WHAT is it about chainsaws-?

[barton174]

My boss (Sr. Engineer, car guy, boat guy, etc.) knows I'm into saws, so he asked me to look at his locked up Poulan to see if it was fixable. I fixed it in 30 seconds, by turning off the chain brake that he didn't know existed...

A buddy of mine, growing up (we were maybe 16), had his dad's 026 when we were clearing a tree from a neighbor's property (I had my dad's CS440). The chain was getting really tight, and literally sparking as it went around. I asked him if the oiler was broken or something, and he responded that his dad had changed the oil in it right before he took it to do this job. Doh! I explained to him that the oil was for the bar, not the engine, and you fill the oil every time you add fuel. It was fine after that.

All kinds of things about chainsaws that, while pretty simple, are different than even otherwise knowledgable people are used to looking out for.

The professor that I was an assistant for (Automotive Electronic Controls class) at Purdue had a 928. Really interesting car, but like most other "German Engineered" cars, lots of things on it that were 2x as many parts as needed, 2x more cost than needed, 1/2 the longevity, and 4x the service cost, for something that works 5% better than the way other people design stuff. Very similar to the rear suspension on the Dodge Magnum (Mercedes E-class). Like 25 bushings in the rear suspension that turn to #### in 50,000 miles, but work great for the first 25k miles; as opposed to a standard rear suspension that lasts 200k miles with a strut change in the middle, without being touched.

Mike

 

[C SAW 090]

Stihl does not allow there products to be sold in big box stores.

Thank you, I was hoping someone would say it!!!

 

[C SAW 090]

I still think the key to using a poulan or any small saw homelite, husky or stihl, is the mantinence. Doesnt matter what you pay for a new saw if you dont know how to use it,keep it sharp and know what to do with. Its bound to turn into a piece of shiat, always seem to be the people that dont understand this that have the problems. This makes me wanna go to wal mart and buy a poulan, port it and put it in the fire wood pile. I bet I could run that saw for years to come if I am patient with it, and mantain it properly.:msp_thumbup: Anyone agree??

 

[cowroy]

When you guys say big box store I assume you mean somewhere that is a dealer where you can just pick up a saw, walk up to the counter, and walk out the door with a saw?

Ace hardware is a national chain and some ACE stores do as they should and fill your saw with mix and oil and start it up and make sure everything is as it should be. There are also ACE stores that act just like Home Depot or Lowes that will let you buy a saw and could care less whether it is right or not.

So as sacred as Stihl may seem, they still want to sell saws and who could blame them.

The last time I was in an ace store all they had were the non pro clam buckets that are the cheapest ones Stihl sells.

Most of the time what I have found in life is......... YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR

 

[Tommy in Wilton]

Might depend on the OP's definition of 'big box store'. I see STIHL saws sold in larger format, multi-location stores, including 'farm and fleet' type stores, contractor tool outlets, and hardware stores the size of an big city supermarket. I don't know the details of the STIHL dealer agreement, but somehow these guys must meet them.

That said, a lot of guys keep their Craftsman, Poulan, and homeowner Husqvarna saws going for a lot of years with a little bit of care. Surprised that a Porsche gearhead would not be attracted to a German engineered saw. First time I worked on an MS250 I was struck by the engineering detail, even though this was an 'occasional use' saw.

Not sure that I would give my mother an old iron type saw to use . Probably more likely to think of a modern electric saw or the 40 volt cordless one.

Philbert

There really is not a tradition of German saws to attract the eyes and attention of a gearhead. Stihl makes good products, but McCulloch is a far more interesting group for something like a chainsaw, since they have built 2 stroke engines since the 1950's.

T

 

[RandyMac]

Robert McCulloch started making two cycle motors in 1943, first chainsaw in 1948.

Most stihls have the pizzazz of a microwave oven.

 

[Tommy in Wilton]

Sort of back to the OPs post- If someone, (even a mechanically inclined someone), has burned up two saws, (even cheap saws), in a short period of time, we need to be having a look at how these saws are being run, how their chains have been adjusted, what's going into the tanks.

A friend of mine who's had Stihls for many years bought a new 362 one day last Fall while I happened to be at the dealership, took it home and immediately smoked a bar and chain because he never thought to open the bar oil tank and look. The saw had been gassed by the dealer. Why it had not had oil added, I don't know. I expect that assumptions were made by both parties.

From a safety perspective, I would also submit that for someone who is somewhat new to chainsaw use, a 'muscle saw' is perhaps not an ideal choice at the beginning. Chainsaws are very controllable and entertaining to use, right up until the instant that they're uncontrollable and dangerous.

My heartfelt advice to the OP would be to befriend someone with knowledge of chainsaws and their use, perhaps try out some different saws in a semi-instructional setting, and proceed to the purchase of a new(er) saw and some PPE. There's a ton of info here on AS about saw selection and safety, if there's nobody local.

Vintage saws are wonderful, I've got a few myself, but chainbrakes are awesome, too.

That's a valid point, the thing about burning up two saws.

-If it was only ONE saw, then the chances of operator error being the cause would be high. But two saws? Not likely.

My qualifications: I have rebuilt the intake manifold of an '85 Porsche 928S2, have changed its clutch, and have maintained this car with my own hands for the past 13 years. I have changed the head gasket of a Fiat Spyder and an 85 hp Yamaha outboard. I have changed several radiators on various cars, have done EVERY oil/coolant/brake fluid change on the 10 cars that I have owned since 1984, and they were all successful. I was changing the oil on my dad's cars when I was 8. Professionally, I fly Boeing 727 jets for a cargo airline, and have been captain on this equipment and the Boeing 747, which I used to fly world wide.

Here's me at work in 2006, those are my ears that you will be looking at: Boeing 747 takeoff from JFK - YouTube

I'm not trying to beat my own drum or anything, [frankly I think I'm dumber than a box of rocks.....] but when I tell you that I mixed the gas and oil correctly....trust me, it got done right. Those saws died on me for NO reason other than manufacturer stupidity; They cheapened up the saws so much that they die after two uses. And they set them from the factory to run so lean that they cannot help to burn up!

This is not an attack at you, since you had a VALID point. But the saws died not due to my negligence, trust me!

T

 

[Tommy in Wilton]

Robert McCulloch started making two cycle motors in 1943, first chainsaw in 1948.

Most stihls have the pizzazz of a microwave oven.

Well, they are after all, yard appliances....

-I know what you mean. Stihl's are also multiple-hundred dollar machines. I might have use of a chainsaw twice per year; Spending that kind of coin for something like that makes no sense. The McC I bought from this guy in Vermont [instantly cool!] was $125, so it was pretty cheap, and the thing is friggin' "chainzilla"! I'm sure I'll make it work in the end, I bought the carb rebuild kit and I'm rebuilding it tonight between trips to my MacBook to post this stuff.

T

 

[Tommy in Wilton]

oldmar,

-If it was only ONE saw, then the chances of operator error being the cause would be high. But two saws? Not likely.

My qualifications: I have rebuilt the intake manifold of an '85 Porsche 928S2, have changed its clutch, and have maintained this car with my own hands for the past 13 years. I have changed the head gasket of a Fiat Spyder and an 85 hp Yamaha outboard. I have changed several radiators on various cars, have done EVERY oil/coolant/brake fluid change on the 10 cars that I have owned since 1984, and they were all successful. I was changing the oil on my dad's cars when I was 8. Professionally, I fly Boeing 727 jets for a cargo airline, and have been captain on this equipment and the Boeing 747, which I used to fly world wide.

Here's me at work in 2006, those are my ears that you will be looking at: Boeing 747 takeoff from JFK - YouTube

I'm not trying to beat my own drum or anything, [frankly I think I'm dumber than a box of rocks.....] but when I tell you that I mixed the gas and oil correctly....trust me, it got done right. Those saws died on me for NO reason other than manufacturer stupidity; They cheapened up the saws so much that they die after two uses. And they set them from the factory to run so lean that they cannot help to burn up!

This is not an attack at you, since you had a VALID point. But the saws died not due to my negligence, trust me!

T

 

[Tommy in Wilton]

My boss (Sr. Engineer, car guy, boat guy, etc.) knows I'm into saws, so he asked me to look at his locked up Poulan to see if it was fixable. I fixed it in 30 seconds, by turning off the chain brake that he didn't know existed...

A buddy of mine, growing up (we were maybe 16), had his dad's 026 when we were clearing a tree from a neighbor's property (I had my dad's CS440). The chain was getting really tight, and literally sparking as it went around. I asked him if the oiler was broken or something, and he responded that his dad had changed the oil in it right before he took it to do this job. Doh! I explained to him that the oil was for the bar, not the engine, and you fill the oil every time you add fuel. It was fine after that.

All kinds of things about chainsaws that, while pretty simple, are different than even otherwise knowledgable people are used to looking out for.

The professor that I was an assistant for (Automotive Electronic Controls class) at Purdue had a 928. Really interesting car, but like most other "German Engineered" cars, lots of things on it that were 2x as many parts as needed, 2x more cost than needed, 1/2 the longevity, and 4x the service cost, for something that works 5% better than the way other people design stuff. Very similar to the rear suspension on the Dodge Magnum (Mercedes E-class). Like 25 bushings in the rear suspension that turn to #### in 50,000 miles, but work great for the first 25k miles; as opposed to a standard rear suspension that lasts 200k miles with a strut change in the middle, without being touched.

Mike

Mike-

Your comments about the 928 are spot-on. This car's problem is that Porsche tried to turn a performance car into a Cadillac, and they used cheap parts to do it. The drivetrain is literally bullet-proof [as long as you change the timing belt every 45,000 miles...], but things like the sunroof, the cruise control, the air conditioner? They are cheap and will certainly fail. And if you take it to a shop, prepare to be anally raped! They see that gold-plated crest on the hood and they literally salivate, thinking about all the money they are going to [try] to charge you. That is why I do all the work on my car myself, and as a result I have a very tight and perfect running car. If you want something done right, do it yourself!

T

 

[Chris-PA]

My qualifications: I have rebuilt the intake manifold of an '85 Porsche 928S2, have changed its clutch, and have maintained this car with my own hands for the past 13 years. I have changed the head gasket of a Fiat Spyder and an 85 hp Yamaha outboard. I have changed several radiators on various cars, have done EVERY oil/coolant/brake fluid change on the 10 cars that I have owned since 1984, and they were all successful. I was changing the oil on my dad's cars when I was 8.

Honestly, that level of experience is nothing out of the ordinary around here, and working on cars does not really prepare you for the details of chainsaws. I understand the workings of a whole lot of carbs and fuel injection systems, but that doesn't mean I knew how to tune a chainsaw - it's not magic, it's just specific knowledge you either have or don't. You never said what exactly "burned up" on those saws, but other than the newest auto tune saws all of them need to be tuned properly or pistons and cylinders can be damaged. Macs are neat, and I may someday get an old one - there is no need to justify getting one if they interest you by bashing other saws. Hopefully the one you got has an iron cylinder liner and is a bit hardier than your previous saws, because whatever happened to your cheap saws can happen to that one too.

 

[Horsepwraddict]

I spin the big wrenches for a living. Chainsaws are cheap (compared to anything diesel) and I can start to finish rebuild one in a day and be running it. It's instant gratification for me, it just so happens that my gearhead tendencies can be excersized with saws, which makes cuttin wood (a necessity for me) fun. Working on saws is relaxing for me, it's easy as anything mechanical comes naturally to me and it's not labor intensive like working on trucks is.

That's what "chainsaws is" for me

 

[Yoopermike]

I spin the big wrenches for a living. Chainsaws are cheap (compared to anything diesel) and I can start to finish rebuild one in a day and be running it. It's instant gratification for me, it just so happens that my gearhead tendencies can be excersized with saws, which makes cuttin wood (a necessity for me) fun. Working on saws is relaxing for me, it's easy as anything mechanical comes naturally to me and it's not labor intensive like working on trucks is.

That's what "chainsaws is" for me

This ^ 110%!!

 

[StihlyinEly]

Robert McCulloch started making two cycle motors in 1943, first chainsaw in 1948.

Most stihls have the pizzazz of a microwave oven.

Yeah? Really? You wanna fight? Cmon!!!!! :angry2:

OK, in reality I got nothing. When a feller is right, he's right. :redface:

 

[Sagetown]

Tommy says he mixed the fuel correctly. That said; he got a couple of lemons. No matter what the Brand, you'll find a saw that's made to destruct because somebody didn't do their part in the assembly process. If it's a used one, then buyer beware.:msp_thumbup::msp_w00t:

 

[Tommy in Wilton]

I spin the big wrenches for a living. Chainsaws are cheap (compared to anything diesel) and I can start to finish rebuild one in a day and be running it. It's instant gratification for me, it just so happens that my gearhead tendencies can be excersized with saws, which makes cuttin wood (a necessity for me) fun. Working on saws is relaxing for me, it's easy as anything mechanical comes naturally to me and it's not labor intensive like working on trucks is.

That's what "chainsaws is" for me

Hah hah hah! I feel like I spin the big wrenches for a living too. I'm a flight engineer on the 727, the third man in the cockpit, and I perform the preflight on the 727. I find problems on this 45 year old airplane...

[I LOVE this airplane! There are airliners, and then there are 727's!]

all the time. Usually, when I find a problem, I call maintenance and tell them what is wrong. I usually also tell them how to fix the problem. They usually acknowledge my advice...then go ahead and MEL or "defer" or delay the maintenance on the broken item.

It's cool, we need to keep the airplanes in the air, and usually it is minor crap that means nothing anyway.

Chainsaws, because of their small size and low cost, are a fun subject.

T!

 

[Tommy in Wilton]

Yeah? Really? You wanna fight? Cmon!!!!! :angry2:

OK, in reality I got nothing. When a feller is right, he's right. :redface:

OK, you boys settle down. YOU are GOING to get spankings-

T

 

[Tommy in Wilton]

OK, you boys settle down. YOU are GOING to get spankings-

T

ONE more word and I am going to turn this chainsaw right around.....

 

[oldmar]

oldmar,

-If it was only ONE saw, then the chances of operator error being the cause would be high. But two saws? Not likely.

My qualifications: I have rebuilt the intake manifold of an '85 Porsche 928S2, have changed its clutch, and have maintained this car with my own hands for the past 13 years. I have changed the head gasket of a Fiat Spyder and an 85 hp Yamaha outboard. I have changed several radiators on various cars, have done EVERY oil/coolant/brake fluid change on the 10 cars that I have owned since 1984, and they were all successful. I was changing the oil on my dad's cars when I was 8. Professionally, I fly Boeing 727 jets for a cargo airline, and have been captain on this equipment and the Boeing 747, which I used to fly world wide.

Here's me at work in 2006, those are my ears that you will be looking at: Boeing 747 takeoff from JFK - YouTube

I'm not trying to beat my own drum or anything, [frankly I think I'm dumber than a box of rocks.....] but when I tell you that I mixed the gas and oil correctly....trust me, it got done right. Those saws died on me for NO reason other than manufacturer stupidity; They cheapened up the saws so much that they die after two uses. And they set them from the factory to run so lean that they cannot help to burn up!

This is not an attack at you, since you had a VALID point. But the saws died not due to my negligence, trust me!

T

Sorry if we got off on the wrong foot. I was thinking more about chain adjustment and bar lube than anything motor-related. My thought would be that one failure would not necessarily point to operator error, but two failures would certainly tend to indicate just that. I mean no offense, (really I don't) but if a guy comes into the shop having burned up multiple saws, we're not looking at the saws quite as hard as we're looking at the guy. I take your point that home-center saws are not of the utmost quality.

We share a background in automotive know-how, I started working on cars in the 80s, and have more than a few German cars under my belt. I have made my living fixing cars (and bicycles, and guitars, and clarinets, and pretty much anything with moving parts) on and off for better than twenty years. There are not very many things that I can't fix, automotive and otherwise, but my understanding of two strokes, chainsaws specifically, let's just say that there was, and still is, room for improvement. I (occasionally) get paid to repair chainsaws nowadays, and I have a very high rate of success, not that I'm really getting rich or anything. That said, I am a child compared to some of the guys on this forum. There is an astonishing amount of knowledge and experience on this forum, and I am smarter for every visit.

The homeowner-grade saws at the home centers are basically crap compared to pro saws, but they're usually good for a few dozen uses before they quit. You may have simply picked two lemons in a row, or perhaps another factor was involved.

My main point, my thesis if you will, was that a bit of instruction, particularly safety instruction, goes a long way. I have a good friend that I cut with pretty regularly, he's a GA pilot, and a technology professor when he's on the ground. He spends a fair amount of time asking questions of the "What are the things I should NOT do with this chainsaw?" variety. He's a bit cautious with chainsaws, which I think is a good place for anyone to be. These things have no brain, and they don't care what they're cutting.

Be safe, and I hope you find a saw that meets your needs.

 

[BrocLuno]

OK, don't take this the wrong way - but running a saw with out-of-the-box tuning IS operator error. I own may 9 brands of saws from Jonsered, Husky and Partner (Swedish) to Echo (Japanese) to Royobi (Taiwan) to Poulan/Craftsman) (USA). They all run for years and years if you know what you are doing as far as set-up, tuning, and maintenance.

You ship those burnt saws to me and I'll see that they get rebuilt and used by Park volunteers for the next 10 years or so. They are not bad products. They were just adjusted wrong and run w/o correcting the issues. High-speed air cooled two strokes are not water cooled Porsche's, or motorcycles, or jet engines. They are their own animals.

I don't dislike your idea of older Macs as good solid tools. My family knew and shared with upper echelon employees at McCulloch back in the day. My Pop got a free Mac from one of them as thanks for family camping them on our "resources". Been there and run them for a few decades, to say the least (since a 1-40 was a "new" saw). Built mini-bikes using Mac engines. Just bought three Mac rebuilders off the 'Bay to put into circulation at the local Park for forest management by the volunteer staff. Pretty tough and parts are still readily available.

But, before you go much further into this world, learn some tuning and set-up procedures. New saw - a few drops of Marvel Mystery Oil down the plug hole and spin her over a few times to make sure the rings are wet. It'll burn off soon enough. Mix the gas/oil a bit wet for the first few tank fulls. Say 36:1 with EGD/API-TC rated oil (choose your favorite poison). Keep the chain SHARP and moving. Bogging is bad. After say three tank fulls, you can run 40:1 all you want. Don't even reach for 50:1 until you really are skilled at tuning.

If they have EPA mufflers with cats (?), they need to come off and get a bit of mod as they trap too much heat in the motor and restrict breathing. This is not rocket science, but all these motor designs were laid down decades ago, adding new heat traps to older motor designs is creating teething problems like GM cars in the late 1970's.

We eventually got through the hurdles, but it was tough for a while. Add plastic chassis and such, and heat management is a issue to be taken seriously. So opening these mufflers up by 20% with a drill and die grinder will do a lot. Usually it's obvious - open the final discharge opening, drill a few holes in the inner ports to get better flow, etc. You can get much fancier, but this will do.

Get the right carb tuning tool for each saw you own before you ever attempt to run it. NEVER trust a factory tune. It was not done at your humidity/temp/altitude - and all two strokes are sensitive to tuning to meet atmospheric conditions. Once you have it dialed, it's good for most of a season, but you have to get there first. This applies to old Macs too. The lean thing is to get past EPA regs. It's not about a working motor running under load.

What brands of saws did you burn? If Poulan, you might want to look at getting another D009 bar mount brand like Husky or something. Might as well not toss good bars and chains. They are wear items, but they have a lot of usable life. Use them and learn to dress a bar, file a chain, set-up bar oil feed, etc.

You'll do OK, but you need to not hurry and ask what works, then think your way through it. You need to "pre-flight" a saw if you want it to live. There's just no way around it. It's part of basic safety and good tool maintenance.