a general felling wedge question, simple question, complex answers =P

[HuskStihl]

[ya , unfortunately, I've beat over more timber than more than 90% of the people on this forum. Long devision is not something very many fallers do when it comes to putting wood on the ground. If u have enough mental acquity to do it, come beat wedges for me. Miss your calculations and you will work so hard you won't be able to talk let alone think. .

If Bob or Randy or Cody or Sam or Pac or Shaun or huskstihl (that guy's a loggin monster), or Blitzer,mass wine guy, or Dano, etc. Wants to argue the point with me, OK, I'll listen. May even learn something. There's ALOTthat goes into falling every tree. And when a guy has fell enough hundreds of thousands of them he learns most of it. But, a guy can still learn. Just that there isn't a lot more that I WANT to learn about beating wedges. :msp_angry:

Fixed your quote. You deserve more respect for your abilities, and experiences than you will likely receive in this thread. Best of luck. Reminds me of the time I told bob the gas went Inside the saw, but his inner child must be a real mean lil' ####er, and he/it kicked my ass!

 

[tramp bushler]

:msp_scared::msp_biggrin:

 

[tramp bushler]

Wow, this is 101 , I thot we were over on the loggin side.

 

[HuskStihl]

the reason i say complex answer, i mean, definitively... cause im wondering, using wedges, how much lean is too much, when you need it to fall the opposite direction, or even at a 45 to the lean? I know there is no convention here, and every tree is different with too many variables to take into account, but im more interested in just picking some of those more experienced brains out there... so lets paint with broad brushes, and speak in general terms, because it does have its uses i guess. we all want to be safe and not risk injury, but its a good tool especially when used correctly and safely. So lets hear it, whats the worst lean you've seen be corrected with wedges? Maybe you got a "how not to wedge" story, lets hear that too... gimme your favorite sizes, your go-to's, your specialty wedge, ect....

Wow, this is 101 , I thot we were over on the loggin side.

What we've got here is failure to communicate.. Reason being the laws of physics are radically different in the arborist 101 and homeowner helper forums than in the logging forum. The main difference is the prevalence of a special gravitational force known as the "ohi####editup" attraction. It has several rules, most are way
beyond the scope of this discussion, but I'll try to summarize and keep it simple.

1) a tree will always fall towards the object of greatest financial worth. This can get complicated if any of the objects of value are in motion, but for the purposes of this discussion, we will assume they're not. But they could be, like the bosses new f250 he's so proud of.

2) trees are about 50' taller than they appear, and even the final leaf or needle is capable of inflicting catastrophic damage on a object of value

3) wedges only make this situation worse by having the tree initially start moving away from the object of value. This gives a nice false sense of security, but is in actuality just allowing the tree to accrue nascent energy to cause more damage to the object of value.

4) this law generally affects the natural inhabitants of the 101 and helper forum (myself included), and anyone on the chainsaw forum who thinks cc's are more important than brains/experience. Denizens of the logging forum prolly wouldn't try to wedge a decent leaner away from something expensive, but I don't know that for sure.

5) Jolly made the mistake of assuming a west coast logger probably didn't know anything about cutting down trees, but he seems like a good guy, apologized for any insult quickly, and did Texas proud. Looking back at my posts, 2% seem good, 27% are just wrong,31% make no sense, and the remaining 40% are apologies!

 

[Gologit]

Denizens of the logging forum prolly wouldn't try to wedge a decent leaner away from something expensive, but I don't know that for sure.

We might. If we had to. Usually when you engage in a lot of wedge beating it indicates one of two things...you either read the tree wrong and now you're going to work until you're blue in the face beating on wedges and hoping they solve your problem....or you should have packed your jacks down with you but you didn't and now you're wishing you had but it's too far back up to the truck so you're doubling up and hoping you don't run out of wedges before you run out of tree and wishing that you'd taken up dairy farming or something sensible instead of being a faller.

Neither scenario is a whole lot of fun. Not that it's ever happened to me or anything.

 

[Trx250r180]

on the plumb bob part Tramp was talking about ,a retired faller pulled me aside one day ,told me to hold my axe out in front of me like a plumb bob and look at the tree to judge the lean ,very simple ,but i would have never thought of it till he pulled me aside ,iv'e actually used it on a few bent trees with success now ,you can eyeball the 10 degrees or so with this method also

 

[Dogbyte]

on the plumb bob part Tramp was talking about ,a retired faller pulled me aside one day ,told me to hold my axe out in front of me like a plumb bob and look at the tree to judge the lean ,very simple ,but i would have never thought of it till he pulled me aside ,iv'e actually used it on a few bent trees with success now ,you can eyeball the 10 degrees or so with this method also

well good thing he pulled you aside, instead of you asking... if you asked what a plumb bob was, he might have told you dont bother :bang:


Seriously though, sounds like a good guy to learn from, i like to bug those guys with lots of questions before they are gone. Had the same thing happen to me where someone showed me how to use a speed square to judge the height of a tree, ive used the stick trick before, same principle (tangent of a 45 deg angle = 1), but the square was easier and more accurate that what i could do with the stick.

 

[Trx250r180]

well good thing he pulled you aside, instead of you asking... if you asked what a plumb bob was, he might have told you dont bother :bang:


Seriously though, sounds like a good guy to learn from, i like to bug those guys with lots of questions before they are gone. Had the same thing happen to me where someone showed me how to use a speed square to judge the height of a tree, ive used the stick trick before, same principle (tangent of a 45 deg angle = 1), but the square was easier and more accurate that what i could do with the stick.

never heard the speedy square thing yet ,i will have to try it out see how close i can get :msp_thumbsup:

 

[TheJollyLogger]

What we've got here is failure to communicate.. Reason being the laws of physics are radically different in the arborist 101 and homeowner helper forums than in the logging forum. The main difference is the prevalence of a special gravitational force known as the "ohi####editup" attraction. It has several rules, most are way
beyond the scope of this discussion, but I'll try to summarize and keep it simple.

1) a tree will always fall towards the object of greatest financial worth. This can get complicated if any of the objects of value are in motion, but for the purposes of this discussion, we will assume they're not. But they could be, like the bosses new f250 he's so proud of.

2) trees are about 50' taller than they appear, and even the final leaf or needle is capable of inflicting catastrophic damage on a object of value

3) wedges only make this situation worse by having the tree initially start moving away from the object of value. This gives a nice false sense of security, but is in actuality just allowing the tree to accrue nascent energy to cause more damage to the object of value.

4) this law generally affects the natural inhabitants of the 101 and helper forum (myself included), and anyone on the chainsaw forum who thinks cc's are more important than brains/experience. Denizens of the logging forum prolly wouldn't try to wedge a decent leaner away from something expensive, but I don't know that for sure.

5) Jolly made the mistake of assuming a west coast logger probably didn't know anything about cutting down trees, but he seems like a good guy, apologized for any insult quickly, and did Texas proud. Looking back at my posts, 2% seem good, 27% are just wrong,31% make no sense, and the remaining 40% are apologies!

Yes, my mistake was reading the post on my tiny little phone screen, thought he said 15" not 15°. I absolutely agree with your arborist rules. In an urban setting, I feel like wedges have the most use in keeping the kerf open and helping the rope, but it is also a tool every faller should have. After the fires down here my experience with wedging really came in handy and sped up production. Most of the guys I was working with had no experience wedging trees over, and wanted to set a rope in everything. When you've got 60 or 70 burnt pines to get down and nothing but a slab left on the property being able to judge lean can save a lot of time. As far as the section formula goes I do think it's a good starting point for a beginning arborist to use until he gets like tramp and can judge it as he's walking up to the tree.

 

[Dogbyte]

What we've got here is failure to communicate.. Reason being the laws of physics are radically different in the arborist 101 and homeowner helper forums than in the logging forum. The main difference is the prevalence of a special gravitational force known as the "ohi####editup" attraction. It has several rules, most are way
beyond the scope of this discussion, but I'll try to summarize and keep it simple.

1) a tree will always fall towards the object of greatest financial worth. This can get complicated if any of the objects of value are in motion, but for the purposes of this discussion, we will assume they're not. But they could be, like the bosses new f250 he's so proud of.

2) trees are about 50' taller than they appear, and even the final leaf or needle is capable of inflicting catastrophic damage on a object of value

3) wedges only make this situation worse by having the tree initially start moving away from the object of value. This gives a nice false sense of security, but is in actuality just allowing the tree to accrue nascent energy to cause more damage to the object of value.

4) this law generally affects the natural inhabitants of the 101 and helper forum (myself included), and anyone on the chainsaw forum who thinks cc's are more important than brains/experience. Denizens of the logging forum prolly wouldn't try to wedge a decent leaner away from something expensive, but I don't know that for sure.

5) Jolly made the mistake of assuming a west coast logger probably didn't know anything about cutting down trees, but he seems like a good guy, apologized for any insult quickly, and did Texas proud. Looking back at my posts, 2% seem good, 27% are just wrong,31% make no sense, and the remaining 40% are apologies!

well, i might put it a little different, i'd say the laws of physics are the same, and thats the crux of most problems. Folks without experience testing those laws without having a better picture of what the outcome will be. no matter which forum it is, the laws are the same, its folks use of them that are different, and i know that was the point you were also making. knowing when you've made a mistake is the difference, hence the reason for the questions....some folks want to prevent mistakes, asking questions is part of that process i'd say.

 

[tramp bushler]

OK.
Now see, I told ya I may even learn something. . .

How do you use a Speed Square to get the height of a tree??? ???
?????????????????????

I have never in my life heard anything about using a speed square to get the height of a tree. And since I'm also a carpenter I have a box of speed squares.

 

[Dogbyte]

OK.
Now see, I told ya I may even learn something. . .

How do you use a Speed Square to get the height of a tree??? ???
?????????????????????

I have never in my life heard anything about using a speed square to get the height of a tree. And since I'm also a carpenter I have a box of speed squares.

imagine a right angle. whenever the distance of the two legs are equal, you have a 45 degree angle of the hypotenuse, the long 3rd member of the triangle. holding that speed square up to your eye, will align you along that hypotenuse. So whether your standing on a ladder, standing up, kneeling down or laying flat on your back, as long as you hold the square level, sighting down the square will put you on this 1 for 1 plane, where the top of the sight is the tree tops, and the bottom of the sights (if you were to look the other way) would hit the ground, at an equal distance, from both ends. You just have to realize that if you are standing, then you are basically standing IN FRONT of that point on the ground by an amount equal from your feet to your eyes. If you were on a ladder, you'd have to add the height of the ladder, ect.... if you were laying flat on your back, your head would more than likely be resting on the ground the same distance away from the trunk as the tree tops.

folks do this with a stick and its the same principle. you have to snap off a stick the length between your eyes and your hand, then sight up the hypotenuse and put the tree tops on the tip of the stick. Its the same as the speed square, without being able to see the already made 45 degree angle. Both will probably yield the same results, but im better with the square than i am with the stick. Its hard for me to judge how level im holding the stick up with my line of sight (to my eyes). If you hold it too high or too low, then your 45 angle will become more than 45, or less than 45, thereby breaking the 1:1 principle of the right triangle. So its easier for me if i have a square to keep me aligned. its easier because of my own shortcomings... lack of experience with a stick.

that make any sense at all? LOL

 

[Dogbyte]

View attachment 292066

 

[Trx250r180]

imagine a right angle. whenever the distance of the two legs are equal, you have a 45 degree angle of the hypotenuse, the long 3rd member of the triangle. holding that speed square up to your eye, will align you along that hypotenuse. So whether your standing on a ladder, standing up, kneeling down or laying flat on your back, as long as you hold the square level, sighting down the square will put you on this 1 for 1 plane, where the top of the sight is the tree tops, and the bottom of the sights (if you were to look the other way) would hit the ground, at an equal distance, from both ends. You just have to realize that if you are standing, then you are basically standing IN FRONT of that point on the ground by an amount equal from your feet to your eyes. If you were on a ladder, you'd have to add the height of the ladder, ect.... if you were laying flat on your back, your head would more than likely be resting on the ground the same distance away from the trunk as the tree tops.

folks do this with a stick and its the same principle. you have to snap off a stick the length between your eyes and your hand, then sight up the hypotenuse and put the tree tops on the tip of the stick. Its the same as the speed square, without being able to see the already made 45 degree angle. Both will probably yield the same results, but im better with the square than i am with the stick. Its hard for me to judge how level im holding the stick up with my line of sight (to my eyes). If you hold it too high or too low, then your 45 angle will become more than 45, or less than 45, thereby breaking the 1:1 principle of the right triangle. So its easier for me if i have a square to keep me aligned. its easier because of my own shortcomings... lack of experience with a stick.

that make any sense at all? LOL

sounds like too much work ,seems quicker to just drop the tree and walk down it with my spencer tape

 

[Dogbyte]

sounds like too much work ,seems quicker to just drop the tree and walk down it with my spencer tape

your probably right, but it makes me feel better knowing the tree tops is 20ft away from a fence, or just eyeballing it. its pretty simple, im probably explaining it where it sounds complicated. all i do is hold the square up to my eyes, and move around til i have the tree tops in sight, then turn around, and look on the ground about 6ft away (im 6ft), thats your spot.

 

[TheJollyLogger]

sounds like too much work ,seems quicker to just drop the tree and walk down it with my spencer tape

It is kind of nice to know whether the fence or shed or house is gonna get hit, or whether we have to move that 300 pound birdbath or not.

 

[Dogbyte]

haha, he was right though, i probably did make it sound like a lot of work.

 

[tramp bushler]

OK. Now I get it.

I go by the ( will it hit me) method.
I go stand by what I don't want to hit and look up at the tree. If it will hit me then I know it. If I'm in the clear then I know that. Then I account for stuff flying. Cutting a strip with other cutters beside me I've gotten pretty good at knowing if I'm about to die so I just carry that over to arborist work.

But I will take a speed square and work with it.
Thanks for the explanation!!!!
I never thot of using one in that way.

 

[Trx250r180]

so if your in the woods with no speed square couldn't you use your axe ? hold it out in front of your sight top and bottom of tree ,then tip it like a tree falling and get close results ?

 

[Dogbyte]

OK. Now I get it.

I go by the ( will it hit me) method.
I go stand by what I don't want to hit and look up at the tree. If it will hit me then I know it. If I'm in the clear then I know that. Then I account for stuff flying. Cutting a strip with other cutters beside me I've gotten pretty good at knowing if I'm about to die so I just carry that over to arborist work.

But I will take a speed square and work with it.
Thanks for the explanation!!!!
I never thot of using one in that way.

just this past weekend. i cut down a gum tree and i just dropped it the way it wanted to go anyway...but low and behold, my wife comes out and says "that not gonna hit the house?", i says..."well its not even going to fall that direction, but even if it did...the house is too far away".

So i go and grab the speed square to measure it. So im standing there showing her by pointing at the ground, the height of the tree...she says with squinted eyes, "whatever you dont know that for sure". So to prove it to her, i walked over to where i was gonna fall the tree, did the same measurement, and dug a line with my boot in the dirt. After the tree fell, my mark about 2ft too long (maybe because i wasnt holding it exactly level), but thats close enough for me! She ate some crow, and we had a good laugh.