Certified Tree Risk Assessor

[treevet]

Whatever "they" decide....if they are ISA Certed TRACE, it will be a (commonly accepted as the standard in the industry) systematic evaluation with nothing missed or left for chance and considered with education and knowledge with many factors based on current science and a report with an overall rating given for the "owner to make the final decision".... as opposed to "uh oh, payment due on my double wide....and/or uh oh... bucket just broke down.......bad boy just gotta come down".

 

[BC WetCoast]

Take my comments here for what they are worth. I'm TRACE certified (have been for 3 years) as well as a CA among others.

A certification is only worth what the buying market perceives its worth to be. I'm the holder of a couple of certs, which provided great education, but the market did not perceive their value and they really did nothing for me.

However, in the case of the CA and TRACE it is different in our area. Of the 7 municipalities I work in on a weekly basis, 6 of them require a permit for tree removal. Size limits vary from 8" diameter to 24" diameter, but the permit is required and the fines for removing without a permit are extreme (up to $10,000). Is this good or bad? Doesn't matter, the government represents the MAJORITY of the people, so that must be what the people want. In order to get a tree removal permit, the applications must be accompanied by a CA Arborist report and if the justification for removal is hazard related then a TRACE analysis must be completed.

To play the game, you follow the rules.

So to refute the state, 'this is common sense',we don't need more certs. I will describe other professions. 120 years ago, medical doctors were often barbers as well. As our understanding of human anatomy and disease increased, the medical professon became more specialized. We as a society demanded more training and knowledge and more than that proof that a person had that knowledge and training. What happens when you try and practice medicine without a licence? See you in court.

My example is extreme, but we are becoming a society of 'experts'. Time to hop on the bandwagon.

Our province has recently started an apprenticeship program for working residential arborists which will lead to a journeyman ticket (like plumbers, electricians, mechanics). This has been pushed by the big boys of the industry Bartlett, Davey etc.

Those that get on here and pontificate about how bad certs are - just remember the story of King Canute (google it).

 

[tree MDS]

Whatever "they" decide....if they are ISA Certed TRACE, it will be a (commonly accepted as the standard in the industry) systematic evaluation with nothing missed or left for chance and considered with education and knowledge with many factors based on current science and a report with an overall rating given for the "owner to make the final decision".... as opposed to "uh oh, payment due on my double wide....and/or uh oh... bucket just broke down.......bad boy just gotta come down".

Oh yeah, and you're such the tree hugger.. I suppose that's why you got that crane with the funny outriggers. Lol, the BS is really piling up now.

 

[treevet]

Take my comments here for what they are worth. I'm TRACE certified (have been for 3 years) as well as a CA among others.

A certification is only worth what the buying market perceives its worth to be. I'm the holder of a couple of certs, which provided great education, but the market did not perceive their value and they really did nothing for me.

However, in the case of the CA and TRACE it is different in our area. Of the 7 municipalities I work in on a weekly basis, 6 of them require a permit for tree removal. Size limits vary from 8" diameter to 24" diameter, but the permit is required and the fines for removing without a permit are extreme (up to $10,000). Is this good or bad? Doesn't matter, the government represents the MAJORITY of the people, so that must be what the people want. In order to get a tree removal permit, the applications must be accompanied by a CA Arborist report and if the justification for removal is hazard related then a TRACE analysis must be completed.

To play the game, you follow the rules.

So to refute the state, 'this is common sense',we don't need more certs. I will describe other professions. 120 years ago, medical doctors were often barbers as well. As our understanding of human anatomy and disease increased, the medical professon became more specialized. We as a society demanded more training and knowledge and more than that proof that a person had that knowledge and training. What happens when you try and practice medicine without a licence? See you in court.

My example is extreme, but we are becoming a society of 'experts'. Time to hop on the bandwagon.

Our province has recently started an apprenticeship program for working residential arborists which will lead to a journeyman ticket (like plumbers, electricians, mechanics). This has been pushed by the big boys of the industry Bartlett, Davey etc.

Those that get on here and pontificate about how bad certs are - just remember the story of King Canute (google it).

Very nice post. That is what keeps me around here......

That and keeping some of ya guys in line. Hey, its a job, and somebody's gotta do it :help:

 

[lxt]

BC, its not complaining......."It is common sense", I highly doubt that the states are pushing for Tree Risk Certification.....Cmon, half the people dont even know what a CA is! Its not the people asking the Govt/States......Its the entities ISA & TCIA using member money to lobby for their own selfish agenda by making voluntary..........a requirement! Just wait...!

Doctors & barbers...........how about rancher & sherriff, there were alot of "double" lives especially in those days..........However, the comparison of this trade to that of health care is absurd! some might argue.......But, a hack tree service is abundant here...a hack Doctor goes to jail!! big difference!

I think what is being missed is the fact that Tree Risk Assessment & Hazards have been & are a basic 101 of anybody involved in the "hands On" part of this trade! Sorry, thats the facts!! (we dont need no more Certs) I was looking through my Arborist News magazine & a Tcia magazine & the Credentialing between the two is absolutely ridiculous!

C`mon: aerial lift specialist, climber specialist, "Accredited", CTSP, CA, BMCA, utility specialist, municipal specialist, certified tree worker, Tree risk assessor certification & I think there are a few more........Not to include "Arbor Master Training"( this is funny, think of stripes when bill murray says army training sir) those guys came out & put on a riggin class when i was in the Union....they got laughed off the site....we all walked away!

I remember joking about some of the above certs before they even became certs!! I can understand CA & BMCA...beyond that its all a bunch of BS & for the money.....plain & simple! Regardless of what is said Im sure this cert will become one & then another to follow & so on............Funny how in the current issue of arborist news they have a reply to a gentlemen in regards to "how many is enough" pertaining to CA`s.............so others & myself are not the only ones thinking its getting out of line!!!




LXT.....................

 

[ForTheArborist]

It may be nothing in the rural areas and small towns to have the certs because there are so many trees anyway, and because there are not so many slicksters with the saws and there tree service overheads. Even if you are just a starving slickster with a chainsaw and tree service overhead out there, there's so many trees to work on that you're going to some kind of work without ruining the tree world entirely.

The urban areas are different. Slicksters are born here, and the rest of the world watches for them to make the latest moves. You're either the slickest or you're the starving monkey without a life. And if you are slick, you are going to absolutely con a bunch of people into removing their great old city trees for no reason except that's a living and for pride.

Herds of urban, starving slicksters + chainsaws + old growth urban trees = urban tree genocide.

You start with certs, and you slow down the starving chainsaw rats swarming the tree service industry in the urban areas. You don't whine about how the new densely populated world needs to be ran the old way it was run without certifications. That talk is worth beans, and the rats/street tree hacks are taking down all the big trees. You would know this if you were current with the current state of urban small businesses like the urban contracting industry.

On the other hand though, keep smiting the certs because over whelming the industry with mandatory certs is not good either. Not sure that is so necessary though. Given exactly who tree service men are, I seriously doubt that anybody except tree service men (The sane ones) are going to implement more certs than are reasonably necessary because they cannot be as easily bent as the "money bag boys" can be that just want to play powerful over "chainsaw monkeys" and their money.

And, if this were too much fer yu 2 redd good, jus gimme a mesage that yu not reading so good. opcorn:

 

[jefflovstrom]

It may be nothing in the rural areas and small towns to have the certs because there are so many trees anyway, and because there are not so many slicksters with the saws and there tree service overheads. Even if you are just a starving slickster with a chainsaw and tree service overhead out there, there's so many trees to work on that you're going to some kind of work without ruining the tree world entirely.

The urban areas are different. Slicksters are born here, and the rest of the world watches for them to make the latest moves. You're either the slickest or you're the starving monkey without a life. And if you are slick, you are going to absolutely con a bunch of people into removing their great old city trees for no reason except that's a living and for pride.

Herds of urban, starving slicksters + chainsaws + old growth urban trees = urban tree genocide.

You start with certs, and you slow down the starving chainsaw rats swarming the tree service industry in the urban areas. You don't whine about how the new densely populated world needs to be ran the old way it was run without certifications. That talk is worth beans, and the rats/street tree hacks are taking down all the big trees. You would know this if you were current with the current state of urban small businesses like the urban contracting industry.

On the other hand though, keep smiting the certs because over whelming the industry with mandatory certs is not good either. Not sure that is so necessary though. Given exactly who tree service men are, I seriously doubt that anybody except tree service men (The sane ones) are going to implement more certs than are reasonably necessary because they cannot be as easily bent as the "money bag boys" can be that just want to play powerful over "chainsaw monkeys" and their money.

And, if this were too much fer yu 2 redd good, jus gimme a mesage that yu not reading so good. opcorn:

Hey FTA, I gave you a 'like' because , idk, wanna say 'Hi'? Come down to Sea Port Village on Tuesday. Off Pacific Highway. I will be there from 6am to 10am.
Jeff :msp_thumbup:
You give me a headache trying to figure out what you are saying.

 

[treeclimber101]

I was just reading a thread on TB and there is a tree with BLS and heavy damage , there are so called educated arborists that are actually recommending installing a cable and fertilizing it , But also insisting that the HO sign a waiver after they recommended keeping the tree , I mean does anyone believe that a HO wouldn't feel a bit betrayed 5 years later when you basically stole there money and ended with the tree being fed into the chipper ... I see the need for assessment in areas like parks and high population , but in a RES setting they have no place .....I can't agree anymore with every post of LXT's common sense ....

 

[lxt]

FTA....long winded & somewhat a hard read to put together there!

rats, streets, slicksters.............WTF, you been watching demolition man on HD again? I just drove by a competitor doing tree work an hour ago........not one cert he has & then you go into the city & there is the AA types...not a cert there either!!

All these Certs dont mean anything if no one has to have them in the first place, I had to register my biz with the Atty General`s office, have a slew of Certs, licenses, diplomas, etc.. all for the good of the fight......yeah right!!! then some grass cutter & his crew come in & BAM...........now their a tree service, no Certs, no nothing & making the same as me!

I say keep the CA & BMCA Cert.......upgrade the testing to truly reflect something worth a squat & then make that the standard, when any body can test (fresh outta school types), office help, utility personnel (required) & others that have no clue about the "hands on" part of the biz......then we will have way too many with a cert & no true knowledge!!!



LXT.......................

 

[ForTheArborist]

Hey FTA, I gave you a 'like' because , idk, wanna say 'Hi'? Come down to Sea Port Village on Tuesday. Off Pacific Highway. I will be there from 6am to 10am.
Jeff :msp_thumbup:
You give me a headache trying to figure out what you are saying.

I gotta pass on that.

The Home Depot boys can take care of you. They are fit and ready to fill the bill. opcorn:

 

[ForTheArborist]

Kidding

 

[treevet]

sometimes when you take the opposite side of a common sense issue agreed upon by a majority of intelligent people involved in the issue you can seem the rebel maybe in sort of a positive light. but once you go on and on about it blathering like a fool you sort of take on a deranged image. very thin line.

what this is all about is merely seeking or desiring perfection in professionalism. if you fall off a little in this quest you are still head and shoulders above those seeking or firmly established in mediocrity. i feel very sorry for those seeking/situated in mediocrity as they are far worse off than those fading into or mired in incompetence as those of mediocrity aren't ever forced out of it like the complete incompetents. what a miserable depressing life.

 

[treeseer]

Common sense #1: "Assessments have no place in residential settings." :confused2:

Tell that to 100s of my clients, who hire me to do just that.

Common sense #2: 'We all learned that assessment stuff when we learned how to be tree guys".



Common sense = "I don't have time to think about it--just cut it down."

It's easy to point to dead branches and call a tree a POS. It's harder to see the green branches and plan for future growth. But that's what arborists do.

"So to refute the state, 'this is common sense',we don't need more certs. I will describe other professions. 120 years ago, medical doctors were often barbers as well. As our understanding of human anatomy and disease increased, the medical profession became more specialized. We as a society demanded more training and knowledge and more than that proof that a person had that knowledge and training. What happens when you try and practice medicine without a licence? See you in court.

My example is extreme, but we are becoming a society of 'experts'. Time to hop on the bandwagon.
Our province has recently started an apprenticeship program for working residential arborists which will lead to a journeyman ticket (like plumbers, electricians, mechanics). This has been pushed by the big boys of the industry Bartlett, Davey etc.
Those that get on here and pontificate about how bad certs are - just remember the story of King Canute "

Good points. The tide is rising.

 

[lxt]

Oooooh, I keep seeing our trade being compared to the medical field..............BIG DIFFERENCE!!

Seer....you say hundred(s) of clients.........tell us! I gots ta know, how bad are their trees to justify a specialized Certification over & above being a CA or BMCA?......seriously? you reply only to certain parts of previous posts leaving the majority of important issues alone!!!

like it or not.............assessing the hazards & risks associated with trees has been an ongoing part of this job/trade for years & it is a "best guess" common sense issue, you can try to rationalize it with science & that is fine............but aint no one on here a scientist!!!!........so when using other professions to try & justify why this Cert is necessary.....how bout using this field?

I highly doubt that the "science" you guys are talking about will matter to the average home owner or city/twp as most in this current economy are strapped for money & any time Ive gotten bid requests & entered into the bid war.....Lowest BID always wins!!! They want a low cost provider plain & simple & as far as certs......Well, Ive bid for the Commonwealth & they have a CA on staff in each district (penndot) Ive bid for Pa DCNR & they have a CA on staff, bid for PA game Commision & ditto..........guess what? None of these entities cared about Certs.......just a low cost provider properly equipped, Insured & with the ability to adhere to the specifications set forth!!

This is why I complain about more Certs..........the ones I have mean nothing!!! I have lost all the Bids stated above to Non Certified contractors, I have pleaded my case & with no care from any of them..............Hell the gamelands contract I bid on had wetlands, streams & waterways..........the $7800.00 contractor dropped the tyrees in such & left em, I pitched a ##### & was told the waterways act did not have power in this setting, so if a federal/state mandated act has no power? well you figure it out!!...maybe certain states this Cert will be a prize???? but not here & I dont see it being an issue for a very long time!!!





LXT.................

 

[treeclimber101]

sometimes when you take the opposite side of a common sense issue agreed upon by a majority of intelligent people involved in the issue you can seem the rebel maybe in sort of a positive light. but once you go on and on about it blathering like a fool you sort of take on a deranged image. very thin line.

what this is all about is merely seeking or desiring perfection in professionalism. if you fall off a little in this quest you are still head and shoulders above those seeking or firmly established in mediocrity. i feel very sorry for those seeking/situated in mediocrity as they are far worse off than those fading into or mired in incompetence as those of mediocrity aren't ever forced out of it like the complete incompetents. what a miserable depressing life.

That seems to be a bit personal , but I can guarantee at 60 I won't be running a bunch of 3rd hand machines , I can be what I choose daily, go into debt as far as "I" want , and as far as education is concerned you not as far ahead of the curve as you want to believe , your knowledge is store bought and it shows really and I would take you on a "consultation" with me anytime you want I doubt that you or anyone else could wow me with anything ....and as far as the pole clipping tree expert I find a long winded post of nothing to say just as meaningless as a post of one single word

 

[treevet]

That seems to be a bit personal , but I can guarantee at 60 I won't be running a bunch of 3rd hand machines ,

99 percent of what is on here is "personal" opinions.

How can you GUARANTEE what you are running at 60? Guarantee....what a joke. You'd be amazed at my net worth. I wouldn't be amazed at your net worth. I am proud of my collection of equipment and knowledge. Some of you think it will be easy to get where I am at my age and it is just a natural progression for some of you yayhoos....not even close. Doubt any 2 man op does what I do and have done over my career. 2 man crew or even much larger.

By the time you reach 60 with an attitude like the following post, my guess is you will be in a very similar situation that you are in now, if you're even still in this business.

Personal reply....to a personal post.

 

[treevet]

The line is growing when it comes to quivering little ####### here 1st was OD and then TV and from time to time AA , and countless others who can't stand the truth ... Not me I know exactly how big of a fat loser I am one step away from the meth clinic and lucky to not be in jail yet ...

sad, very sad

 

[treeseer]

I highly doubt that the "science" you guys are talking about will matter to the average home owner or city/twp as most in this current economy ...This is why I complain about more Certs..........the ones I have mean nothing!!! .

lxt, sorry that in your chosen market selling your chosen services they are not working out. For many others they are working well. Many client$ know the difference, and understand that science is not rationalization, and that a well-founded systematic assessment is better than a "common sense" gut call. But wahtever, if you are doing fine without them, what is there to complain about?

 

[Bigus Termitius]

what a thread....

What I see are some good (and bad) points on all fronts, some better than others, but even some good points are squelched with playground antics, which is only counter productive. When you are up against an "establishment" you can NOT afford to sound like a hayseed, even when you're right. Likewise, when you are insisting on educational elitism, you need to play the part.

Not to say all are guilty....there are some awesome posts from all quarters.

Right or wrong, I'm all for these private regulation entities. The goverment, in this day and age, is a failure at best. We don't want that, IMHO. However, if they are not careful, their(private entities) influence can be diluted by the obvious failures greed and excessiveness will breed.

Where does that leave us?

Well, we might think about finding a tolerable middle ground where we can gain some soulidarity amongst us, or face the clipboards of wrath.....

.....the geek squads will have no mercy.

Hey Guy, some sweet input....as usual.

 

[Pelorus]

99 percent of what is on here is "personal" opinions.

How can you GUARANTEE what you are running at 60? Guarantee....what a joke. You'd be amazed at my net worth. I wouldn't be amazed at your net worth. I am proud of my collection of equipment and knowledge. Some of you think it will be easy to get where I am at my age and it is just a natural progression for some of you yayhoos....not even close. Doubt any 2 man op does what I do and have done over my career. 2 man crew or even much larger.

By the time you reach 60 with an attitude like the following post, my guess is you will be in a very similar situation that you are in now, if you're even still in this business.

Personal reply....to a personal post.

That is an amazing post.
Makes me feel like I'm in the presence of an arboricultural Albert Schweitzer. or Superman.
OTOH, I've heard that it is best to never try to argue with an idiot. Cause they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.