[Rant] Chinese animosity

[Rockjock]

Good point about Chinese parts and lives being on the line. You won't find any Chinese produced parts in the aero-space industry.

No but you do find substandard, previously reject parts finding their way into aircraft. But they are Made in the USA parts!

 

[BWS-LLC]

If the truth makes me a racist, I guess I'm guilty as charged.

Same here.

I've been called a racist numerous times.

I just reply "sometimes the truth hurts"

 

[Matt81]

Then these products come to the US, and sometimes the quality is so below what people are used to that they complain that it is "cheap Chinese crap". The reality is, it isn't so much the Chinese's fault, its the fault of the company that dictates the low price point. This trend has repeated itself before in history. Some of you may remember "Jap Crap" from the 80's, and eventually Japan began to limit the amount low-quality production work they did. Now, typically, Japanese quality is considered top shelf. China now too is going through these growing pains.

Every time I read someone saying that 'its cheap Chinese crap' I feel there is a stigma towards the Chinese. And every time I think, "they're just making it cheap because they were told to make it cheap."

[/Rant]

30+ years ago when my father built our house he needed some power tools. He was told to go check out a local tool store that was importing new quality power tools. After looking at some and thinking they were quite expensive but needing them for the building work he asked at his work what people thought. He was told by many "Don't buy that Japanese rubbish, buy something from America or England that will last." Well have a guess what he bought the Japanese "rubbish" and every single tool still work today. All have had the motor brushes changed several times and they have all been used far beyond what the manufacturer no doubt intended as a "working life span". The brand in question was Ryobi/Makita back when they were a joint venture. Some of them are still current model, but no doubt have updated and changed internal components.

China no doubt will become better in time at producing better quality components and products. I agree completely that the aggressive way in which they blatantly copy (albeit poorly) an existing product and/or steal intellectual property and have a devil may care attitude towards patents/copyrights and trademarks is a serious global concern. The root of this problem however is not China but the Western countries and the consumers that buy the products. If everyone stopped buying them to try to save a buck then they would not manufacture them if there was no market to sell to. I have had a bit of a go in the past at people who buy aftermarket parts and then whinge and whine to all who will listen that the parts were not very good quality and that the plastic colours did not match the saw bodies original colours properly. If you were genuinely concerned about these things you would not have bought cheap Chinese aftermarket parts. You only bought them to save a few bucks. Stop buying them and buy better AM parts or even OEM and stop supporting this unlawful and generally unpleasant manufacturing industry.

 

[Matt B]

Chinese products may be the current target but hasn't quality always been variable...

I work in the pharmaceutical industry and could write about many horror stories involving drugs made down to a price in regions with lax regulations.

In the end the Chinese will be undercut by the next group, African's, Outer Mongolians it doesn't matter. They'll then climb the quality ladder, as many already are. Society will change along with this. The history of manufacturing since the industrial revolution has plenty of examples, interesting stuff actually.

Complaining about quality is all well and good. As with others above, what's more important are the decisions we make as consumers.

Back to saws. When researching parts for a rebuild of an 024s I could save $110 if I went Chinese over OEM on seals, gaskets and main crank bearings alone. Over time the extra money spent on OEM would be forgotten but I'm sure I'd never stop thinking about weather the knock off parts would hold together. Easy decision.

Propitiatory bearings grrr, damn Stihl knows how to run a business...esp in Oz!

 

[1Alpha1]

No but you do find substandard, previously reject parts finding their way into aircraft. But they are Made in the USA parts!

That's true, but that's another issue altogether.

 

[lknchoppers]

I was a distributor for Chinese products up until a couple years ago. My take on it is they made crappy parts 10 years ago and they have no problem making crappy parts now. They do not respect patents and there isn't any research and development. If things don't fit they force it or slam some washers in there to take up the slack. My opinion is my own and will not change. I do not trust the Chinese to actually fix problems and they do not have any problems sending out sub-par parts to make money. I am done with them, someone else can get suckered into buying their cheap junk that looks good on paper or in pictures.

 

[fields_mj]

For those who believe that China will get better over time just like Japan did, you are mistaken. While it's true that not ALL Chinese products are junk (ie electronics), it is true that the majority of China's exports ARE junk, and will remain that way largely because they are owned and operated by the STATE. Also keep in mind that many of the so called "GOOD" products coming out of China are actually coming out of Taiwan where they followed the Japanese model until China regained control of the island. State run companies have always struggled to attain high quality standards regardless of the country they are in. There's simply not enough motivation for a worker to do their best, only to do good enough. So long as the state continues to run the companies, this pattern will continue.

To the individual from the Auto Industry who has been receiving molds from China, you've never had to follow one of those molds all the way to production, or you're a complete and utter fool. I've spent almost 20 years in the Auto industry with most of that being spent specifically in the injection molding business. Chinese molds are made from poor quality steel and wear out quickly, and often suffer catastrophic failures during production. Their molds only arrive on time because they are shipped as is, complete or not. Literally, the ship is leaving and that mold is going to be on it one way or another. Every, and I do mean absolutely every mold that we received from SE Aisa had to first go to a mold shop where they had to lay it out and fix it before it could ever be set into a press. That money was generally pulled from a completely seperate budget so it still made the idiots at Ford/GM/Chrysler look like a hero by sourcing to China, but in the end the mold cost more $$ to get into production, took longer to get into production, produced parts that were further out of spec, and failed more quickly than anything made in North America.
As for finding Chinese parts inside a German chainsaw, or any other quality product for that matter, there's more to that sorry than most folks realize. Specifically with respect to components that come into contact with various oils and fuels, the formulation for those components can be quite nasty. Often times such components are manufactured in an underdeveloped country because the EPA (or their counter part) prevent using such compounds to produce products in more developed nations.
At the end of the day, so long as the majority of Americans decide that the initial price of a product is more important than anything else, we as a country will continue to purchase the majority of our goods from them. With the dumbing down of our students in public schools, the exponentially increasing cost of secondary education, and the decreased value placed on skilled trades; not to mention the continued political growth of the uneducated/government dependent/Urban populace, I don't see this trend changing any time soon.

 

[1Alpha1]

30+ years ago when my father built our house he needed some power tools. He was told to go check out a local tool store that was importing new quality power tools. After looking at some and thinking they were quite expensive but needing them for the building work he asked at his work what people thought. He was told by many "Don't buy that Japanese rubbish, buy something from America or England that will last." Well have a guess what he bought the Japanese "rubbish" and every single tool still work today. All have had the motor brushes changed several times and they have all been used far beyond what the manufacturer no doubt intended as a "working life span". The brand in question was Ryobi/Makita back when they were a joint venture. Some of them are still current model, but no doubt have updated and changed internal components.

China no doubt will become better in time at producing better quality components and products. I agree completely that the aggressive way in which they blatantly copy (albeit poorly) an existing product and/or steal intellectual property and have a devil may care attitude towards patents/copyrights and trademarks is a serious global concern. The root of this problem however is not China but the Western countries and the consumers that buy the products. If everyone stopped buying them to try to save a buck then they would not manufacture them if there was no market to sell to. I have had a bit of a go in the past at people who buy aftermarket parts and then whinge and whine to all who will listen that the parts were not very good quality and that the plastic colours did not match the saw bodies original colours properly. If you were genuinely concerned about these things you would not have bought cheap Chinese aftermarket parts. You only bought them to save a few bucks. Stop buying them and buy better AM parts or even OEM and stop supporting this unlawful and generally unpleasant manufacturing industry.

Agreed. At one time, Japan was in the same boat that China is right now. Is it politically correct to say China, Japan and boat in the same sentence? Oh well.......

Anyways, Japan has come a long ways and they make some incredibly high-quality products, and their technology is right up there with the rest of the world.

I don't know if I'll live long enough to see China make that some change that Japan did. I do have my doubts.

 

[Chris-PA]

and there isn't any research and development

Do you have any idea how many engineers and technical people they graduate every year, and how many products are designed there?

many of the so called "GOOD" products coming out of China are actually coming out of Taiwan where they followed the Japanese model until China regained control of the island.

I figured there wasn't much point in reading the rest of it.

I realize the issue is upsetting, but posting nonsense that a couple of minutes searching on the web can refute is just silly.

 

[Matt81]

Also keep in mind that many of the so called "GOOD" products coming out of China are actually coming out of Taiwan where they followed the Japanese model until China regained control of the island. State run companies have always struggled to attain high quality standards regardless of the country they are in.

What nonsense! China is its own country and Taiwan is it's own country. They don't answer to China. Why would they let Products made completely in Taiwan be labelled "made in China"? It's not going to improve the sales and marketing of said product is it? I have many "made in Taiwan" tools and the quality is very good. As good as many Japanese and German stuff i have actually.

Yes there is history between the 2 countries and there is still an undercurrent of old school hardliners that no doubt go to sleep every night wanting to "re-unite" the "rogue province" of Taiwan to the mainland, but like Chris-PA said, please don't post nonsense that can be so easily disproved.

 

[RAS61]

China is its own country and Taiwan is it's own country.

He was probably thinking of Hong Kong. I like buying items fron Taiwan, the quality is very good, and it's also a slap in the face to China.

 

[texican65]

This is a very sensitive and serious discussion here. While I'm trying to remain fair and open minded...I really cant understand why anybody is standing up for a cause that is doing nothing but helping rip our nation apart. I encourage all to watch the documentary DEATH BY CHINA. Check it out friends.



Dow

 

[1Alpha1]

He was probably thinking of Hong Kong. I like buying items fron Taiwan, the quality is very good, and it's also a slap in the face to China.

I have quite a few KABAR fixed blade knives. One of the models is made in Taiwan. It's made of D2 steel and is quite a nice knife.

FIN #5556 Fixed Blade Tanto

 

[Matt81]

He was probably thinking of Hong Kong. I like buying items fron Taiwan, the quality is very good, and it's also a slap in the face to China.

Probably, but still a silly thing to say when you are writing long winded paragraphs and don't know what you are talking about.

I buy many tools and also many mountain bike parts from Taiwan. SRAM has a huge factory over there in Taichung Taiwan, and Rock shox are made there now since Rock shox were bought out by them.

Yeah, i like buying Taiwanese also for that same reason.

This is a very sensitive and serious discussion here. While I'm trying to remain fair and open minded...I really cant understand why anybody is standing up for a cause that is doing nothing but helping rip our nation apart. I encourage all to watch the documentary DEATH BY CHINA. Check it out friends. Dow

Not only your nation buddy! I am in no way encouraging or defending Chinese products. Especially when the rules of law concerning patents/copyrights and intellectual property are completely disregarded when a Chinese company decides to "copy" another quality western item. We are to blame for fueling the fire of their production by continuing to buy Chinese made products. I have seen that doco before and it was well worth watching. It is overly dramatised and very one sided, but it is certainly something that warrants further examination and discussion. It did make very valid and poignant arguments. If nothing else it should be a very real wake up call to the perils of global trade with China and the death of manufacturing in the US. Same goes for manufacturing over here, but i won't let this become a rant!

 

[hamish]

What nonsense! China is its own country and Taiwan is it's own country. They don't answer to China. Why would they let Products made completely in Taiwan be labelled "made in China"? It's not going to improve the sales and marketing of said product is it? I have many "made in Taiwan" tools and the quality is very good. As good as many Japanese and German stuff i have actually.

Yes there is history between the 2 countries and there is still an undercurrent of old school hardliners that no doubt go to sleep every night wanting to "re-unite" the "rogue province" of Taiwan to the mainland, but like Chris-PA said, please don't post nonsense that can be so easily disproved.

Taiwan PRC/ROC.

That means Peoples Republic of China, Republic of China, Taiwan is a Province/State, not a country.

All the "crap" products spoken about are based upon the greed of your own fellow countrymen, in whatever country you may be. Goods produced in China are ordered and distributed primarily by our own businesses and to there specifications, at there maximum profit margin. China and India are the new industrial nations, get used to it, they are no different that we were 100 years ago, its there turn now.

North American trade in the past has been very limited, with over half of all trade being within North America, exports near minimal.

To those that continually say, when you stop watching they cut corners, that just a business practice they have learned from the west, yes from us.

Take a look to Europe and find the economic leader, then take at look at there importation and production rules.

 

[Matt B]

To those who question China's capacity to change just look at what the same Han Chinese have achieved in Taiwan.

China's change in the last 30 years has been arguably the most significant in history, based on many metrics. Is it all for the good, no. Can it keep going at the same rate, no. There is now a younger, more educated and connected generation in the pipeline which will change everything for the old 1st world nations. They are ambitious, know how westerners live and will not be content connecting part A to part B on a production line. They must not be resisted or feared but embraced. The alternative doesn't work.

We in the west have to step up and do what we do well. In the US I've been greatly pleased to see the on-shoring movement gathering pace, it seems many companies are fed up with dealing with bad overseas operators. China is already feeling the winds of change blowing from across the water.

Back to saws. Getting concerned this thread will get shifted to the political area. Germans make good ones, mostly. There are others....

 

[hamish]

Well getting back to saws the Germans know nothing, the Swedes sure do!

For some strange reason one country in the world has a very hard time comprehending and understanding the rest of the world, let alone accepting them as equals.

Haha you might have to explain on-shoring to most of the readers!

 

[Matt81]

Taiwan PRC/ROC.
That means Peoples Republic of China, Republic of China, Taiwan is a Province/State, not a country.
All the "crap" products spoken about are based upon the greed of your own fellow countrymen, in whatever country you may be. Goods produced in China are ordered and distributed primarily by our own businesses and to there specifications, at there maximum profit margin. China and India are the new industrial nations, get used to it, they are no different that we were 100 years ago, its there turn now.
North American trade in the past has been very limited, with over half of all trade being within North America, exports near minimal.
To those that continually say, when you stop watching they cut corners, that just a business practice they have learned from the west, yes from us.
Take a look to Europe and find the economic leader, then take at look at there importation and production rules.

Yes, didn't mean to use the word country at the start there. They are a replublic obviously (ROC). They have their own government and own elections and China (PRC) has never had any jurisdiction over Taiwan. There is contention over the validity of their existence due to removal of UN membership recognition. There is a very good reason for this. This is a direct result of China openly stating that it refuses to have diplomatic relations with any nation the officially regognises the ROC, and even goes to the length that all nations that it has diplomatic relations with make a statement regognising the PRC's right to its claims over Taiwan. Additionally the PRC's official policy is that it will use military force as a response to any formal declaration of Taiwanese independence, or in the event of a peaceful reunification being no longer viable. Even the US has been formally warned of economic sanction from the PRC due to the US's support of Taiwan and it's continued selling of weapons to the ROC.

Little wonder it is hard for them to be officially recognised. It would happen, likely at the expense of a major war.

I agree, our reliance on their products has only come out of a position of western business seeking to make more money in getting products made for less, and therefore a greater profit margin for them. As i have said in more than one post in this thread, we are to blame for continuing to buy their products.

 

[Matt81]

Well getting back to saws the Germans know nothing, the Swedes sure do!

Yeah. They sure do! I do like my Dolmars, but my heart will always be coloured Swedish orange! Ported 550XP only weeks away from getting held by my anxious hands.

 

[OnTheRoad]

Sad, but true, and it is getting worse. For example, the Dodd/Frank legislation is over 17,000 pages, and is estimated to be only half done. The legislation that will supposedly stop "too big to fail" is putting all the small banks out of business and resulting in an unprecedented # of mergers.

Unfortunately, the Gov has an insatiable appetite for regulations and spending money. In the local paper a few months ago, and elderly couple who bought a house in Scarsdale in the 60s are being re-assessed. Their property tax is going from $40,000 a yr to $80,000. I don't care how valuable their house is, when an elderly couple has to pay $80,000 a yr just to continue living where they are, there is something seriously wrong.

And with the mounting fiscal deficit (now $18 Trillion), stuff like this will be hitting lots of us soon, on the income tax side!

What kind of property has a $40,000 tax bill?