Hey guys,I have still been working on my splitter. I have a few questions, I started with a 10" piece of iron pipe and welded one flat end on so far with a 2" female fitting about 1" off the bottom[the tank will be horizontal] this fitting will accept northerns large strainer,the question is about the return side is 3/4" fitting pretty standard? and can I just weld the fitting about 1" off the bottom on the opposite side? Or does there need to be a pipe inside? Last thing,would that breather cap northern sells [the one that you weld a 3/4" nipple in and screw in the breather be ok for a fill? I am sort of limited because of a round tank. Sorry for so many questions but I know you guys have the answers. Thanks again Chub
Wood spliter hyd. tank
- Thread starter chub
- Start date
Help Support Arborist Forum:
mga
wandering
1. if you use a strainer on your suction line, be sure to make it so that you can change it if need be. i'd opt for a filter on the return line instead.
2. your return line should drop into the tank and end about 1 inch off the bottom of the tank. you can drop a 3/4" pipe down from a welded fitting on the top of the tank. your return line would connect to that. be sure it's tight before final assembly. you don't want it falling off later on.
3. any breather cap would work. my tank has a 2 inch nipple welded to the top of the tank and i'm using a 2 inch pipe cap in which i drilled a hole in the side for venting.
my tank...return line and vent on top:
*
Last edited:
second vote for return filter.
I'd use both the suction strainer (never a suction filter), and only if you are sure it is way oversized for the pump. Suction strainer keeps out chips and slag, not anywhere fine enough for filtration, but needs to be large to avoid cavitation in cold weather. For sure a spin on 10 micron return filter. Size it large, as the return flow out of rod side of cylinder is about 30% more than pump flow due to the closed/rod side area difference.
Try to add a baffle inside to route the fluid. You don't want the return stream short circuiting straight across and quickly out the suction again. Want it to diffuse, slow down on velocity, then go evenly across for as much dwell time as possible.
Return must be below the surface, near the very bottom is best. don't want aeration or big problems.
One good method, bit more money but what I would do, is welding two 2 inch half couplings in, using the same part number suction strainer in each one (i.e quantity of two identical strainers), and using one as suction and one as return. The strainer is a great diffuser for return flow. Still use a return filter though, no matter what.
Have a 3/4 or one inch drain port.
Larger fill/breather is better, because of cleaning after you make the tank. Need to get all the slag out, and the mill scale loosened up with heat of welding even on the outside. Sanding out the inside before you weld anything is good.
Breather of 10 micron is best. Every cycle of rod in & out it is taking air in & out. The cheap brillo pad type of breather/fillers are not worth much.
The bayonet type of filler/breathers are not too bad. easy to mount, usually good filtration. I think northern has them. The have a 2 or 3 inch hole on tank top, and a twist off cap for fill. strainer inside to keep the junk out.
Sight gauge/thermometer is nice, but most people don't want to spend the money. Have to weld a UNF fine threa nut on the inside of two holes in the tank to mount them. and they screw in from the outside. Can't have a loose nut inside as can't get too it to install.
mga: you have posted that pic before. My opinons: nice setup. Large tank, good cooling, big 1.25 NPT return filter, filter above the oil level for changing. I assume the pipe goes down low.
kcj
I'd use both the suction strainer (never a suction filter), and only if you are sure it is way oversized for the pump. Suction strainer keeps out chips and slag, not anywhere fine enough for filtration, but needs to be large to avoid cavitation in cold weather. For sure a spin on 10 micron return filter. Size it large, as the return flow out of rod side of cylinder is about 30% more than pump flow due to the closed/rod side area difference.
Try to add a baffle inside to route the fluid. You don't want the return stream short circuiting straight across and quickly out the suction again. Want it to diffuse, slow down on velocity, then go evenly across for as much dwell time as possible.
Return must be below the surface, near the very bottom is best. don't want aeration or big problems.
One good method, bit more money but what I would do, is welding two 2 inch half couplings in, using the same part number suction strainer in each one (i.e quantity of two identical strainers), and using one as suction and one as return. The strainer is a great diffuser for return flow. Still use a return filter though, no matter what.
Have a 3/4 or one inch drain port.
Larger fill/breather is better, because of cleaning after you make the tank. Need to get all the slag out, and the mill scale loosened up with heat of welding even on the outside. Sanding out the inside before you weld anything is good.
Breather of 10 micron is best. Every cycle of rod in & out it is taking air in & out. The cheap brillo pad type of breather/fillers are not worth much.
The bayonet type of filler/breathers are not too bad. easy to mount, usually good filtration. I think northern has them. The have a 2 or 3 inch hole on tank top, and a twist off cap for fill. strainer inside to keep the junk out.
Sight gauge/thermometer is nice, but most people don't want to spend the money. Have to weld a UNF fine threa nut on the inside of two holes in the tank to mount them. and they screw in from the outside. Can't have a loose nut inside as can't get too it to install.
mga: you have posted that pic before. My opinons: nice setup. Large tank, good cooling, big 1.25 NPT return filter, filter above the oil level for changing. I assume the pipe goes down low.
kcj
Last edited:
mga
wandering
thanks!! my son made it at his shop...my design.
yep....the return line drops down to 1 inch off the bottom.
it's still a mess to change the filter because it's loaded with oil, so i loosen it up and put a large plastic can over it before i remove it.
Thanks for the ideas so far ;so it would be better to drop my return line in from the top and pipe it to near the bottom, instead of just having it go straight in the end about and inch off of the bottom on the flat end cap? That does sound like a good idea to use a strainer in both sides to defuse the flow. I do have a return filter. Is 3/4" a standard return fitting? the pump is a two stage 16gpm. Do any of you have any sources for breathers/fills the only ones I have found are at northern and the seem to only have two styles. BTW the tank holds about 14 gal. Thanks again Chub
half and 3/4 NPT are common for the normal 1 inch fine threaded post filter. about the size of a car oil filter. At 16 gpm pump, you would have over 20 gpm coming back on extend. I think that is too much, so I would go to 3/4 ID hoses and use the larger spin on filter. It's 1-1/2 UNF threaded center post, usually 1-1/4 NPT ports. I think 5.75 can OD about 8 inches long. Those two sizes are common in the US production, many elements available including at NAPA. Some of the box stores use metric versions, elements tend to be through the OEM of the filter maker, not so common.
Larger filter has longer life, better filtration, (not going across bypass as much), and less pressure drop. With a smaller filter, sometimes there is enough pressure drop across the filter that the return line back pressure affects the automatic kickout on the valve detent. In some cases with cold oil or with surges due to trapped air, the surges can blow the filter can if it is too small for the flow rating.
k
Larger filter has longer life, better filtration, (not going across bypass as much), and less pressure drop. With a smaller filter, sometimes there is enough pressure drop across the filter that the return line back pressure affects the automatic kickout on the valve detent. In some cases with cold oil or with surges due to trapped air, the surges can blow the filter can if it is too small for the flow rating.
k
Thanks Kevin,So I guess the better option is to return down thru the top and let the pipe about one inch off the bottom rather than returning it straight in the end? I already bought the return filter [screw on type from Northern] I hope it will work,I told them the application. I will try to post a pic so it will be easier to understand. I like your idea of the large suction strainer as a return port but was concerned it may act as an air stone and cause bubbles? Thanks again Chub
End or top, either way is fine, whichever is easier to build, just as long as you are under the fluid level, and not causing turbulence at the surface. I'd stay a couple inches off the bottom, too much velocity and turbulence if too close. Cut the pipe end at an angle to very slightly help in the diffusion. Not a big deal, but helps somewhat. Also tends to direct the flow towards the cut side.
The air doesn't come from the return in any way. Some air is dissolved in the oil but that stays put. Mostly air is entrained in the fluid and comes in through leaky suction piping, or shaft seals on pump, or turbulence at the surface of the tank fluid. So you want diffusion to slow down the velocity, move the oil slow and evenly through the tank, and allow time for entrained air to move upward towards the top.
Also, ideally, moving along the outside walls of tank helps to dissipate heat better than stagnant fluid at the walls.
Industrial tanks tend to be just big square boxes, because space is more available. Hence the 1x, or 2x or 3x pump flow rules of thumb form the old days. Tanks on mobile equipment can get pretty exotic because space and weight and shape are at a premium, and no way will a huge tank fit. Most hydrostatic drives have tanks less than half of the charge flow. (Or power steering pumps, reservoirs of a pint or so.) That takes more attention and complexity in design to get nice diffusion, holding time, deaeration, settling areas, cooling, and preventing vortexes over the suction port. Do some google searching and you will see some fairly exotic tank designs. ONe research tank, made in plexiglass for visibility, created flow in a spiraling motion inside (without baffles) that moves the fluid like it was being pulled inward to a black hole/death star. Never heard if anyone used the concepts in a production design. Complicated though.
k
The air doesn't come from the return in any way. Some air is dissolved in the oil but that stays put. Mostly air is entrained in the fluid and comes in through leaky suction piping, or shaft seals on pump, or turbulence at the surface of the tank fluid. So you want diffusion to slow down the velocity, move the oil slow and evenly through the tank, and allow time for entrained air to move upward towards the top.
Also, ideally, moving along the outside walls of tank helps to dissipate heat better than stagnant fluid at the walls.
Industrial tanks tend to be just big square boxes, because space is more available. Hence the 1x, or 2x or 3x pump flow rules of thumb form the old days. Tanks on mobile equipment can get pretty exotic because space and weight and shape are at a premium, and no way will a huge tank fit. Most hydrostatic drives have tanks less than half of the charge flow. (Or power steering pumps, reservoirs of a pint or so.) That takes more attention and complexity in design to get nice diffusion, holding time, deaeration, settling areas, cooling, and preventing vortexes over the suction port. Do some google searching and you will see some fairly exotic tank designs. ONe research tank, made in plexiglass for visibility, created flow in a spiraling motion inside (without baffles) that moves the fluid like it was being pulled inward to a black hole/death star. Never heard if anyone used the concepts in a production design. Complicated though.
k
Last edited:
Interesting info Kevin, Perhaps puting a 90 deg fiting inside the tank facing the curved portion of the tank would help with mixing the oil around. Also with the strainer/breather filler assembly, northern does not seem to know how to mount them. I went to tsc in hopes to see one in person with no luck. Hopefully, I can just weld a pipe or fitting in the top and slip it into that,I just dont want to order something just to return it. Chub
what breather/filler are you looking at?
k
k
BREATHER/FILLER
Didn't find the 1807 suffix, but both seem to be the standard bayonet style fill/breathers. Many companies make them. You cut a round hole in the tank, drill and tap (6) #6 or #8 holes (cleaning the tank thoroughly of course since the chips go inside the tank), silicone it all and screw it on. They tend to get moisture under the gasket into tank, or rain bouncing off tank lid saturating the breather material and draw moisture in. So plenty of silicone seal at the mount, and try and keep it covered or stored inside. Or build a rain hood over the engine and tank. Combo rain and vandalism cover is very nice. Just a big box that covers engine, fill port, tank, valve, etc. Keeps all sorts of mischief out of the tank.
4032 seems to be 40 micron breather, pretty standard. Plastic basket. 15 micron on basket is pure BS.
40101 is metal screen. No further info on 40101. Probably 40 micron breather also. Pretty standard on both. See them in person, or buy one of each at only $10 each. I’d probably lean to the metal screen just feels better. But no mounting dimensions on website. They are both typical products. There are also side mount versions when the top is not accessible.
Either one should be fine.
Didn't find the 1807 suffix, but both seem to be the standard bayonet style fill/breathers. Many companies make them. You cut a round hole in the tank, drill and tap (6) #6 or #8 holes (cleaning the tank thoroughly of course since the chips go inside the tank), silicone it all and screw it on. They tend to get moisture under the gasket into tank, or rain bouncing off tank lid saturating the breather material and draw moisture in. So plenty of silicone seal at the mount, and try and keep it covered or stored inside. Or build a rain hood over the engine and tank. Combo rain and vandalism cover is very nice. Just a big box that covers engine, fill port, tank, valve, etc. Keeps all sorts of mischief out of the tank.
4032 seems to be 40 micron breather, pretty standard. Plastic basket. 15 micron on basket is pure BS.
40101 is metal screen. No further info on 40101. Probably 40 micron breather also. Pretty standard on both. See them in person, or buy one of each at only $10 each. I’d probably lean to the metal screen just feels better. But no mounting dimensions on website. They are both typical products. There are also side mount versions when the top is not accessible.
Either one should be fine.
Thanks again Kevin, I ordered the parts today,Ihave a return filter from northern part 4020 ,it has 3/4 npt fittings on both sides, I was planning to run a 1" return pipe in the top of my tank to about 1-1/2 " off the bottom,being that the fittings on the return filter are 3/4 would it be better to just use 3/4 pipe for a return into the tank as well? I was going to bring the pipe out of the top use a 90 deg el ,small piece of pipe to the return filter, hyd hose from the filter to valve assembly. thanks again chub
mga
wandering
the lovejoy couplings come with a rubber spider that fits between them. the thickness of the spider would determine the minumum distance.
at least, that's how i did mine.
Thanks for the info on the love joy,Is there a reason you used 1" return line instead of 3/4" I am still trying to decide on that; all my fittings on the return filter are 3/4" so I not sure why i would run 1" just to reduce it? Thanks
mga
wandering
actually......no. my son made the tank as per my design and he took it upon himself to use a 1 inch fitting going in the tank, so......
i use a reducer at the filter, since the filter body is 3/4".
so, no need to run the 1" pipe. it was just a miscommunication. lol
Lloyd H
ArboristSite Operative
return volume
I believe the return stroke is when the return flow exceeds the pump output. The rod entering the cylinder displaces additional fluid. Not too important which way just bear in mind return flow can exceed pump output.
I believe the return stroke is when the return flow exceeds the pump output. The rod entering the cylinder displaces additional fluid. Not too important which way just bear in mind return flow can exceed pump output.
Excuse my ignorance but I have no idea what you are talking about. Here are the specs 13hp engine 14gal hyd tank ,16gpm 2stage pump; in the tank large strainer ,4/1/2x24 cylinder, return screw on type filter with 3/4 ports. I am going to drill a weld in the rest of the fittings this week so I just want to make sure I get it right. The hyd tank is about a 30"pice of 10" pipe and it will be lying horizontal, The strainer is in one of the solid ends about 1/1/2" of the bottom,the drain is 1"port centered in the bottom ,the fill is on the top [breather/strainer],and the last fitting I have to decide on is the return line which I was going to drop in straight down thru the top of the tank at the opposite side of the strainer and cut a 45 deg angle on the pipe facing the curved portion of the pipe about 1/1/2" from the bottom. I was going to hard pipe my return filter into that. Any suggestions? Thanks Chub
mga
wandering
the return line, on the left, drops to about 1 inch off the bottom of the tank.
the line in the center is the baffle. it should be about 3/4 of the height of the tank. the bottom corners should be cut open.
the fill cap/vent is on top.
and the suction fitting is on the right and should be at least 1 inch off the bottom of the tank.
it sounds like you're basically following the same idea, just using a round tank. if i understand you right, it appears you're on the right track.
Last edited:
Similar threads
