LOL this thread reminds me of a Brad Upton stand-up bit... "Our parents let us play with guns, knives, and fireworks. You know what happened to the stupid kids? They didn't make it." 
Chain Break Mania
- Thread starter Gypo Logger
- Start date
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The only ways I see having the chain brake on would make a saw safer would be:
a. If the saw is in poor maintenance and the chain is moving when the saw idles,
b. If the operator is clueless enough to keep his finger on the throttle trigger when walking around.
a. If the saw is in poor maintenance and the chain is moving when the saw idles,
b. If the operator is clueless enough to keep his finger on the throttle trigger when walking around.
There is no ****ing way on God's green earth that the lame passenger-vehicle traction control and anti-lock brakes allows me to control a vehicle better on ice,snow, gravel, and mud. I can hold the brakes on the edge of traction just ****ing fine all by myself, thank-you very much.
I can out-drive that **** with my eyes closed. 45 years of driving in northern Canada on-road, off-road, ice road; pickups, bikes,quads, trikes, sleds and other equipment with wheels and tracks. Those pos, low-tech programmed-for-grannies systems piss me off to no end.
some of you pups have no idea about that, so I have no intention of debating the subject. Mr.Miller is a young fellow who gets it. One of the few.
Don't even ****in think about it. Cause you are so wrong...
just a little rant.
I can out-drive that **** with my eyes closed. 45 years of driving in northern Canada on-road, off-road, ice road; pickups, bikes,quads, trikes, sleds and other equipment with wheels and tracks. Those pos, low-tech programmed-for-grannies systems piss me off to no end.
some of you pups have no idea about that, so I have no intention of debating the subject. Mr.Miller is a young fellow who gets it. One of the few.
Don't even ****in think about it. Cause you are so wrong...
just a little rant.
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There is no ****ing way on God's green earth that the lame passenger-vehicle traction control and anti-lock brakes allows me to control a vehicle better on ice,snow, gravel, and mud. I can hold the brakes on the edge of traction just ****ing fine all by myself, thank-you very much.
I can out-drive that **** with my eyes closed. 45 years of driving in northern Canada on-road, off-road, ice road; pickups, bikes,quads, trikes, sleds and other equipment with wheels and tracks. Those pos, low-tech programmed-for-grannies systems piss me off to no end.
some of you pups have no idea about that, so I have no intention of debating the subject. Mr.Miller is a young fellow who gets it. One of the few.
Don't even ****in think about it. Cause you are so wrong...
just a little rant.
The self driving cars will handle it fine,
eventually,
after many deaths....
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The press will cover it up...
There is no ****ing way on God's green earth that the lame passenger-vehicle traction control and anti-lock brakes allows me to control a vehicle better on ice,snow, gravel, and mud. I can hold the brakes on the edge of traction just ****ing fine all by myself, thank-you very much.
I can out-drive that **** with my eyes closed. 45 years of driving in northern Canada on-road, off-road, ice road; pickups, bikes,quads, trikes, sleds and other equipment with wheels and tracks. Those pos, low-tech programmed-for-grannies systems piss me off to no end.
some of you pups have no idea about that, so I have no intention of debating the subject. Mr.Miller is a young fellow who gets it. One of the few.
Don't even ****in think about it. Cause you are so wrong...
just a little rant.
Mate I'm only 32 and I say hell no too abs too sorta. My wifes friends or grandma or other people that cannot drive a vehicle by feel yup abs or perfect seal grip yeah ok fine abs works good. But any I mean ANY loose surface you lose alot of control with that crap. Gravel for instance a Subaru wrx with abs turned off is far faster and safer by a million miles abs robs your option of a lock up and if you're transferring weight properly around you use the lock up to steer the car. I'd go as far to say abs on gravel for many of us is downright dangerous it makes you drive for understeer and also ruins fwd left foot braking too.
It's like wheel alignment is always set for understeer and yeah for grandma again it's a good thing for a number of reasons but it creates an ill handling car. Understeer oversteer a lock up or wheel slip/spin all need to be an option to the driver and perhaps better training to learn to use these tools of control.
Perhaps I'm used to the winding bumpy tight loose roads of rural new Zealand to much but go through a mountain pass in a decent car with abs now turn it off and do it again and tell me how it went.
Once you learn how to function in the fight or flight state of mind abs can indeed be out braked. Especially in questionable grip/surfaces
Mountain biking dirt bikes ummm fighting a few sports motorsports all teach the brain to function like normal when the sh!t is hitting the fan rather than panic.
Panic brake people yes it definitely is a good thing.
Take a fwd car most say fwd understeer like hell well yes but.. try a fwd with more psi in the rear and a big sway bar and a good lsd and fwd becomes an whole new thing you can point it/steer anywhere you need too but... you gotta drive it or you WILL be backwards really fast but the car in the right hands is far safer.
I feel the same for clicking the brake non stop if you need to do that to be safe then cool as but if you can think on the run you will have tossed the saw long before you land on it. I love my brake on my old Mac's for a kick back event the operator safety is a good thing too but it ain't going to stop me from running a fine saw just don't be silly. The good thing with old saws is they have balls to pull a chain slowly so those sketchy times when kick is probable or putting the danger zone of the bar somewhere is necessary you can cut slowly and safely these modern wiz bang saws wont cut and keep stalling out and sure enough ya get sh!tty and wind up slamming the nose somewhere to quickly (anti vibe saws make it worse too) and bang its kicked hard at you
If you need to put your brake on then do it. My 9 inch grinder don't have a brake and anyone of you guys uses a 9 all day you know all about kick backs and there a different level to chain saws
End rant sorry guys.
Imagine limbing this tree and clicking the brake every cut
James Miller
Addicted to ArboristSite
Now there heads will really explode.
Honestly the best time I've had in a car was pushing a stock 1st gen miata to its limits down a twisty back road. For the most part don't need brakes to get the car to work, maybe a tap here or there to get the front to bite a little harder. Sure it was a turd in a straight line but down a back road there in there element.
Canyon Angler
Addicted to ArboristSite
LOL, I bet you can also beat your computer at chess.
The only way one can determine how much braking force a given road surface will allow is to increase braking force until the wheel stops turning, then reduce the braking force until it starts to turn again. The point at which the wheel stops turning (or starts turning again) is the maximum braking force the road surface will sustain. That's not my theory -- it's physics. It's how they do these calculations in the lab. And it's how ABS does it, at 15 times per second, independently on every wheel.
Can you flex and release ANY muscle in your body at 15 Hz? If so, I've got $5 and a job for you...
I guess you never learned how to drive on ice. Or gravel. Or mud. Or snow.
and you can shove your smug "physics" up your ass.
clueless. Like entirely clueless.
some of us spend half our driving lives on icey, snowy, muddy, and gravel roads. Do you think WE don't know what we are talking about?
get real, you have no idea. None.
and you can shove your smug "physics" up your ass.
clueless. Like entirely clueless.
some of us spend half our driving lives on icey, snowy, muddy, and gravel roads. Do you think WE don't know what we are talking about?
get real, you have no idea. None.
Canyon Angler
Addicted to ArboristSite
Here, maybe this will help:
https://physics.ucf.edu/~saul/01_Fall_2048C/Tsts/Test3/F01tst3soln-p3.pdf
When arguing a point, sometimes it helps to have a clue WTF you're talking about.
https://physics.ucf.edu/~saul/01_Fall_2048C/Tsts/Test3/F01tst3soln-p3.pdf
When arguing a point, sometimes it helps to have a clue WTF you're talking about.
Wow. You are the one without clues my friend.
How much time have you spent driving on ice? Or snow, or mud, or gravel? The fact that you refute my rant just tells me, and others here that you simply haven't developed any compromised-traction driving skills. Obviously. To those of us who do have a clue about this you are making yourself look very foolish.
you know NOTHING about the subject yet you lol at me?
How much time have you spent driving on ice? Or snow, or mud, or gravel? The fact that you refute my rant just tells me, and others here that you simply haven't developed any compromised-traction driving skills. Obviously. To those of us who do have a clue about this you are making yourself look very foolish.
you know NOTHING about the subject yet you lol at me?
Canyon Angler
Addicted to ArboristSite
Hmmm...to be fair, this study is 20 years old, but it supports your claim on loose gravel (but only loose gravel):
https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.dot.gov/files/sae1999-01-1287.pdf
Excerpt: "For most stopping maneuvers, made on most test surfaes, ABS-assisted panic stops were found to be shorter than those made with best effort or full pedal applications with the ABS disabled (see Table 2). The one exception to this trend occurred on the loose gravel, where stopping distances with ABS were extended by an overall average of 27.2 percent
over the disabled-ABS panic stops."
but
"The vehicular stability observed during the stops made for this study was almost always found to be superior with ABS."
and
"This study also establishes that antilock brake systems include stopping distance versus vehicular stability compromises. Most antilock brake systems maintain vehicular stability while braking by minimizing excessive yaw. In a curve, this stability may be created by sacrificing the shortest attainable stopping distance. With this said, most test vehicles (only one exception was observed) were stopped in shorter distances with ABS than with disabled-ABS best effort attempts for maneuvers that involved braking and steering (or steering and braking). Under these conditions, ABS prevented wheel lockup and minimized yaw for all nine vehicles."
What were we talking about, again?
https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.dot.gov/files/sae1999-01-1287.pdf
Excerpt: "For most stopping maneuvers, made on most test surfaes, ABS-assisted panic stops were found to be shorter than those made with best effort or full pedal applications with the ABS disabled (see Table 2). The one exception to this trend occurred on the loose gravel, where stopping distances with ABS were extended by an overall average of 27.2 percent
over the disabled-ABS panic stops."but
"The vehicular stability observed during the stops made for this study was almost always found to be superior with ABS."
and
"This study also establishes that antilock brake systems include stopping distance versus vehicular stability compromises. Most antilock brake systems maintain vehicular stability while braking by minimizing excessive yaw. In a curve, this stability may be created by sacrificing the shortest attainable stopping distance. With this said, most test vehicles (only one exception was observed) were stopped in shorter distances with ABS than with disabled-ABS best effort attempts for maneuvers that involved braking and steering (or steering and braking). Under these conditions, ABS prevented wheel lockup and minimized yaw for all nine vehicles."
What were we talking about, again?
I am not going to read any of that. I do appreciate that you are trying to understand my rant. I am passionate about this one. I learned to drive and spent many, many miles driving on loose, slippery surfaces. And then ABS showed up and ruined my day. Ha!
those guys doing that "study" apparently did not try ice or snow or mud. They are clueless too.
Sorry, but this one is MINE. You simply DON'T KNOW.
lets say you've been driving 20,000 miles/year for over 20 years (that's conservative, as I've had 45,000 mile years) on nothing but ice and snow and mud and gravel. And that you spent over 1/2 of that driving with no ABS or traction control whatsoever. Let's say that you have tried a dozen different tires on a dozen different vehicles over the course of those 20 years. Let's say that you've been hangin' with many others with similar experience and discussed this subject, sometimes at length.
Do you think that you might have developed a valid opinion on the subject?
I see you are from Virginia. I'm guessing that you rarely drive in marginal traction conditions. Many of us do drive in marginal traction conditions for months on end. Heck, my 1/4 mile driveway is snow-covered ice right now. And the 12 miles of gravel to the pavement is ice and snow. And the next 7 miles to town is pavement with icy patches cause it's too cold for the salt to work properly.
anyway, perhaps you should comment on subjects which you know something about..
those guys doing that "study" apparently did not try ice or snow or mud. They are clueless too.
Sorry, but this one is MINE. You simply DON'T KNOW.
lets say you've been driving 20,000 miles/year for over 20 years (that's conservative, as I've had 45,000 mile years) on nothing but ice and snow and mud and gravel. And that you spent over 1/2 of that driving with no ABS or traction control whatsoever. Let's say that you have tried a dozen different tires on a dozen different vehicles over the course of those 20 years. Let's say that you've been hangin' with many others with similar experience and discussed this subject, sometimes at length.
Do you think that you might have developed a valid opinion on the subject?
I see you are from Virginia. I'm guessing that you rarely drive in marginal traction conditions. Many of us do drive in marginal traction conditions for months on end. Heck, my 1/4 mile driveway is snow-covered ice right now. And the 12 miles of gravel to the pavement is ice and snow. And the next 7 miles to town is pavement with icy patches cause it's too cold for the salt to work properly.
anyway, perhaps you should comment on subjects which you know something about..
When I first started driving we would buy a beater then find an icy dirt road every winter and take turns seeing who could go the fastest or get the most sideways and not go in the ditch. This really helps teach you how to drive in the winter, you never panic as you know what the car will do when it slides and how to stop it from sliding. I also race dirt bikes and go atving, so I drive where theres no traction a lot lol.
I've pulled the abs fuse on some older abs equipped cars and they stopped better, it wasnt that great when it first came out, my newish car I have now has pretty good abs and im not disabling it.
Traction control in cars just doesn't work in snow, I don't get why they bother with it at all. My Suzuki atv has traction control that actually works, it limits how fast the motor will rev up, so you still spin and keep moving but don't spin wildly. They should use this set up in cars it works in snow and ice.
Since this started out about chain breaks, I don't use mine much at all. I carry the saw by the top handle so I cant accidently hit the gas and my saws idle great without the chain ever spinning at idle.
I've pulled the abs fuse on some older abs equipped cars and they stopped better, it wasnt that great when it first came out, my newish car I have now has pretty good abs and im not disabling it.
Traction control in cars just doesn't work in snow, I don't get why they bother with it at all. My Suzuki atv has traction control that actually works, it limits how fast the motor will rev up, so you still spin and keep moving but don't spin wildly. They should use this set up in cars it works in snow and ice.
Since this started out about chain breaks, I don't use mine much at all. I carry the saw by the top handle so I cant accidently hit the gas and my saws idle great without the chain ever spinning at idle.
Huskybill
Addicted to ArboristSite
Btw, I see guys start there saws with the brake on? Why? The brakes are probably good for a new guy cutting with kick backs. Till he learns how to avoid them.
I’m feeling the miss use of chain brake system? It’s like finding out what our pecker is for and can’t stop playing with it. Ever watch the guy/car in front of us driving on slippery ice and snow constantly stepping on the brakes? I’m thinking there checking to see if the brakes still work? Its the same guy who constantly checks the brakes on the saw. Lol
I never wore out a brake band in my decades of cutting. The bottom line is besafe, and return home the same condition that we left in.
I’m feeling the miss use of chain brake system? It’s like finding out what our pecker is for and can’t stop playing with it. Ever watch the guy/car in front of us driving on slippery ice and snow constantly stepping on the brakes? I’m thinking there checking to see if the brakes still work? Its the same guy who constantly checks the brakes on the saw. Lol
I never wore out a brake band in my decades of cutting. The bottom line is besafe, and return home the same condition that we left in.
I breezed over that test. It's a very well done scientific exercise. Hooray!
but their conditions were very limited. They hadn't much at their disposal, unfortunately. That test is simply invalid in the vast majority of low traction driving around here. We don't consider "wet" to even be considered as "low" traction, really.
chain brakes rule!
but their conditions were very limited. They hadn't much at their disposal, unfortunately. That test is simply invalid in the vast majority of low traction driving around here. We don't consider "wet" to even be considered as "low" traction, really.
chain brakes rule!
Nope.
I know guys that have been using saws for 50 years and literally have zero clue how to properly fell trees or safely handle saws. I know plenty of people that have driven over a million miles, yet have zero idea how to heel/toe correctly. Time in a drivers seat means little. Time on a saw means little. Plenty of old people doing jobs poorly because they started doing it poorly and are too stubborn and prideful to learn how to do it a better way.
Anytime anyone tells me, 'look, I'm not going to listen to a thing you have to say because I've been doing this forever and I know what I'm talking about' is the people I generally will not listen to or take advise from. Too prideful to learn something new and better. Dangerous people. Especially when they refuse to even entertain the idea and read some studies on the subject at hand.
People I respect and gravitate to are the ones who have been doing it a while but are constantly searching for a better way. Willing to listen and apply scientific principles like physics. They know that they might not be gods gift to driving, and they might have been doing something in a non-optimal way for the past 40 years. Maybe they change, maybe they don't. But they're willing to learn and grow themselves. Those are the people that are worth listening to and learning from.
the study is ****. It's a wet ****ing parking lot for **** sakes!
Do you have 4 brake pedals that you can modulate individually? Do you have a reaction time that's hundreds of times faster than the average human being?
Because that's what would be physically necessary for you to even begin compete with today's ABS systems.
These are not the ABS systems of the 80's or 90's.
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