non toxic and readily available in any chemical supplier is Thiodipropionic acid. A bit of experimentation or inquiring with the supplier will give the appropriate doses of additional preservative that will make the oil stable for a long time.
 
Thank you, Mange and Blue Ridge and Marc and Beowulf. Input and perspective on all this is valuable to the body of information we've got going. It's important, also, to sort out impression from fact.

Let's start in order of the last few posters. Mange, our friend from Sweden says their veggie is expensive. he says
The veg. oil's sold here is actually not bad, but it is pricey and if not used correct will destroy the saw.
It is a good lube, but not good enough IMO. The bar/chain run hotter and if it sit's for a couple of day's with get stiff and I mean in a way that will course damage!
Chain's not used for a while is not possible to bend in the rivet's.
The wurst thing with this is that it needs a special method of cleaning as it is worse to get of than sap from the trees.
Since it is expensive, I am assuming they're talking about commercial bio oil from the saw shops. Mange, please correct me on this as I try very hard not to assume things while trying to seperate impression from fact.

No one in the last 2-1/2 years of these ongoing veggie threads has claimed that if the oil is used wrong it will destroy the saw. My question would be, how do you use the oil wrong? and what is meant by destroy?

The stiff chain issue, there is truth to that because, of course, the chain is 100% exposed to air and oxygen, and gets hot, accelerating any chemical reaction. I swap bars and chains regularly on the big saws, from 2-foot to three-foot and back and forth as needed. While the 'off' bar and chain are not in use they just sit there, exposed to oxygen. The chain gets stiff. I clean inside the bar rail, the oil hole areas, a quick brass brush to both sides of the bar where it interfaces with the saw and put the chain back on. Before I tighten the nuts, I fire up the saw, rev it a few times to get the chain spinning at high speed then shut her down. TUG the stiff chain by hand, tighten as necessary and then tighten the bolts down.

I have always found the chain to no longer be stiff.

Right now I'm on vacation, though I usually do 2 or three tree jobs here in Florida when I come down. My folks live here, my dad is in the lawn care business and I have a couple saddles, ropes, spurs and kit, as well as my saw, a husky 350 and his assortment of smaller saws (everything from Remington to Poulan, Echo and a Stihl power pruner). Wisely, I have bought him as couple Silky saws and replacement blades and recently a corona pole pruner bull lopper and three new poles. I know a few of you are asking why I would do tree work while on vacation, but if you're a full-time treeguy you already understand.

The point to this seemingly off-topic is very on-topic. My wife and I travel regularly, and usually for several weeks at a time. When I come down to Florida, my 350 has been sitting since the last time I came down, usually 3-6 months. When I go back home, my saws have been sitting idle for several weeks. I have been using straight, off the shelf veggie oil for better than three years now and this travel cycle has been consistent, though a Hawaii trip was six weeks and a New Zealand trip was 2 months.

The point is, even though my saws get regular, professional use, they also sit idle and unused for lengthy periods. I have never, ever flushed an oil tank or used 'special' cleaners on bar, chains or saw. True, I note a stiff chain after a period of non-use but I can't say it has ever been a problem, just a characteristic.

My family is calling me for breakfast. I'll try to get back and address Blue Ridge and Marc and Beowulf. For now, I'll leave you with a couple pics of how NOT to prune palm trees.
 
Another thought on 'stiff' chains.
As it was mentioned before, vegetable oil oxidizes or rather polymerizes faster under pressure and temperature, something that occurs when oil is used as lubricant.
If a chain is hot from cutting, and put away hot, the oil on said chain will polymerize fast. If the same saw is let to cool down and then fired up and revved a bit with lots of oil to flush the cooked oil with fresh one, I m sure the time that new oil takes to get stiff will be much longer.
 
From the various 'disadvantages' quoted for Canola oil, one, the tendency to get rancid is something that can be overcome.
All vegetable oil oxidize, some faster than others and they all contain some preservative to reduce this tendency to an acceptable level. However since they are for eating and not for sawchain lubrication, the amount of antioxidants in them is limited since many are rather detrimental to our health.
One preservative that is synthetic, non toxic and readily available in any chemical supplier is Thiodipropionic acid. A bit of experimentation or inquiring with the supplier will give the appropriate doses of additional preservative that will make the oil stable for a long time.
I have been trying to get out almost once a month to cut fire wood! but with work and weather conditions it is tuff. But so far the stuff in my oil tank has held up well. At the most it has been sitting for 40 day's. As far as the chain goes Canola attracts far less dust than reg sticky smelly bar oil doe's. But I would'nt use anything but pure canola!
As I did some test's by putting a little on some 2x 1/4 cold rolled flatbar in the garage the so ya stuff got sticky in about three day's the canola stayed liquid and not sticky for more than five day's. And olive oil would'nt even poor out at -10c so I elimanted that one.
 
research surrounding veggie

I'm very willing to be convinced! Keep talking!
I appreciate your willingness to consider and be open to new possibilities. However, I'm not here to 'convince' anyone. Initially, I was just sharing my personal experience, as I still do, but now it's more a matter of seperating fact from fallacy.

What I mean by this is, we have a growing body of information going on here, whether we realize it or not. Research (in a nutshell) is the gathering of valid data and analyzing it to come up with conclusions. Research is not trying to prove something right, but rather, trying to prove it wrong. The scientific method starts with a hypothesis and devises experiments to test the hypothesis.

A hypothesis is an educated guess about something, in our case, the guess that "Food-grade, non-tackified vegetable oil can be used successfully as a bar and chain lubricant in a chainsaw system." Our 'experiment' is based on personal feedback from those using straight, off-the-shelf, NON-TACKIFIED grocery-grade vegetable oil in their chainsaws. We are all experimental subjects, in effect, Guinea pigs, since this area of research has very little published data. What is currently out there amounts to a small scattering of published articles. Research, good research, will have large numbers of subjects, all doing the same thing within the same experiment, and eventually comparing the data and drawing conclusions from it. The internet has allowed us to assemble in good numbers and for us to all volunteer willingly to be part of this.

A 'blind' study would be me handing you either the experimental compound (veggie oil), or the 'control' (regular bar oil) and I would know which is which, but you would not. A double-blind study would be me handing you random samples of either the test product, or control, and neither I nor you would know which is which. Double blind removes any personal bias on the part of the researcher who might want the results to show one direction or the other.

Our 'experiment' can not be anything like a clinical trial. It can't be blind or double blind but that does not mean we can't compile solid data and eventual results. Our information pool expands into areas like pricing and environmental temperature, different saw manufacturers, different saw sizes, bar lengths, chain types, usage frequency, usage style, different oils in the veggie family (canola, corn, soy, etc), you get what I mean by this. Our data is hardly quantifiable (measurable) which is fundamental to objective research. Our research is more subjective (non-measurable) and our 'data' is purely empirical (gotten based on direct use). If the research is good, the 'experiments' can be replicated and the results will remain consistent, anywhere in the world. The key is for all the subjects to be doing basically the same thing.

This wasn't planned from the beginning, it's sort of fallen into place. As said before, I am not here to 'convince' anyone. I've assumed the role of keeping the information valid.

For instance, Blue Ridge Mark, earlier, contributed that he saw a sticky, gummy ring around the cap area of a veggie oil bottle that had been sitting around since last Fall and made a conclusion that he was not going to risk his saws based on that. That contribution is appreciated and though it may move others in an emotional way, the observation had absolutely nothing to do with a chainsaw, a chain, a bar or lubrication in a chainsaw system whatsoever. This is an observation outside of our 'experiment' and has no place in the data or eventual results. Mange brought in commentary about bio-oil in harvesters and forwarders, as well as chainsaws and how if used improperly could destroy the equipment. There was no confirmation whether this oil was tackified bio oil from the saw shop or grocery veggie. We are working SPECIFICALLY with food-grade vegetable oil in chainsaw systems, so the commentary, although valuable and appreciated does not fit into our data pool.

This is what I mean. Research is designed to produce unbiassed results from legitimate data. This is why we don't put research trials on the health aspects of cigarette smoking in the hands of cigarette companies- the data and results would undoubtedly be biassed and shown to prove what they want the research to show. This is not research. That would be manipulation of information to achieve some sort of advantage.

I hope you all can see that I have no vested interest in this. No one is paying me a single coin to produce data to show something one way or the other. There is no benefit in this for me, nor will there be. True, I care about the environment and your health, but if I thought veggie oil was going to trash your saws, I would not be here volunteering countless hours to guide this along. I consider my place to be unbiassed; I want to know if using veggie is good, but I certainly want to know if it is bad.

The challenge here for all of us is overcoming the emotion surrounding it all. Moving to veggie represents change. Change scares the crap out of many people, even if it is for the better. Sometimes agreeing that the 'new thing' is right means, subconciously, you have to admit that the old thing was wrong, and nobody likes to be wrong. Resistance to change is part of our makeup as humans so embrace it, but at the same time, understand it.

Just consider, this is not about right or wrong, old vs. new, or his way vs. my way. Keep in perspective, this is about can "Food-grade, non-tackified vegetable oil be used successfully as a bar and chain lubricant in a chainsaw system." ? Through the testing of this question we hope to come up with all the peripheral details of what are the nitty gritty details associated with the use, what are the advantages, disadvantages and what can can be done to overcome any disadvantages.

Sorry so long-winded. It's not required that we all agree, but it is important that we are on the same sheet of paper if we're looking to answer the same questions.
 
I just stumbled onto this, just curious how many are still buying into the "veggie oil" crap now that tortillas are hovering around $2.00 for a twelve pack.
 

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