Getting off the grid?

[Circle B MN]

There is a vast difference between being prepared versus simply hoarding a large stock of provisions.

So where is the harm in hoarding a bunch of provisions...? What if the SHTF tomorrow...? Earthquake, hurricane, global unrest,..who knows. I don't live in a bunker, and I know of people that perhaps go to a bit of an extreme in being prepared, but I would rather have them as friends than somebody that is going to come over and mooch off my stuff after the next tornado destroys the town....

 

[Junkfxr]

Back to the original topic.... off grid just means electrical grid...as was mentioned earlier. Just as was mentioned earlier, we are mostly off grid and it's not that expensive, really. The only things still connected to the grid in our house is the A/C, electric dryer and electric range that the wife will NOT give up. Everything else in the house, even the 220 volt well pump, blow dryers and microwave, TV's, computers, printers, sat. reciever, fridge, freezer, etc. etc. etc. are all ran from inverters / battery bank and solar panels with a single cylinder diesel generator that'll run off of anything combustable for back up when the sun doesn't shine for more than 3 days at a time. I started our system in 1999 and it's still not done. I call it my "Johnny Cash" system (one piece at a time). We bought stuff as we could afford it and installed it. In fact, we didn't even start with solar panels. We started with a battery bank, an old worn out 5 hp Briggs driving a GM alternator to charge the batteries, and two inverters. We have about $15,000 tied up in what we have now and it just paid for itself last year. The best part is that we rarely know when the power is off on the grid. All of our freinds and neighbors poked fun at me when I started doing all of this but all of those same people started coming around asking questions about 2-3 years ago when electrical rates around here started skyrocketing. I didn't do all of this just to try to save money, it was more about independence... not having to be at the mercy of the power company. At the time, our power company didn't do a very good job of maintaining lines and right of ways and having no power was more normal than not. I also started all of this before the days of the internet as we know it today, it does take some research to educate yourself BEFORE you jump into trying to go to alternative energy, but the research is much easier today. Most of the high dollar figures that I've seen in some of the earlier posts sound like "Turn key packages", which is nice but not affordable to the average person. We done it "Johnny Cash" style, are very happy and comfortable and didn't break the bank doing it. As far as being completely "off grid", we do have a wood cookstove and a solar clothes dryer (clothes line) that I use all of the time, and I guess that I could do without the A/C if I absolutely had to but it sure makes sleeping easier.

 

[Guido Salvage]

So where is the harm in hoarding a bunch of provisions...

No harm at all, but the provisions in and of themselves are no guarantee of a higher survival rate than someone with no provisions but a high level of resourcefulness. People get lulled into thinking that they only need a bunch of stuff to survive when sometimes it actually takes much than that.

 

[zogger]

Good for you

Back to the original topic.... off grid just means electrical grid...as was mentioned earlier. Just as was mentioned earlier, we are mostly off grid and it's not that expensive, really. The only things still connected to the grid in our house is the A/C, electric dryer and electric range that the wife will NOT give up. Everything else in the house, even the 220 volt well pump, blow dryers and microwave, TV's, computers, printers, sat. reciever, fridge, freezer, etc. etc. etc. are all ran from inverters / battery bank and solar panels with a single cylinder diesel generator that'll run off of anything combustable for back up when the sun doesn't shine for more than 3 days at a time. I started our system in 1999 and it's still not done. I call it my "Johnny Cash" system (one piece at a time). We bought stuff as we could afford it and installed it. In fact, we didn't even start with solar panels. We started with a battery bank, an old worn out 5 hp Briggs driving a GM alternator to charge the batteries, and two inverters. We have about $15,000 tied up in what we have now and it just paid for itself last year. The best part is that we rarely know when the power is off on the grid. All of our freinds and neighbors poked fun at me when I started doing all of this but all of those same people started coming around asking questions about 2-3 years ago when electrical rates around here started skyrocketing. I didn't do all of this just to try to save money, it was more about independence... not having to be at the mercy of the power company. At the time, our power company didn't do a very good job of maintaining lines and right of ways and having no power was more normal than not. I also started all of this before the days of the internet as we know it today, it does take some research to educate yourself BEFORE you jump into trying to go to alternative energy, but the research is much easier today. Most of the high dollar figures that I've seen in some of the earlier posts sound like "Turn key packages", which is nice but not affordable to the average person. We done it "Johnny Cash" style, are very happy and comfortable and didn't break the bank doing it. As far as being completely "off grid", we do have a wood cookstove and a solar clothes dryer (clothes line) that I use all of the time, and I guess that I could do without the A/C if I absolutely had to but it sure makes sleeping easier.

You got it! That's what I was saying, there is no law you have to do ALL electric company power or ALL your own home made solar. Anyone can start with just the battery bank and charger/inverter, grid supplied, and work up from there to adding solar PV and wind power and a genny, etc.

Just chip away at it, drop demand, add production, eventually the two lines cross and you are independent.

 

[zogger]

there are three names for people without adequate supplies

No harm at all, but the provisions in and of themselves are no guarantee of a higher survival rate than someone with no provisions but a high level of resourcefulness. People get lulled into thinking that they only need a bunch of stuff to survive when sometimes it actually takes much than that.

They are called victims, refugees, or predators. That's it.

In an emergency situation, with no more supplies coming in, people without their own extensive supplies will fall into one of those three named categories, and the first two will turn into predators within a short time frame once the freebie handouts stop coming.

The veneer of civilization is *quite thin* and desperate people with no hope...well, history is slap fulla examples what happens next.

I know I would have no truck for folks who "invested" in 40 grand cars, big screen TVs, vacations, wall street "stock" etc and failed to put up at least a year's worth of simple basic food. No handouts here. The economy is still good enough now to get prepared unless one is just incredibly retarded or just plain lazy. all it takes is the time spent..say//watching one pro football game on TV, tyo instead do some research and see what is coming ahead in the not too far away future.

Anyone can get a good food stash up, a good emergency med kit, backup heat and cooking source, etc. If I can do it making eight grand a year, notice I said eight not eighty, anyone in the US can do it. No excuse to go without in this nation outside of laziness and not caring. Unless someone is totally criplled up and can barely move, tough noogies, they decided that going out to eat and the movies and paying for sat TV or riding around in some gashog vehicle or investing in toys is more important, then that's their decision.

My priority is necessities come FIRST before anything else. I want water/food/shelter/security forever, and backups for the primary, and that stuff comes first, and ya know, I achieved it.

People make their own choices, and having a well stocked pantry was the norm for ten thousand years, all the way back to caveman days, just because the last generation decided it was uncool...and who remain faked out that credit is the same as produced wealth and everything in the USA is just peachyu keen right now....I don't care, let them eat their iPods or collection of knick knacks or their wall street stocks once it gets worse.

And it is NOT if, it is only when now for the "worse" part, and it will get much worse, worse than the breakup of the soviet union, because those people were way ahead of maintaining with much less crap than joe sixpack here today, and their economy was already half black and gray market anyway, so that just continued.

Back in the great depression,,, 40% still lived rural on farms, they had the basics covered, now it is less than 2%. And I am in that 2% because I know that is the easiest and best way to future proof my reality and to insure water/food/shelter/security.

Any systemic further economic decline will make the social scene just hella worse than back then because of that data point on the demographics shift.

We are this dang close to the scam FRN losing steam as the main planetary reserve currency, (a headline today is it will be replaced in the continent of Africa within a few years now..the rest of the planet will follow) once it is replaced and other forms of currency overtake it, or huge nation to nation bartering becomes more normal (china is doing that a lot today, especially for long term energy and strategic materials access), that's it, the party is over for the "good old days" in the US. Our real peak occurred in the mid 70s anyway, everything since then has been credit expansion and debt accumulation and inflation.

I feel sorry for the younger folks today in a way, but in a way I envy them, they will have a chance to rebuild the right way once all the crap is sorted out and the traitors in high places are..well..history again shows us what happens to fatcats who get too greedy and stupid. They fall fast, after first completely ruining their nations/empires. Usually it is rather ugly for a spell...man, I would hate to be a blacksuit wearing doofus when that time frame gets here.

BTW, off topic, if ya want to be a grammar nazi, you might want to fix this sentence -> "People get lulled into thinking that they only need a bunch of stuff to survive when sometimes it actually takes much than that."

I make technical grammatical mistakes, but they are done on purpose as part of my writing style....so I try my best to be tolerant of the...of the...can't go there. Apostrophes. Oh man, the use of those around these parts....

 

[Dalmatian90]

Why should all the rest of us have to pay higher premiums because twice every 10 years or so there houses get blown down or float away. [/quote]

Homeowner's Insurance doesn't pay for flood damages, so you're not paying higher premiums due to floods and storm surges.

Wind damage can occur anywhere, and that is covered. Short of a strong tornado, it's less catastrophic the flooding.

You will find folks who didn't have flood insurance who try and claim the hurricane winds blew their house down before the storm surge washed it away, usually without much success.

There is a "grandfathered structures subsidy" built into the flood insurance program for buildings built prior to 1970. New construction is supposed to be charged the full actuarially determined insurance cost, and that pool of money is being paid into by everyone who lives in flood zones whether coastal or river bottoms.

 

[Encore]

I actually live out by the amish. Us and about 5 of our neighbors are the only people with utility company power at our homes. most of them have a 5500-6500 running watt generator that kicks on once or twice a day to charge batteries.

I've spent a good bit of time looking into solar panels, how to set up the batteries and whatnot and the cost just doesn't match up. We have a generator (mostly because when we lose power we are the last ones to get it back on) and to be honest we could get by for a LONG time if we were skimpy with the power and set up some batteries.

solar panels are expensive and do require maintance and the photo cells don't last forever. Not to mention that if you have them set up so that they power your entire house, it's crazy expensive.

Just my personal opinion though. I love being prepared and all for anything, but solar is just not for me. Honestly if I were going to spend the money to put in solar to power my house I'd go for a wind turbine generator.

 

[smokinj]

Your self title as A.S.badger is quite true......

Where is the fault in being prepared. I grew up in Richmond, and all my family is there. After the past hurricane I spoke with them and found that while most had generators, they lacked gas to fuel them. They had water in the well, but no electricity to pump it. There was food but no means to cook it. All up and down the east coast, the story is the same. Where is the harm in being prepared..? Having more than a weeks worth of grocery..? A few gallons of water set aside. Gas in a can. WalMart will not save you......You call them survivalists, extremists, radicals.....I call them survivors......prepared.

Yep Yep! I could easly make it a year with out a 44 rifle. Put that in the mix and I am set. Oh and I have the pioneer wife....I mean Indian wife!

 

[Junkfxr]

I actually live out by the amish. Us and about 5 of our neighbors are the only people with utility company power at our homes. most of them have a 5500-6500 running watt generator that kicks on once or twice a day to charge batteries.

I've spent a good bit of time looking into solar panels, how to set up the batteries and whatnot and the cost just doesn't match up. We have a generator (mostly because when we lose power we are the last ones to get it back on) and to be honest we could get by for a LONG time if we were skimpy with the power and set up some batteries.

solar panels are expensive and do require maintance and the photo cells don't last forever. Not to mention that if you have them set up so that they power your entire house, it's crazy expensive.

Just my personal opinion though. I love being prepared and all for anything, but solar is just not for me. Honestly if I were going to spend the money to put in solar to power my house I'd go for a wind turbine generator.

Nope, solar panels don't require any maintenance, just the batteries. I used to change the angle of our panels 4 times a year to get the maximum charge out of them but I got lazy and finally found a good all year angle and leave them at that. Occasionally, I'll go out and hose the dirt off of them and sweep the snow off of them in the winter, but that's the only time I touch them. We have a 1.8 kw solar array, that's 1800 watts, and it runs our house, everything except the electric dryer, electric range, and A/C. When we were buying panels, I'd save up enough money to buy 4 at a time. Usually because that's where the price break was and the shipping was about the same on 4 as it was for one. Needless to say, we have a mismatched array. Doesn't matter, they all charge the battery. Solar cells don't last forever but most all of them come with a 20 year output warranty now. Even when the output starts degrading, they will still charge for many, many years, probably long after most of us are dead and gone. Wind turbines are nice, I have one, but unless you live where you have constant POWER MAKING wind, they're only good for a supplement. Wind turbines also need to be above the tallest tree or structure to do any amount of good and most local ordenances (sp) will prohibit that, not to mention the cost and maintenance of a tower that size. Oh, and homeowners insurance just loves really tall towers with spinning things on the top. Have a blade fly off in a hurricane and hit a neighbors house or barn, let alone a neighbors cow or child, and see how popular you become.

 

[zogger]

cost and longevity

I actually live out by the amish. Us and about 5 of our neighbors are the only people with utility company power at our homes. most of them have a 5500-6500 running watt generator that kicks on once or twice a day to charge batteries.

I've spent a good bit of time looking into solar panels, how to set up the batteries and whatnot and the cost just doesn't match up. We have a generator (mostly because when we lose power we are the last ones to get it back on) and to be honest we could get by for a LONG time if we were skimpy with the power and set up some batteries.

solar panels are expensive and do require maintance and the photo cells don't last forever. Not to mention that if you have them set up so that they power your entire house, it's crazy expensive.

Just my personal opinion though. I love being prepared and all for anything, but solar is just not for me. Honestly if I were going to spend the money to put in solar to power my house I'd go for a wind turbine generator.

You can find panels now down to around a buck a watt and some change. That ain't too bad. And as for longevity, they ususally come with a 20 or 30 year warranty for up to 80% of rated max power output.

My system is still fine and my cheapo batts, six volt golfcart batts, trojan 105s, that everyone and their uncle solar "expert" on the intertubes told me would only last three years lasted thirteen years! Those batts were bought in 98 and just this year finally got to not working all that good. Thousands of charge/recharge cycles. I did put what is called a desulphator device on them in...gotta think, 2002 maybe, that helped a lot.

My personal system I have now is is small, but I spent close to five years maintaining a very large solar array, and maintenance was almost a non issue. Less maintenance than owning and riding a bicycle, put it that way. There's not much to it, it is by far and away the most user friendly way to go about this compared to any other offgrid system, you keep the battery banks topped off with distilled water. And that's it for the most part. Once installed...ain't nothing to it. Once in a while take a long soft broom and gently nudge any snow or ice off the panels, or if dusty in the summer just aim the hose at it and rinse them off. Four times a year you adjust the angle of the panels (or once a month if you really want to, but usually not necessary) unless you have a full tracker. That took way less than an hour on a triple mount multiple panel array with 36 panels. Just not that hard, undo some bolts, adjust the angle with a pole, tighten back up.

If they get coated with ice and snow and it sticks, they are black and absorb heat readily and you'll find the snow or ice slides off easy after around lunchtime, even on very cold winter days, at least they did here back up in the mountains. Broom off what you can in the morning, what is left over will melt off and slide off, and it does it easy because the array angle is adjusted so acute in the winter, it is a steep slope,almost vertical depending on your latitude.

The way to do alternative energy on a budget is just keep chipping away at it, while you try to reduce demand gradually by switching out to more efficient devices, etc. I started out with one panel, and one extra storage battery and that's it, lived for almost a year with that as my electricity, when my GF and I were first living in my smaller camper. Had onboard propane storage, that ran the fridge, furnace and stove, and that one little panel ran all the electricity needs for us, lights, furnace blower, I had some 12 volt stuff I plugged in, etc.

And when I can afford it, I add to that original stuff. Not finished yet, but it is larger than that now and added a decent charge controller and the desulphator and a small inverter and some more panels.


And yes it is quite common to have a hybrid system, remain grid tied when you start, go with the battery bank with the charger/inverter first, then start adding solar and wind. It is common for folks to have both solar and wind, because winds are better in the winter usually and solar picks back up in the summer with longer daylight hours. Stick a generator someplace in the mix, and I would recommend either propane powered or diesel, not a small liquid fueled gasser. Propane lasts the longest without any issue. It will last decades. And the smooth move is just do a sub panel and start switching over real critical circuits in your home first, the circuits that you REALLY want to be working during an extended outage. There's no need to go "whole house" at great expense right off the bat.

I am more familiar with generators that absolutely have to be reliable and work for extended runtimes, commercial farm generators, and that's all you see, propane or diesel. We have three quite large diesel ones here on this farm (we are by far the largest poultry farm around here), but the last farm I worked on had a propane generator that used a nissan industrial engine. Either will work fine. The small gassers don't last long, and fuel storage is an issue, even with fuel stabilizer. They are just cheap to start with and OK for occasional light use.

I go window shopping once in awhile and near as I can see lately, a good enough starter system will run around at three grand, enough to get ya going and provide a useful amount of day to day or backup power. that would be a small battery bank, charger/controller/inverter, a couple or three decent panels, or a generator or a small wind turbne generator (those DO require maintenance and don't last near as long as solar panels). You will get higher wattage output with less initital expense though, and you really need to do what is called a site survey to determine what would best for you.. You can do all the work yourself on installation except for the very last tie in to your electrical panel, that takes a licensed electrical contractor, his minimum rate, like one hour, and get inspected by the local electrical inspector. If it isn't grid tied, none of that stuff is needed. (check local regs, I am very generally speaking now, and I have no idea on your HO insurance either, but it isn't much different from all the folks running a genny after a storm, usually no issue as long as not grid tied.)

 

[Encore]

Very informative posts! I would always rather hear from guys like yourselves who have experience rather than just reading other stuff.

So you found that even with the total cost involved you're still saving money in comparison to using utility electric?

I'm probably a bit too focused on the bottom line, but that's where I get stuck sometimes. The amount of time it took before I'd be saving money seemed a bit much for me. But I can see the point about the convience.

We spend less than a grand a year on electric. So for me I looked at investing 3-4K on setups that still wouldn't power my entire house (I like central AC in the summer) and the cost just didn't make sense to me?

More than willing to learn though.

 

[046]

getting off the grid is a dream of mine, but more in the self suffusion sense rather then if SHTF. although the two go hand in hand.

heating with wood currently is one of the few things we can pull off easily. having little to no natural gas bill is heavenly. wood is a renewable resource that we actually have a say in how it's consumed.

I'm running a 12 Cummins truck that's capable of running straight veggie oil and waste motor oils.
that's not complete self suffusion for transpiration, but close.

electric grid to me is one of the hardest to get rid off. solar cells are not cheap when one is talking about generating enough wattage to sustain a normal house. diesel generators are only viable until fuel runs out.

have got several months of rations tucked away. along with emergency water supplies and filtration systems. a generous supply of ammo on hand. with enough reloading supplies to handle the worst case scenario.

 

[zogger]

Ask yourself this..when does the grid go down?

Very informative posts! I would always rather hear from guys like yourselves who have experience rather than just reading other stuff.

So you found that even with the total cost involved you're still saving money in comparison to using utility electric?

I'm probably a bit too focused on the bottom line, but that's where I get stuck sometimes. The amount of time it took before I'd be saving money seemed a bit much for me. But I can see the point about the convience.

We spend less than a grand a year on electric. So for me I looked at investing 3-4K on setups that still wouldn't power my entire house (I like central AC in the summer) and the cost just didn't make sense to me?

More than willing to learn though.

whenever I have lived anyplace and the grid goes down..it has always been THE most inopportune time. either the middle of a cold ice storm or blizzard, or a heat wave, or a terrible rain and windstorm..al the times you REALLY want the dang electricity to be working.

I have YET to see the grid go down when it was a perfect 70 degrees, nice breeze, low humidity day out. Nope, always happens at the dang worst times.

I always want a certain minimum amount of electricity, no matter what. My little array can do that, Whole house, not even close, enough for me to get by on, yep. Done and paid off years ago, as far as I am concerned a perfect return on investment. Tangible insurance. Same as having a working garden, pantry shelves full of canned up stuff, and a freezer full of goodies.

"Peace of mind" practical insurance....ask your self what that is worth. You said you need AC, but if the grid goes down, you not only don't have AC, you can't even run some fans, which are enough to get ya by.

Heck, we live in Georgia and exist without AC, just fans. And a shade tree.

More AC, just an observation, just something to chew on. The farm here has four onsite farm families who work and live here. We are the only ones without central heat and air, we have just the shade tree and fans and a wood heater (plus the well and not city water).

My boss is just constantly complaining about how he can't keep his other guys out working in the poultry houses and did not understand why. I told him...they get addicted to the AC in their houses, crank it down cold, and simply can't handle the heat as well as I can now when they go back outside or into the broiler houses. And he is the same way, with an AC office and AC in his truck and house, he just don't last that long outside working like he used to when younger (to be fair he is in his 80s now and can still out grunt most younger guys....)

I just learned to float around and adjust my workload to what it is outside, mornings and evenings I do the harder work, mid day I find some shade to work in and do repairs or lighter work. And I take breaks when I need them, drink a lot of water or juice just constantly, and back off when I am doing something and it gets to the point that I know one more little push will make me start to feel whoozy, you know what I mean. Keep it this side of a harmful push..and you can get used to that good enough.

 

[RacerX]

We spend less than a grand a year on electric. So for me I looked at investing 3-4K on setups that still wouldn't power my entire house (I like central AC in the summer) and the cost just didn't make sense to me?

I agree, unless you have very poor reliability of your electrical service, it doesn't make sense given your low annual electrical cost. A $3-4,000 investment won't get you much especially when you've mentioned central A/C.

 

[danrclem]

Grid electricity is cheaper right now than setting up a solar system but how much will it cost down the road when the libs push cheap coal out of the picture. There may come a time when setting up solar may have a good return on the investment.

I don't think that I'd ever go completely off of the grid unless it wasn't available or it was too expensive to use. A back-up system for essentials is the route I'd like to take. A window fan in July is better than nothing at all.

 

[Dalmatian90]

Solar can't stand on it's own where the libs already pushed cheap coal out of the picture (we import it from Indonesia for the plants in our state and pay something like 18 cents kWh for electricity -- the highest of any state that's not a chain of islands in the middle of the Pacific Ocean).

 

[Coldfront]

If SHTF having a years worth of food I guess depends on where you live. I could go out my back door at any time of the year with a gun or fishing pole and bring home food any day, and water is about 200 yards away. I would have to boil it on the wood stove. Electricity is a very nice convenience but really not a necessity if you are in a life or death situation. I might as well start working on a battery back up solar system when I have the extra cash. Here is another question if you were the only one in the area with electricity how long do think before others want what you have? If they are starving and you are sitting there with food water and electricity you better build a fortress.

 

[zogger]

That's all true

If SHTF having a years worth of food I guess depends on where you live. I could go out my back door at any time of the year with a gun or fishing pole and bring home food any day, and water is about 200 yards away. I would have to boil it on the wood stove. Electricity is a very nice convenience but really not a necessity if you are in a life or death situation. I might as well start working on a battery back up solar system when I have the extra cash. Here is another question if you were the only one in the area with electricity how long do think before others want what you have? If they are starving and you are sitting there with food water and electricity you better build a fortress.

What you said is true, and it is good you habve water right on site.

Security in a survival situation is a real crapshoot. that's why it is good to have either good neighbors or friends and family to hunker down with.

Hunting in a prolonged SHTF situation is another story. Unless you live REALLY freeking needs a floatplane to get there remote, don't count on stuff like deer lasting very long.

I talked to all my next generation older relatives, who all went through the great depression. whitetails pretty near disappeared the first year. I ain't kidding, go back and do some research on what happened to the deer herds and whatnot back then. And we have lots more people now who's only "survival gear" is a gun, and no stored up anything, and they will be doing the same thing you are thinking of.

Me, I have traps and know how to use them, and know how to deal with eating small off the wall game, all the stuff all the two legged predators will be avoiding until they run out of victims and deer.

Just depends on how bad it gets. If it gets real bad....oh well, better to be prepped plus have other sorts of survival skills. You can hide a lot of your food, use black outs over your windows to hide a light, etc.

I know I don't absolutely have to rely on just one way of doing things.

Back to the deer, I only know the situation in two states, but in Michigan (lower peninsula) and in Georgia, both states dropped down to only a few hundred wild deer left estimated during the height of the bad times of the depression. My dad and uncles told me about that, and they lived way the heck out in the boonies in Michigan, and I read up on Georgia seeing as how I live here now. As soon as the regular civilized food chain got disrupted, and everyone and their cuzzin zeke went out to "hunt for all their food", well, the deer all got shot off fast. Historical fact. And that was *with* pret near half the population still living on farms! And much less people!

You go look at like some places like in Africa today where the people are real poor, the "bushmeat" hunters kill anything, from tiny lizards on up, to sell. big problem there all the time trying to keep big game from going extinct from all the folks foraging and hunting for food. They eat rats, bugs, whatever. That would be a good indicator of what would happen here with a completely collapsed economy, think lawlessness/what government left corrupt as all get out/gangs of ultra nasty predators including "officials" in uniforms of various kinds, etc.

Yep, security would be a hassle. Mexico today perhaps, along those lines.

I can't tell you how bad it might get, my only frame of reference is now experiencing two different major riots up close and personal. Civilization one minute, the next minute..anarchy chaos ultra violence lootings beatings murders. Same humans. Just a minute or two difference. You just don't ever forget experiences like that, or assume that everyone will remain real nice and peaceful when they are desperate for anything.

Civilization only exists as long as most people are eating well and have good shelter and water, etc. Eliminate that, on a large scale and for extended time frames..that's it, civilization collapses rapidly, and "uncivilization" takes over. Happened all down through history. The US is particularly vulnerable because we are down to like one dude out of maybe five adults tops really working a wealth producing job and then everyone else..people existing on checks they get in the mail, etc or government workers or wall street predators or long term chronic unemployed.

Won't take much to collapse an economy like that. Really not much. A robust economy needs most of the adults in wealth producing jobs, not just receiving wealth or having a wealth re-arranging job or wealth governing job or wealth entertaining job, etc.

A large scale "service" economy is such a charade...they are trying to maintain the US can exist like that forever....I mean it is laughable it is so obviously lame. The ONLY reason it hasn't collapsed utterly is because the FRN was the planet reserve currency for so long that people all over in other nations are sitting on buckets of dollars and don't want to get stuck with them being worthless. Right now the smart money is sliding away from the FRNs and trading it off for more useful stuff..but eventually the great rout will happen, inevitable now. Way too far gone into "debt" and credit expansion and putting off really paying for things to sometime in the future. You simply can't printing press and IOU your way to wealth, eventually everyone else gets hip to your cons and they stop trusting you or taking your markers.

The US is just about exactly right at that point now. On the international scene, they are trying to pay off foreigner's IOUs being presented for payment with just rebadged and renamed other forms of IOUs. Just ain't gonna work for too long now, all those folks just ain't that stupid to keep doing that forever..

 

[slowp]

My friends used to live off the grid. They had solar, which wasn't much good from October to May, and hydro, which sometimes flooded out or froze up in the winter. The hydro also dried up in August.

They built their house to be passive solar. They used a generator to pump water out of their well and up the hill to a tank, where it then fed the house by gravity.

They heated water with a system running through the woodstove. They had propane for cooking, as a backup heat so they could leave home during the winter, and for the fridge.

There was lots of yelling about having too many lights on. Their house seemed dark because the lights just didn't light much.

After a big flood washed out powerlines, the PUD (Public Utility District--a GOOD socialist business--we ratepayers actually own a dam) moved the powerlines so they were closer to my friends' house. They sold some timber, and had power run in. They were amazed at how bright their house was and wonder about how they managed to live in the dark so long. She had a dishwasher installed first thing, which was a godsend because they have lots of company.

We have very dark winters. Many people can't stand the gloom. That is why coffee is such a popular item here. Light is important for our sanity each winter. The PNW style house has lots of big windows for a reason. I have a set of "happy" lights. Our winters are mild and rainy, with some snow. Winter lasts from October through part of July.

My friends still heat water with their woodstove system. They turned the battery storage area into a pantry, with a full size fridge and extra sink.

I do not think solar has improved enough for year round use in our climate and latitude. Maybe someday. Meanwhile, our power rates are pretty reasonable, our power lines are well maintained, and we only have outages during storms or floods, which is usually in November or December. Most of the residents of this area have woodstoves, or know someone who does, so we keep warm. Since our power outages occur during the monsoon, we can collect rainwater or treat creek water, since most of us are also on our own wells.

I guess, if I had the urge to install some kind of alternative power, the well would be what I would want most to do. I can live without power for a while, but I do like indoor plumbing.

 

[TreeClimber57]

I agree with the theme of the first post however I do think "Off the grid" came from folks setting up solar arays or other methods of producing energy.

It did so.

However they did not invent it; grid is a term that utility companies have used for decades (I worked for utility company from 1974 to 1992 and it was the "grid" long before then). (I think the railway used the term before that)

It is essentially the interconnected network of generation sources, transmission lines and transformers that get power from source to consumer. However, beyond that it also is what or where the various utilities interconnect their generation systems together.

As for stability - no it is not perfect.

When the grid fails, it is a long process to bring it back online as all the various generation sources within one utility are syncronized to a central source. Once they are up and running in stable manner then they are interconnected to adjoining utility companies. In theory total grid collapse is never supposed to occur, as there are many safeguards in place to automatically disconnect and implement a self preservation plan if bad things begin to occur in one area. Unfortunately this is only theory; as well it is possible to test in an isolated case it is difficult to test on a large scale. (although it did fail in 2003 when a power surge from New York of 3500 MW impacted the grid causing systems to automatically go offline. )

As for being off the grid; I have thought about it for years. Would be a combination of wind and solar if I ever did it.