when you have under bid...

[Mitchell]

Thanks again for all the advice

How do you approach asking for more money when you relieze you have seriously under bid. I am new to the game with one year on my own. I have underbid and reliezed it would be cheaper to walk with no pament and get on with oher work but I dont feel comfortable with that ethically. that is particularly as i live an die by referals. Ethcally speaking, how much is the customer responcible; in one case I have found out the next cheapest to my 700 was 1500! I have approuched these situation so far by asking for more time to do it when I dont have anything else to do.
cheers scott

 

[clearance]

Thanks again for all the advice

How do you approach asking for more money when you relieze you have seriously under bid. I am new to the game with one year on my own. I have underbid and reliezed it would be cheaper to walk with no pament and get on with oher work but I dont feel comfortable with that ethically. that is particularly as i live an die by referals. Ethcally speaking, how much is the customer responcible; in one case I have found out the next cheapest to my 700 was 1500! I have approuched these situation so far by asking for more time to do it when I dont have anything else to do.
cheers scott

Just do it, the old saying "experience is the best teacher but the tuitions mighty costly" You live and die by referals, enough said.

 

[Streyken]

Most of the time you just have to do it. Depending on the situation, if you haven't started and you've just given the quote, sometimes you can be honest with them and tell them you blew it, add a bit and they're still happy. Did one quote and by the time I reached the top of the driveway, realized it was a much longer drag than I accounted for. Went back to the house explained and they were happy to pay a few hundred more.

 

[Dadatwins]

Thanks again for all the advice

How do you approach asking for more money when you relieze you have seriously under bid. I am new to the game with one year on my own. I have underbid and reliezed it would be cheaper to walk with no pament and get on with oher work but I dont feel comfortable with that ethically. that is particularly as i live an die by referals. Ethcally speaking, how much is the customer responcible; in one case I have found out the next cheapest to my 700 was 1500! I have approuched these situation so far by asking for more time to do it when I dont have anything else to do.
cheers scott

1/2 price, ouch. Best thing to do is eat it this time and do the work. I would explain to the client that you underbid the job but you will stand by your bid as you 'live and die by referals' The customer is not responsibile to add anything to your bid. Learn from the experience. Be careful.

 

[Barry Stumps]

I did this several times my 1st year and never asked for more. I did tell them they got a real bargain and the job was lot harder than you thought. They will sometimes give you a tip. I have a saying "lose on the popcorn and make it on the peanuts" You will get referals from this happy customer in which you will make it back and they will give referals and so on. I have no ads, or phone book to pay for. Its all word of mouth. Suck it up and get it over with is what i say.

 

[FARMBOSS]

re

in my first year i dont even care about lowballing anyone anymore, sometimes it is nice to get in a certain sub and be able to get all the neighbors, but everytime i lowball to get one even if im slow i end up blowing a tire out, ot something of that nature, i just look at jobs, predict the worse case scenario and do 75 per man hour, i get a lot less confirmations than i used to, but im making more, working less, less labor, gas wear and tear etc., when I was told the advice to add 25% to every bid, it was the hardest advice to follow but it worked the best, but if reputation is important to you, do them anyways

 

[Mitchell]

under bidding

thanks for the thoughts, I think i wil go back and do some more work; i had left some debris from the 5 douglas firs as a compromise [his yard was not in good shape].
My concern was not the money so much as time, and in that case not only did I miss the mark on bidding [it was getting dark and i had to pee so i spat my bid out and left!]
Then I lost 3 hours waiting for the tenants and neighbours to make pitches to the landlord to save the trees when i showed up; I explained spirall pruning would work for safety as well as removal. I wish people would tell their neighbours... In the meantime the winds came up... so over night some one spiked the trees and they had been spiked regularly in the past as some spikes were grown over. I wrecked three chains before i said the stumps are going to be left at 6 feet...
Not to mention a gust carried one of the tops forty feet on a 80 foot drop and smashed a neighbours bonzie tree! I did not think that was possible, but i have changed to a split the difference for my under cuts to get the top pointing down before it snaps]
He was not happy, but we reached a comprimise where by I left a truck load or two of small non chipable fir branches pilled in a incounspicious corner.
all in all it was one of those jobs and i was in retrospect trying to make up for a bad job bid by moving to fast, after all it was not a freak gust that carried that top so far.
he has insinuated he may have me back to do more work.. fir branches over his services. the hydro support post is mostly ripped out of the roof from a big branch hit in a storm. I told him I would consider it if he gets the post fixed as I fear it would be very easy to take out service. Incidently how much of a hit can services take, I have never sweated a light brushing [say 100 pounds of force] am i wrong there.
thanks for the input

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

Why is this even a question? This is Business 101, folks. Contracts. Written. Adhered to. You get paid what you bid. If you underbid, you eat it. It's the price of making a mistake.


The only out for you is if there is a change in the job once you get there. From your description, sounds like that's part of this package. Neighbors or tenants delaying you? Not part of your bid, not your problem. Customer pays. Some low-life scum-sucking-fill in the blank-cretin spiked the tree? Not part of your bid, not your problem. Customer pays.

From a homeowners standpoint, I would FULLY understand having to pay you more if those things happened on a job you were doing for me. I'd expect to pay.

But if it's just because you made a mistake? And you ask me for more money? At that point, I consider you just a con artist or a hack and if you haven't started the job yet, you won't. I'll find someone else. If you HAVE, you'll finish it - ALL of it - at the agreed price or we'll see what a judge has to say about breach of contract.

But to protect yourself, those kind of exceptions should be spelled out in the bid form and whatever job paperwork you both sign. The work to be completed AND the conditions under which is is to be completed should be spelled out. If you don't do that as a matter of course, it's only a matter of time before someone yanks you into court and gets into your pocketbook.

 

[maxburton]

I agree wholeheartedly with BlueRidgeMark. When you submit a bid, you are saying "I will do the work for this price if it's ok with you." Once they say ok, the work must be done, and they must pay that price. We all screw up on pricing sometimes, so just learn from it and move on. Remember two things:


1. Do as good a job as you would on one that you're making a huge profit on. Your low price is no excuse for poor quality, unless you're ok with your reputation reflecting it.

2. Watch out that you don't let yourself earn a reputation for very low prices. It can happen easily. Early on, I bid very low, and still get calls from people expecting it even though I am now more reasonably priced.

 

[maxburton]

By the way, Mitchell, when it comes to dropping branches on wires, DON'T EVER DO IT! You never know what you can get a way with, and when things don't work out you will be VERY SORRY. Find a way to avoid it or walk away. It's not worth the risk.

 

[clearance]

Then I lost 3 hours waiting for the tenants and neighbours to make pitches to the landlord to save the trees when i showed up; I explained spirall pruning would work for safety as well as removal. I wish people would tell their neighbours... In the meantime the winds came up... so over night some one spiked the trees and they had been spiked regularly in the past as some spikes were grown over. fir branches over his services. the hydro support post is mostly ripped out of the roof from a big branch hit in a storm. I told him I would consider it if he gets the post fixed as I fear it would be very easy to take out service. Incidently how much of a hit can services take, I have never sweated a light brushing [say 100 pounds of force] am i wrong there.
thanks for the input

Mitch, if people want trees cut down, cut them down, all this recent news about trees crushing houses has got people scared, help them sleep better.
Mark, you can get lost calling names about people who spike, like Max says, the tree had been spiked many times and some spike marks were growing over. I have climbed thousands of Doug. fir trees beside powerlines, spurred them, sidelimbed them, some of them had already been spurred, no doubt they will be spurred agian. So much for your knowledge, what are your qualifications in regards to treework again? Service wires: I have bounced little tops and many big branches of them. If it looks fairly new, they can take a good hit, the one you speak of is ready to fail and the mast or tie in needs to be fixed. After that, have fun, within reason.

 

[clearance]

By the way, Mitchell, when it comes to dropping branches on wires, DON'T EVER DO IT! You never know what you can get a way with, and when things don't work out you will be VERY SORRY. Find a way to avoid it or walk away. It's not worth the risk.

Calm down buddy, we are talking about the service wire to a residence, not high voltage wires.

 

[Mitchell]

proffesionalism

thanks for the thoughts

Based on your posts and others here I am proubly guilty of trying to treat customers like I would my friends and neighbours and I need to adopt a more proffesional outlook with my business.
Max, your thoughts on wires are right I am not short of work so I do not need to take extra chances, my motivation was brought about from trying to be helpfull. HAving said that I would expect not to hit the wires but an expresion I like is :hope for the best but plan for the worst." I was wondering if anyone does know what would be reasonable to assume would not effect wires if something went wrong.
Clearence, just in case you misunderstood what i said earlier the trees were indeed spiked by me on the way up but they also had large 5 inch nails in them
thanks once again

 

[maxburton]

Mitchell, let me be a little clearer about why I said what I said about the wires. I have seen very heavy branches supported by house drops (wires from the street to a building) with no problem. I have also seen the tips of a branch graze a house drop and rip it right off the building. It's a question of the attaching hardware, and you can't know how weak it is until it breaks, and then it's too late. You really can't assume anything about their strength. Sometimes they're about to come off, and all they need is a nudge from an arborist, who ends up having to clean up the whole mess.

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

Mark, you can get lost calling names about people who spike, like Max says, the tree had been spiked many times and some spike marks were growing over. I have climbed thousands of Doug. fir trees beside powerlines, spurred them, sidelimbed them, some of them had already been spurred, no doubt they will be spurred agian. So much for your knowledge, what are your qualifications in regards to treework again?

Calm down, Clearance, I think we're talking about two different things. Using gaffs on a climb doesn't cause people to lose chains, does it? I think Mitchell is talking about low lifes who drive BIG NAILS into trees in order to prevent them from being cut down, or to at least injure chainsaw operators who try. Now, if I'm right about that, I'm pretty sure you agree with me on the name calling. In fact, I suspect you'd use much stronger language! :censored:

Right? Right.


BTW, on the climbing with spikes, I'm mostly on your side, so again, calm down.


Whoops! I see Mitchell did post a clarification while I was muddling around with this post. Didn't see it when I started typing.



Okay with the name calling, now clearance? I suspect almost everybody who posts on this board feels the same about those vermin, regardless of different attitudes about gaffs.

 

[rahtreelimbs]

In my experience, and I don't have near what other members here do, I just eat the cost and chalk it up to experience. I have been asked if I want more money but I turn it down.............just me I guess. Now I have had bonuses added and will take that..............but when asked I say "no".


All part of the learning curve...........we all go through it!!!

 

[maxburton]

Calm down buddy, we are talking about the service wire to a residence, not high voltage wires.

From Wikipedia: "A low-voltage (110 to 220 V), 50 or 60-Hz AC current traveling through the chest for a fraction of a second may induce ventricular fibrillation [heart attack] at currents as low as 60mA." A low ampere delivery of 110 volts contracts muscles to the point that anything in hand (like a wire or branch) cannot be released.

House drops can kill you. It has happened to arborists. I respect them accordingly.

 

[beowulf343]

Not to mention a gust carried one of the tops forty feet on a 80 foot drop and smashed a neighbours bonzie tree!
He was not happy, but we reached a comprimise where by I left a truck load or two of small non chipable fir branches pilled in a incounspicious corner.

We are in this business to make customers happy. You just flattened a tree belonging to a neighbor. Was he one of the ones who didn't want the trees taken down in the first place? You've just given him another excuse to dislike treemen. Thanks. And you left a couple loads of branches in his yard to make up for it? What is he going to do with those branches? Sounds like you talked him into taking them because they were "non-chippable" and thus more difficult to dispose of. Outfits i've worked for would fire you over something like this or at least make you pay to replace it. And especially a ca who should know better. Sure, accidents happen, but if you ruin something, replace it. I have lost a couple paychecks due to this, but at least the person whose property i damaged was happy. Makes me much more careful in a tree too.

 

[Rftreeman]

By the way, Mitchell, when it comes to dropping branches on wires, DON'T EVER DO IT! You never know what you can get a way with, and when things don't work out you will be VERY SORRY. Find a way to avoid it or walk away. It's not worth the risk.

yes, don't do it, you can be killed or if you break it down it will cost you too have it put back up and if you just break one or two of the three wires it can cause a power surge that can and will destroy and electronics that aren't protected inside the house not too mention it's not very professional looking if you are being watch, you'll end up on the "you tubes best" thread.

Having 18 years in the line clearance business I could sit here all day and tell stories about "brushing the wires" I was almost killed once by brushing the wires, you better learn too respect those wires or someday you might pay the ultimate price, get killed..........it only takes 1/10 of an amp too kill a person........

if you under bid then just learn from it and do a professional job in a timely manner.

 

[mtvigilante]

My advice as far as the house drops: call the power company and have it removed temorarily. Where I live, it's free. they would rather avoid the risk to the poles, transformers, etc.

One day I did a major crown reduction on a Siberian Elm that was 20' past the top of the 70 hi-ranger I run- covered 3 small back yards and right above a 7200 dist line. Of 5 house drops, I bumped one with a limb that weighed about 60 lbs, and seperated a splice in the service line. I called the power company, and they came to fix it. I talked with the lineman for a while, and he said it was a free service to have them taken down. I saw him one more time that day, when a hanger slipped and bumped it again...we had a pretty good laugh again when he came back, and we never had to pay anything.

moral-call before you trim if in doubt, or have the homeowner do it.. also call before you dig stumps-every time