Ich tried square chisel

[redprospector]

Looks real nice AND fast Andy;

If the chain self feeds with a low angle of attack like yours will, you dont have to waste horsepower between bar and chain to force it into the wood. It will also choose to cut itself a narrower kerf than the factory angles will. Your angles are probably approaching as shallow ( tender ) as you can go before you start to loose the edge on knots etc. I will see if I can hunt up a pic of a chain I did with extreme angles where the side cutting edge collapsed. Factory angles of the cutting edges are closer to 45 and I bet yours are nearer to 30 deg. Enough to make at least 10% faster than factory at least.

You hit the nail on the head Frank.
Much more shallow, and you loose the edge pretty quick. I guess that's just the way I am, right up to the edge and then back up 1/2 a step.

Andy

 

[1953greg]

square confusion

am making my first attempt at square filing and using the 6 sided perfered file in the granberg guide (no way i can square file free hand w/ the 6 sided) and finding it very difficult to secure the file in the guide. but finally did. kinda

questions are
1. can a small fine rectangle file be used?? it can be purchased locally.
that file would have a 90* corner. is that fesable? because the 6 sided has 60* corners.

2. is the goofy file easier to use freehand than the 6 sided? that file really confuses me because it has the rounded edge. seems to defeat the "square" advantage.

 

[huskydave]

Hey Greg buy a loop and try it out. My take on it hmm if your cutting in the bush pounding your equipment don't even bother. It does not hold an edge unless you are in prestine conditions. It is not as hard to file as some people think but overall I would say unless you cut in clean wood the benifits outweigh the risks.

 

[1953greg]

i bought a loop of oregon square and set the guide up to match the original angles. looks pretty radical as compared to the round way. prolly took 2 hours and 4 beers to get it set up. lots of tweeking as the file holder is not conducive to 6 sided files. hence the questions.

is the goofy file easier to freehand than the 6 sided??

havent put it to the wood yet.

thanks

 

[huskydave]

To tell you the truth the fileguides and benchmounts will teach you nothing. Get an experienced guy to show you how to freehand file a chain. I sharpened 100 or more chains this year after a big "microburst" and I had no electricity and because I was comfortable it was not a big deal another thing Some guys hate sawcases. I was in a major accident this year my vehicle was totaled. If my saw was not in a case it would be broken into 1000 pieces easy. The Husqvarna powerbox case split apart and saved my saw. I amazingly snapped it back together and my 372xp runs awesome and suffered no damage. I had a portable air compressor next to it and it is bent to hell and won't work it is finished. The day of that freak microburst I was the only guy for 20 miles with a saw at hand. I also had my 056mag2 and we ended up helping the ambulance and fire resue teams get to the worst areas and I was glad As backed me up. I remember all the people on here stood strong behind me and thats what its all about we poke fun and knock each other but I can say I would be proud to call any As member my friend.

 

[spacemule]

Its got a close setting, but still didn't turn out well. I ran the batteries dead trying to get a good shot.

I don't know a lot about cameras, but here's something I've figured out on mine. Point the camera at something that fills the screen and is the distance you want to shoot--say the wall. Then, hold the shutter button down to the first stop--that will lock the focus in. Now, with the button held, move the camera to what you're wanting to shoot--the same distance as you held the camera from the wall. It should now be in focus and you can finish pushing the button down.

The problem is your chain is a small part of the shot and the autofocus is trying to focus on other things.

 

[joesawer]

i bought a loop of oregon square and set the guide up to match the original angles. looks pretty radical as compared to the round way. prolly took 2 hours and 4 beers to get it set up. lots of tweeking as the file holder is not conducive to 6 sided files. hence the questions.

is the goofy file easier to freehand than the 6 sided??

havent put it to the wood yet.

thanks

Click on the links in this thread to see what the finished product is supposed to look like.
A file guide for a round file will not allow you to get the right angles. The file should be tilted down at about a 45 degree angle and you will be filing into the tie strap. The short side of the six sided file will be making the vertical edge on the side plate, and the long side will be sharpening the top plate.
As the file cuts toward the back of the tooth the long side on the bottom cuts into the gullet, since the cuts in the tooth are tapered it tends to get harder to file the side plate. To make it easier to file the all important top angles, I file the gullet down a little first to give the file room to work without binding.

 

[046]

for me... main problem with using square grind is a lack of affordable square chain grinders. did spend the time learning how to hand file square. conclusion... it takes me way too long to hand file square. vs hand filing round takes very little time.

no question a properly ground square chain will out cut a round filed chain. main drawback is square gets dull quick in dirty wood. to successfully use square chain around here, requires having several spare square filed chains ready to change out. others may be able to hand file square in the field, but takes me too long to file while cutting.

vs round file chain cuts good and tolerates dirty wood much better. if a round file chain gets dull. it usually takes me 3-4 minutes to sharpen a round chain and good to go again. always carry spare chains that are seldom used.

purchased a dozen or so new square chains to properly give square chain a fair shot. ended up filing all those square chains back to round.

 

[Crofter]

am making my first attempt at square filing and using the 6 sided perfered file in the granberg guide (no way i can square file free hand w/ the 6 sided) and finding it very difficult to secure the file in the guide. but finally did. kinda

questions are
1. can a small fine rectangle file be used?? it can be purchased locally.
that file would have a 90* corner. is that fesable? because the 6 sided has 60* corners.



2. is the goofy file easier to use freehand than the 6 sided? that file really confuses me because it has the rounded edge. seems to defeat the "square" advantage.

The working corner of the chisel bit file is actually a 120 deg. angle; the 60 deg. intersection goes in the bottom of the gullet. a file with 90 deg corners will not work to cut the necessary angles unless you do them in separate operations

The intersection of the flat of the goofy file with the round of its edge actually gives an angle quite close to that of the working corner of the 6 sided chisel bit files. what makes it easier to use is the fact that the rotational position of the file does not affect the "hook" of the side cutter. A few strokes with a goofy file on a conventionally round filed tooth will give you a big speed boost and it is not noticeable to the casual eye! That material right in the inside corner underneath the top plate is the biggest loss of efficiency in a round filed chain.

The picture "round and square" shows a round filed tooth from the inside that is about 4 strokes short of being completley converted to square filed, yet from the other side would appear as a completely untouched round filed tooth. A similar situation would result with using a goofy file. I will see if I can get a picture of a goofy filed tooth.

 

[1953greg]

thanks frank, great pics and explanation
"The working corner of the chisel bit file is actually a 120 deg. angle; the 60 deg. intersection goes in the bottom of the gullet"

so is the top plate sharpened w/ the short edge of the 6 sided?

i can duplicate, close to anyhow, everything but the length of your sharpened part of the side plate. mine is only bout half that length which is sharpened w/ the short side of the 6 sided file.
is that critical?

so which file was the chain n the pic sharpened with?


i have way too much wiggle n wobble in my stroke to freehand. if my fileguide setup dosent work then i am just sol. might try the goofy though if its better than round. looks like it might be a compromise between square and round and much easier to use.
right??

looks like both my angles are bout 10* steeper than yours. took a setting of 30* on the top plate and 20* on the side to match the factory grind. not sure what these numbers mean, except as a reference for the future, as the angles it produces on the chain are different because of the compound angle of attack. i was able to keep the corner of the file on the point of the cutter though. my perception is that is critical, right?

046 "ended up filing all those square chains back to round."
might b where i go too!!!!!!!!!
for field work for sure

my hat is off to you guys that can square file!!!!

 

[Crofter]

thanks frank, great pics and explanation
"The working corner of the chisel bit file is actually a 120 deg. angle; the 60 deg. intersection goes in the bottom of the gullet"

so is the top plate sharpened w/ the short edge of the 6 sided?


No the top plate would be sharpened with the large flat surface of the center file or one of the larger facets of the triangular shaped one.

i can duplicate, close to anyhow, everything but the length of your sharpened part of the side plate. mine is only bout half that length which is sharpened w/ the short side of the 6 sided file.
is that critical?

so which file was the chain n the pic sharpened with?

The center file but the triangular one would have made a very similar job with only a slightly lesser height to the side cutter face.

i have way too much wiggle n wobble in my stroke to freehand. if my fileguide setup dosent work then i am just sol. might try the goofy though if its better than round. looks like it might be a compromise between square and round and much easier to use.
right??

looks like both my angles are bout 10* steeper than yours. took a setting of 30* on the top plate and 20* on the side to match the factory grind. not sure what these numbers mean, except as a reference for the future, as the angles it produces on the chain are different because of the compound angle of attack. i was able to keep the corner of the file on the point of the cutter though. my perception is that is critical, right?

The wiggle and wobble is a problem at first but can be made better by how you place yourself to get a parallel stroke. There sure are a lot of relationships to concentrate on at once. it is a whole lot easier if someone can show you a few pointers. A little straighter across and steeper down angle is closer to the factory angles but not as fast as the angles on that tooth.

046 "ended up filing all those square chains back to round."
might b where i go too!!!!!!!!!
for field work for sure

It really is no problem converting them back and forth from one to the other.
my hat is off to you guys that can square file!!!!

I have experimented a bit with adding a reference guide to my chain clamp as a learning device. It probably will be laughed at but I think it might make learning a little easier. Once a person is experienced the angles pretty well happen without thinking about it. I include one picture here with the pieces tacked on to the side of the clamp at the right height and width and magic marker marks to locate chain and side of file so basically all you have to think about is placing the corner of the file on the corner of the tooth and watching the rotation of the file to control the side plate hook angle. The file is just kissing the side of the guide and that gives the downward and rearward angles as long as the tooth front is always positioned in the same location.

 

[jack-the-ripper]

Greg

Here is a link about hand filing square chain. Hope this helps.http://www.forestapps.com/tips/squarechain/squareground.pdf

 

[24d]

Crofter,
For beginner, which file do you recomend starting with and where do you get them? Also what type of chain do you start with?

 

[Crofter]

I prefer the flat style chisel bit file but if you are ordering get one of the triangular style too as some people find it easier to visualize the angles. They are available from Baileys Online, a sponser here and also from Masdsens. Some do not have very crisp corners and are blurry to look at and do not get you as crisp a definition between side and top plate. I have got good and bad from different brands but it is no big deal especially for learning. Use your worst ones for roughing in and save the better ones for finishing and retouching wood dulled chains. I think you have a reasonably secure chain vise and I think it is easier to learn that way than on the saw. I like the possibility to tilt the chain vise and have the file horizontal but everyone has to find what works for them. I need really good light above and slightly on the other side of the chain from where I stand. The mag viewer in addition to my readers are a must.

 

[Crofter]

bump.......... Post #73 has the attachment with pictures of the goofy file, the flat style chisel bit file and the triangular style chisel bit files for doing so called square filing. The Picture is not real good of the goofy file but the sides are cut the same as about a 5/32 round file. The flat side sharpens the bottom of the top plate while the rounded side sharpens the side cutter. because the file slides under the top plate and back at more than a 45 degree angle, the bevel on the side cutter is much finer than what you make with a round file angled at 30 deg. (90 - 30 =60 degree angle on the side cutter) With square filing you get from 30 to 45 degree and since 2/3 of the energy goes into severing end grain fiber it really is not hard to see where the square grind is 15 to 40% faster. No question if you hit dirt or trash the thinner edge will get damaged deeper and quicker.

 

[1953greg]

for me... main problem with using square grind is a lack of affordable square chain grinders. did spend the time learning how to hand file square. conclusion... it takes me way too long to hand file square. vs hand filing round takes very little time.

no question a properly ground square chain will out cut a round filed chain. main drawback is square gets dull quick in dirty wood. to successfully use square chain around here, requires having several spare square filed chains ready to change out. others may be able to hand file square in the field, but takes me too long to file while cutting.

vs round file chain cuts good and tolerates dirty wood much better. if a round file chain gets dull. it usually takes me 3-4 minutes to sharpen a round chain and good to go again. always carry spare chains that are seldom used.

purchased a dozen or so new square chains to properly give square chain a fair shot. ended up filing all those square chains back to round.

my sentiments exactly

i did get the wow factor but it didnt last long.

filed the two i squared back to round last eve.

thanks everyone for your help

 

[BC_Logger]

:chainsawguy: welcome to the pacific side

 

[redprospector]

The mag viewer in addition to my readers are a must.

I know what your talking about here. 15 or 16 years ago I could file a chain with my eye's shut. Now if I don't have the magnifiers, I might as well file with my eye's shut.

All you guy's who are going back to round chain need to keep trying the square. Some day when you're touching up a square chain in the wood's in 4 or 5 minute's, you'll look back and laugh about how you used to dread filing.

Andy

 

[TwinTurboRam]

All you guy's who are going back to round chain need to keep trying the square. Some day when you're touching up a square chain in the wood's in 4 or 5 minute's, you'll look back and laugh about how you used to dread filing.

Andy

+1

I think it took me about a year and a half of on and off filing to finally get where I could touch up a chain by file and it actually cut ok. In that time I made plenty that didnt cut real good, and remember a few that didnt seem to want to cut at all. Now I usually touch up my chains with a file if in the woods, and if they are beyond a touch up, or its the end of the day they go on the grinder.

 

[Crofter]

Nice looking grinding job there TTR.